ogopogo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:34 pm Doesn't one just slide over with one's YOS??

Crewbunk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:44 pm

ogopogo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:34 pm Doesn't one just slide over with one's YOS??

At some airlines, yes.

But, for example, 20 YOS might get you close to the top of right seat 777, it would only get you barely half way in the left seat. There will always be a quality of lifestyle change going from F/O to CA. (Unless you were going F/O 777 to CA A220).

rudder wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 3:08 pm

Crewbunk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:44 pm

ogopogo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:34 pm Doesn't one just slide over with one's YOS??

At some airlines, yes.

But, for example, 20 YOS might get you close to the top of right seat 777, it would only get you barely half way in the left seat. There will always be a quality of lifestyle change going from F/O to CA. (Unless you were going F/O 777 to CA A220).

Plus take a look at marginal tax rates.

In most provinces you will keep less than 45% of the uplift.

cjp wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:47 pm

rudder wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 3:08 pm

Crewbunk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:44 pm

At some airlines, yes.

But, for example, 20 YOS might get you close to the top of right seat 777, it would only get you barely half way in the left seat. There will always be a quality of lifestyle change going from F/O to CA. (Unless you were going F/O 777 to CA A220).

Plus take a look at marginal tax rates.

In most provinces you will keep less than 45% of the uplift.

I don't get the tax argument. A major raise is a major raise. Most pilot's making 6 figures are paying an average tax rate between 25-40.6%.

Yes you are paying a boatload of tax - if can take advantage of an RRSP you can reduce the pain a little, but end of the day you are making more money, and you are gaining experience that trascends companies.

cjp wrote:
Yes you are paying a boatload of tax - if can take advantage of an RRSP you can reduce the pain a little, but end of the day you are making more money, and you are gaining experience that trascends companies.

cdnavater wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:46 pm

cjp wrote:
Yes you are paying a boatload of tax - if can take advantage of an RRSP you can reduce the pain a little, but end of the day you are making more money, and you are gaining experience that trascends companies.

Can you tell me how the experience gained transcends companies?
I’m curious because, at every airline I’m aware of including in the U.S, you start at the bottom regardless if you have 20,000 or 2000 hrs, right seat or left seat time.
If you’re at your career airline, believe me, I would take 250k for lifestyle over 300k for experience!

cdnavater wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:46 pm

cjp wrote:
Yes you are paying a boatload of tax - if can take advantage of an RRSP you can reduce the pain a little, but end of the day you are making more money, and you are gaining experience that trascends companies.

Can you tell me how the experience gained transcends companies?
I’m curious because, at every airline I’m aware of including in the U.S, you start at the bottom regardless if you have 20,000 or 2000 hrs, right seat or left seat time.
If you’re at your career airline, believe me, I would take 250k for lifestyle over 300k for experience!

cjp wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 7:21 pm

cdnavater wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:46 pm

cjp wrote:
Yes you are paying a boatload of tax - if can take advantage of an RRSP you can reduce the pain a little, but end of the day you are making more money, and you are gaining experience that trascends companies.

Can you tell me how the experience gained transcends companies?
I’m curious because, at every airline I’m aware of including in the U.S, you start at the bottom regardless if you have 20,000 or 2000 hrs, right seat or left seat time.
If you’re at your career airline, believe me, I would take 250k for lifestyle over 300k for experience!

Olive branch, I'll give it to you that at many legacy North American unionized carriers, DEC is unheard of. They will typically promote from within.

That said, who is a company more willing and excited to hire? Even if the FO had slightly more time, it's not going to be an FO. It'll be the Captains who generally get the first call. There are many international carriers that pay very well, that put you directly in the left seat with the right experience - FOs need not apply. Typically they require one of two things, 500 PIC on type or a few thousand hours PIC on similar weight and category. Delta between FO and Capt salary is significant. In the U.S smaller regionals are paying 100k day 0 for EXPERIENCED and typed Part 121 Captains, while experienced instructor pilots can earn north of 400+/hr.

Just because experience isn't valued at the most visible North American legacy carriers (Air Canada, American, Delta and United), it doesn't mean it isn't valued elsewhere in the world.

fixnfly wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 1:35 pm Is the same thing happening at AC at all? Are there a lot of guys/gals who want to stay FO/RP for lifestyle reasons for the foreseeable future or are the majority still looking to upgrade fairly quickly?

fish4life wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:17 pm I’ve seen airlines have forced upgrades in reverse seniority order for those qualified so junior pilots at the company with the experience may be forced into those left seats anyway ironically enough

cdnavater wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 8:33 pm

cjp wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 7:21 pm

cdnavater wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:46 pm

Can you tell me how the experience gained transcends companies?
I’m curious because, at every airline I’m aware of including in the U.S, you start at the bottom regardless if you have 20,000 or 2000 hrs, right seat or left seat time.
If you’re at your career airline, believe me, I would take 250k for lifestyle over 300k for experience!

