Cessna 441 hard landing

[light chop]

https://youtu.be/W967YTx9z4I

[J31]

Flight idle all the way down. Not a good thing with TPE331 engines. You could see they had full up elevator in the flare, than gave up and let her bounce down the runway with the control column full forward.

[digits_]

Flight idle all the way down. Not a good thing with TPE331 engines. You could see they had full up elevator in the flare, than gave up and let her bounce down the runway with the control column full forward.

Isn't the full forward a standard Cessna thing on their turboprops/jets?

Obviously it shouldn't have been done in this situation, but that part might have been muscle memory.

[pelmet]

Looks to me like they got too slow and stalled it in. People do that. Happened at the local airfield where I fly yesterday. Faulty airspeed indicator blamed. Hard landing inspection done and a test flight flown. Airspeed indicator was just fine. A bit more ancillary info I am holding back on but that is the basics of it.

[photofly]

As an aside, the wingtip vortices are nicely visible in the dust clouds thrown up by the tires on the first and second contacts.

[Blowin' In The Wind]

Looks to me like they got too slow and stalled it in. People do that. Happened at the local airfield where I fly yesterday. Faulty airspeed indicator blamed. Hard landing inspection done and a test flight flown. Airspeed indicator was just fine. A bit more ancillary info I am holding back on but that is the basics of it.

“It must’ve been my airspeed indicator!” Haha love it.

[cncpc]

Not sure what sort of circuit was flown, but it seems like we are seeing a left base to final at low altitude for 04. They end up right by the Prestige. So either an overhead join coming from the west or direct entry to the pattern from out beyond the Orange Bridge. Either way, a lot of work to set yourself up for a downwind landing. Never really had any final to speak of to get stabilized.

I've flown that circuit hundreds of times. You are right up against the mountain on downwind for 04 (downwind for either actually, as 22 is right handed). My usual practice was to hold 1000 above till past the hump that is close to where you would start the base turn, if you didn't have ground right below you. So I would hold downwind heading till past the hump and over the river, then turn for a fairly normal base and final. That gives you a near to half mile final.

On a purely theoretical view, you have a high sink rate and denser air over the River, but five days ago, as soon as you are over ground and ashphalt, you are in the big heat, hot air rising.

I'm seeing Thurmon Munson syndrome here, i.e. owner pilot who could afford an airplane he couldn't handle.

So much for lunch at the Prestige.

[cncpc]

Checked FlighAware. Came from Lethbridge. Direct entry to the left downwind for 04. Seems to have flown a good circuit with a good time on final.

[co-joe]

As an aside, the wingtip vortices are nicely visible in the dust clouds thrown up by the tires on the first and second contacts.

I believe the dust thrown up causing that nice vortex is from the right prop striking the runway. I have to think the tailwind didn't help anything.

Watch the slo mo at the end, you can see that vicious nosewheel shimmy translate into violent oscillating rudder deflections.

[Pratt X 3]

Checked FlighAware. Came from Lethbridge. Direct entry to the left downwind for 04. Seems to have flown a good circuit with a good time on final.

I think you are looking at the flight that occurred 3 hours after this ‘arrival’ happened. They were coming from Vernon and as the videographer mentions in the YouTube comments, he initially thought they were proceeding overhead to join the circuit for 22 since they were so high.
By the way, there is another thread discussing this here: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtop ... 1#p1268231

[pelmet]

Looks to me like they got too slow and stalled it in. People do that.

[‘Bob’]

It wasn’t stalled. Landed way too flat to be anywhere near the stall… used up way too much runway.. and the porpoising was from the pilot trying to force it on.

The full up elevator was to try and arrest the very high sink rate.. maybe an accelerated stall but probably not.

If you’re going to use a high sink rate, do a pre-flare like they do in the shuttle. Aim for short of the runway and round out to a 3 degree. Works amazingly well on lots of different aircraft (with the exception of ones that have stabilized approach criteria).

[Eric Janson]

If you’re going to use a high sink rate, do a pre-flare like they do in the shuttle. Aim for short of the runway and round out to a 3 degree. Works amazingly well on lots of different aircraft (with the exception of ones that have stabilized approach criteria).

A simple go-around and properly flown second approach on speed/profile is the only option in this situation. Jmho.

[Bede]

If you’re going to use a high sink rate, do a pre-flare like they do in the shuttle. Aim for short of the runway and round out to a 3 degree. Works amazingly well on lots of different aircraft (with the exception of ones that have stabilized approach criteria).

What's a pre-flare?

[‘Bob’]

If you’re going to use a high sink rate, do a pre-flare like they do in the shuttle. Aim for short of the runway and round out to a 3 degree. Works amazingly well on lots of different aircraft (with the exception of ones that have stabilized approach criteria).

A simple go-around and properly flown second approach on speed/profile is the only option in this situation. Jmho.

Clearly you've never been to Nelson.

What's a pre-flare?

This.

The only thing is that with Garretts is you have to worry about NTSing if you are headed down too fast at idle.

