Maybe we should work together?

[link821]

Before I get blasted out of the sky with this hot take, maybe let’s take a moment to think about how both AC mainline pilots and Jazz pilots share a common “enemy”. Both groups are dealing with the same bean counters that refuse to recognize that the times have changed. Yes, we are different companies, with different contracts and priorities but maybe we can find some ways to stand together and for the betterment of both groups. I’m tired of pilot groups pointing fingers at each other.

[flyer 1492]

This should have happened 30 years ago. Pilots don't realize the power in numbers they have.

[link821]

This should have happened 30 years ago. Pilots don't realize the power in numbers they have.

No time like the present

[tailgunner]

What do propose?

[Pcpilot12]

I’m all ears, let’s do it

[canadian_aviator_4]

Hopefully something changes, but from previous experience as soon as jazz pilots go to ac they could care less about jazz.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Hopefully something changes, but from previous experience as soon as jazz pilots go to ac they could care less about jazz.

Yup… jazz who?

[smooth]

If you let Jazz pilots vote today, for -20% pay cut but 100% flow to AC. They will still vote YES

[sportingrifle]

Link….
Working together implies potential mutual benefits.
I can think of a lot of items that mainline pilots could spend negotiating capital on that would benefit Jazz pilots. What could Jazz pilots spend their negotiating capital on (if they could actually negotiate) that would benefit mainline pilots?

[Fidget]

This should have happened 30 years ago. Pilots don't realize the power in numbers they have.

Almost happened 16 years ago. Global solutions. Agreement in place but a few greedy jazz ALPA pricks f’d the whole thing. Pretty sure some are on here. Thanks to those ALPA guys the ship has sailed.

[cdnavater]

If you let Jazz pilots vote today, for -20% pay cut but 100% flow to AC. They will still vote YES

First of all, umm NO! I have no desire to go to AC in my last years and I think you underestimate what’s going on out there.
At this point any agreement between Jazz pilots and AC is worth the paper it’s on, they have not abided by any agreement so far, I seriously doubt anyone would think this time will be different.
If the vote was the other way, 20% increase, we would vote the flow into the trash where it belongs, I would wipe my ass with anything AC “agreed” to, seemingly unenforceable!

[Man_in_the_sky]

Hopefully something changes, but from previous experience as soon as jazz pilots go to ac they could care less about jazz.

I mean, even the Jazz senior group don't care about the junior Jazz group..

[RippleRock]

Link….
Working together implies potential mutual benefits.
I can think of a lot of items that mainline pilots could spend negotiating capital on that would benefit Jazz pilots. What could Jazz pilots spend their negotiating capital on (if they could actually negotiate) that would benefit mainline pilots?

Still using the term "bargaining capital"? It's like we have something to trade that has value. Newsflash----- ITS ALL GONE.

The days of horse trading crap for other crap is OVER. Gains across the board. FULL STOP. No more "gives".

[sportingrifle]

Ripplerock…
Bargaining capital is not the same as concessionary or zero costs bargaining. But it still exists, and we have a LOT more of it than we used to, but also not an infinite amount.

So back to my original question, what does “working together” look like and what is in it for each party?

[RippleRock]

Ripplerock…
Bargaining capital is not the same as concessionary or zero costs bargaining. But it still exists, and we have a LOT more of it than we used to, but also not an infinite amount.

So back to my original question, what does “working together” look like and what is in it for each party?

No clue what you said......we're on different pages obviously.

No worries, carry on.

[ellinas]

So when can we expect anything happening for the better? Next 2-3-4-6 months ?

[ant_321]

So when can we expect anything happening for the better? Next 2-3-4-6 months ?

Keep counting. AC isn’t going to budge until the mainline pilots contract negotiations are complete in my opinion.

[cdnavater]

Before SR and GGN, Jazz was the only allowed tier two provider, when that was given away, the landscape changed and the race to the bottom went full steam ahead.
We, Jazz pilots had no leverage and have spent years of zero sum bargaining trying to rid ourselves of SR and GGN only to find ourselves back in the same spot, AC starting another whipsaw group even though Jazz had exclusive rights for two more years.
Why, because it’s not in your scope anymore and a reasonable person could see Jazz is not able to fulfill its obligations, 100% due to a situation that AC created but nonetheless any potential legal fight Jazz could launch would be met with AC saying we had to, Jazz was not keeping up their end.
AC just recently squashed an agreement that Jazz pilots and Jazz agreed to, however since wages are a pass through expense, they have the final say. Why would AC do this? Well according to the union, their assumption is AC would not give Jazz pilots any meaningful increase while negotiations are ongoing with AC pilots, obviously it would set a precedent.
My thoughts on working together is AC pilots put exclusive scope for Jazz back in the contract and even set a minimum wage that regional flying could be paid, tie it to yours in someway.
This would shore up the potential whipsaw between groups but in all honesty, with Jazz having the long term deal and no way to realistically prevent others from undercutting us, the only leverage we have is the fact we can’t staff the airline and even that doesn’t seem to phase management. Would love to help you out and in a round about way we are, it’s not like AC could get us to do a bunch more work if you strike, lol. We can’t even cover the work we have now, AC saying no to raises for us ensured more will leave and less will come here, so there’s that.
Good luck boys and girls, take ‘‘em to the cleaners, I will happily cheer you on!