Olive branch, I'll give it to you that at many legacy North American unionized carriers, DEC is unheard of. They will typically promote from within.

That said, who is a company more willing and excited to hire? Even if the FO had slightly more time, it's not going to be an FO. It'll be the Captains who generally get the first call. There are many international carriers that pay very well, that put you directly in the left seat with the right experience - FOs need not apply. Typically they require one of two things, 500 PIC on type or a few thousand hours PIC on similar weight and category. Delta between FO and Capt salary is significant. In the U.S smaller regionals are paying 100k day 0 for EXPERIENCED and typed Part 121 Captains, while experienced instructor pilots can earn north of 400+/hr.

Just because experience isn't valued at the most visible North American legacy carriers (Air Canada, American, Delta and United), it doesn't mean it isn't valued elsewhere in the world.

Sure but we are talking legacy airline paying huge money in the right seat, these pilots are neither interested in going to Dubai or wherever nor disruption to their lifestyle for a left seat.
WJ used to almost force FOs to bid left seat the day they could hold it, they would go back to step 1 when they did and delaying it didn’t change that. They also had a socialized bidding so lifestyle was basically the same.
Now, I’m not too sure about the bidding, I know there is seniority for reserve but not sure about schedule. So, with YOS carry over to the left seat if they lose any lifestyle, you will see some stay right seat.
The fix would be a socialized bidding but that will meet resistance from more senior pilots so maybe a hybrid where the bottom 30% of the roster share the pain, creative solutions will need to happen especially with that kind of money to just sit in the right forever!
Maybe you’ll see legacy carriers hiring DECs if the positions go unfulfilled, if AC gets rid of flat pay and the money is good, you might see infilled spots there too.

cjp wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 7:57 am
I would much rather be in the left seat than the right for marketability and getting that paycheque premium to go along with it.

cjp wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 7:57 am

cdnavater wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 8:33 pm

cjp wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 7:21 pm

Olive branch, I'll give it to you that at many legacy North American unionized carriers, DEC is unheard of. They will typically promote from within.

That said, who is a company more willing and excited to hire? Even if the FO had slightly more time, it's not going to be an FO. It'll be the Captains who generally get the first call. There are many international carriers that pay very well, that put you directly in the left seat with the right experience - FOs need not apply. Typically they require one of two things, 500 PIC on type or a few thousand hours PIC on similar weight and category. Delta between FO and Capt salary is significant. In the U.S smaller regionals are paying 100k day 0 for EXPERIENCED and typed Part 121 Captains, while experienced instructor pilots can earn north of 400+/hr.

Just because experience isn't valued at the most visible North American legacy carriers (Air Canada, American, Delta and United), it doesn't mean it isn't valued elsewhere in the world.

Sure but we are talking legacy airline paying huge money in the right seat, these pilots are neither interested in going to Dubai or wherever nor disruption to their lifestyle for a left seat.
WJ used to almost force FOs to bid left seat the day they could hold it, they would go back to step 1 when they did and delaying it didn’t change that. They also had a socialized bidding so lifestyle was basically the same.
Now, I’m not too sure about the bidding, I know there is seniority for reserve but not sure about schedule. So, with YOS carry over to the left seat if they lose any lifestyle, you will see some stay right seat.
The fix would be a socialized bidding but that will meet resistance from more senior pilots so maybe a hybrid where the bottom 30% of the roster share the pain, creative solutions will need to happen especially with that kind of money to just sit in the right forever!
Maybe you’ll see legacy carriers hiring DECs if the positions go unfulfilled, if AC gets rid of flat pay and the money is good, you might see infilled spots there too.

Are we talking legacy? What happens when big red lays off? I'm talking days when the industry takes a little break off it's growth cycle, which for the moment it doesn't look like it's pumping the brakes anytime soon (awesome), but one has to be prepared.

I would much rather be in the left seat than the right for marketability and getting that paycheque premium to go along with it.

Are the salaries that close at Air Canada, that it doesn't make sense to jump to the left? They get YOS on their uograde right, same at Westjet now?