[rudder]

So when can we expect anything happening for the better? Next 2-3-4-6 months ?

Depends. Mainline or Jazz?

Mainline will likely be in bargaining for the maximum legal duration under the Canada Labour Code. So change at AC will not happen before spring/summer 2024.

And Jazz? Unless the Jazz pilots blink and accept the AC ‘discussion pay table’, it is likely that 100% status quo will prevail for at least the remainder of 2023, if not well in to 2024. By then, there won’t be many Jazz pilots left that are not in the top 50% of the list or 250 hour bare commercial licence. And even quite a few of the top 50% are looking elsewhere.

AC is looking at 25-40% pay uplift at mainline. They can delay it, but it is coming. And it will be retroactive to the early termination date on the CBA.

Timing is everything. The lack of action (other than suspending flow) has left Jazz as little more than a training institution for entry level pilots. And even training resources are drying up due to attrition and lack of volunteerism under current training overrides.

Companies have choices about being progressive or regressive. It appears that Jazz management tried to be progressive. But they needed an ally. They didn’t find one.

[Rowdy]

The step to ALPA and proper discussions amongst both MEC's is a step in the right direction. Hopefully they keep up the good relation and we both help each other out and don't step on each others toes.

DO NOT LET AC OR CHR MANAGEMENT WHIPSAW US ANYMORE.

[cjp]

If you let Jazz pilots vote today, for -20% pay cut but 100% flow to AC. They will still vote YES

First of all, umm NO! I have no desire to go to AC in my last years and I think you underestimate what’s going on out there.
At this point any agreement between Jazz pilots and AC is worth the paper it’s on, they have not abided by any agreement so far, I seriously doubt anyone would think this time will be different.
If the vote was the other way, 20% increase, we would vote the flow into the trash where it belongs, I would wipe my ass with anything AC “agreed” to, seemingly unenforceable!

I'm thinking you would need more than 20% increase to keep the lights on - likely closer to 100%.

[cdnavater]

If you let Jazz pilots vote today, for -20% pay cut but 100% flow to AC. They will still vote YES

First of all, umm NO! I have no desire to go to AC in my last years and I think you underestimate what’s going on out there.
At this point any agreement between Jazz pilots and AC is worth the paper it’s on, they have not abided by any agreement so far, I seriously doubt anyone would think this time will be different.
If the vote was the other way, 20% increase, we would vote the flow into the trash where it belongs, I would wipe my ass with anything AC “agreed” to, seemingly unenforceable!

I'm thinking you would need more than 20% increase to keep the lights on - likely closer to 100%.

That will never happen, it would be much cheaper to run a 220 half full than double our wages. They will shrink us to whatever can be managed before they even think about the 20% never mind 100%

[Fanblade]

First of all, umm NO! I have no desire to go to AC in my last years and I think you underestimate what’s going on out there.
At this point any agreement between Jazz pilots and AC is worth the paper it’s on, they have not abided by any agreement so far, I seriously doubt anyone would think this time will be different.
If the vote was the other way, 20% increase, we would vote the flow into the trash where it belongs, I would wipe my ass with anything AC “agreed” to, seemingly unenforceable!

I'm thinking you would need more than 20% increase to keep the lights on - likely closer to 100%.

That will never happen, it would be much cheaper to run a 220 half full than double our wages. They will shrink us to whatever can be managed before they even think about the 20% never mind 100%

Let’s emphasize a few truths.

-AC won’t operate at a loss. They will find a way to operate and make money or drop the route.

-No AC aircraft including the A220 has a (BELF) break even load factor of half full.

-Pilot cost as a percent of CASM is relatively small. It does however increase as the aircraft gets smaller which is a factor here.

-Yes upgauging is an option. Less frequency larger aircraft. But for that to happen you need frequency in the first place. Canada is not the US Eastern seaboard. How many Jazz routes are high frequency enough to realistically upgauge? There are some. YYJ-YVR for example. Maybe YVR-YLW.

-Fact is AC still needs a regional. That isn’t changing. Will it be smaller? Yes. But they still need one. That means they have to pay the going rate. Whatever that rate is will be set by the market and not AC. As the single legacy, they are addicted to cheap pilots and the ability to recruit them with a 777 as a carrot rather than pay. It’s over. They will fight tooth and nail to keep the Canadian discount. But eventually they will do what is required to run their business

[rudder]

But eventually they will do what is required to run their business

SKV/GGN/PAL.

Yes, they will.

[Fanblade]

But eventually they will do what is required to run their business

SKV/GGN/PAL.

Yes, they will.

If the choice to create alternative CPA carriers is about pilot costs, then the choice is flawed in todays market. When there were a lot of pilots out there the strategy worked. One could argue it worked so well that they blew their own foot off as it created the current exodus at Jazz.

The PAL CPA is simply AC trying to run away from pilot market forces. It won’t work in any major way and they know it. PAL is more about creating a burning platform so that they can get a better deal from you. Fear is the motivating factor.

Wait them out. There is a line somewhere where they will cry uncle. We won’t know where it is until you trip on it.