[pelmet]

There are approaches using glide paths that are 5.5 degrees and 6 degrees that are used by both turboprops and jets. No pre-flare is done. It is simply a proper flare at the proper speed at the proper height.

One could do a steeper approach further back and then adjust power or speed to change the descent path to steeper or shallower on short final. I have done all of the above. Proper airspeed control is the key.

[Donald]

It wasn’t stalled. Landed way too flat to be anywhere near the stall… used up way too much runway.. and the porpoising was from the pilot trying to force it on.

The full up elevator was to try and arrest the very high sink rate.. maybe an accelerated stall but probably not.

If you’re going to use a high sink rate, do a pre-flare like they do in the shuttle. Aim for short of the runway and round out to a 3 degree. Works amazingly well on lots of different aircraft (with the exception of ones that have stabilized approach criteria).

So to fly a C441 into Nelson, one needs to be a shuttle pilot?

[‘Bob’]

It wasn’t stalled. Landed way too flat to be anywhere near the stall… used up way too much runway.. and the porpoising was from the pilot trying to force it on.

The full up elevator was to try and arrest the very high sink rate.. maybe an accelerated stall but probably not.

If you’re going to use a high sink rate, do a pre-flare like they do in the shuttle. Aim for short of the runway and round out to a 3 degree. Works amazingly well on lots of different aircraft (with the exception of ones that have stabilized approach criteria).

So to fly a C441 into Nelson, one needs to be a shuttle pilot?

Sure.. just like by the same logic doing a 360 forced approach in a 150 you have to be a shuttle pilot too.

[Eric Janson]

If you’re going to use a high sink rate, do a pre-flare like they do in the shuttle. Aim for short of the runway and round out to a 3 degree. Works amazingly well on lots of different aircraft (with the exception of ones that have stabilized approach criteria).

A simple go-around and properly flown second approach on speed/profile is the only option in this situation. Jmho.

Clearly you've never been to Nelson.

You're correct.

I stand by my previous comment.

[‘Bob’]

A simple go-around and properly flown second approach on speed/profile is the only option in this situation. Jmho.

Clearly you've never been to Nelson.

You're correct.

I stand by my previous comment.

Thing is.. places like Nelson as well as nearby airports like Castlegar and Trail.. and I’ll add Bella Coola and Stewart in as well, aren’t really airports conducive to what airlines would call a stabilized approach.

It’s like Kai Tak. Remember that place? If they tried to certify the approach into Kai Tak today they wouldn’t be able to do it because it wouldn’t meet any standards and airlines would refuse to fly into it. But, if you wanted to go to HK that was the only way to do it.

Castlegar. Same thing. Used to have an odd offset LOC with three beacons going over this huge hill that apparently got certified somehow but actually didn’t conform to any standards at all. RNAV makes it nicer but they can’t even put an RNP in there because of the terrain and minimum altitudes.

Apparently, this is after my time there, when WJ made a deal with PASCO for Link they brought in a whole pile of WJ big airline stuff that PASCO had to comply with to get in ship shape.. and the approach into Trail was the same deal. Approach is fine. Missed approach is fine. But getting down to the actual runway even in a circling maneuver requires some fancy flying WJ didn’t have any SOPs for.

Now… you can be stable one of two ways. Horizontal profile.. which means you forget the drive and just dive, or vertical.. which means you go down on a nice three degree.. but you aren’t lined up with the runway until short final and in many cases you can’t even see the runway until you come around the corner. But not both, and doing a curved 3 degree means you have to be familiar with the area, so a newbie is going to come in high.

Again, no RNP either pilot, aircraft, or airport.

Thing about aviation is.. unless you are flying a 100+ ton jet ILS to ILS.. is lots of things don’t fit nicely into the boxes that we are given. A lot of aviation would simply cease to exist if it had to abide by rules airlines make. And maybe as an airline pilot that is your comfort level.

But for the rest of us. We assess and mitigate risk. Flying an odd profile in a light turboprop is nearly risk free and a go around is always an option. Even here with egregious lapses in flying skill and decision making, the damage was minor and contained to the aircraft.

[oldncold]

The plane is now in cyql. Planes wings are buckled, it was a training flt the owner flew it out of cznl against the advice of the[ training pilot ] the training pilot did the smart thing he got out and stayed in nelson . The scary part is ,wings could have folded up like a tin can enroute cznl to cyql . Apparently Owner is very rich , though foolish when it comes to aircraft pdm . This aircraft , it will be disassembled put on truck to usa shortly. Parted out or fixed . Though beyond economical repair. As it is an faa n registered aircraft unless they got a ferry permit release prior to departure (unknown)at this point from the local fisdo office the owner was in violation of a boatload of regs . But enforcement isfor another day

The attitude of this owner imho will get himself killed and sadly pax oblivious to the guys lack of pdm and larger than life ego

[Tbayer2021]

The plane is now in cyql. Planes wings are buckled, it was a training flt the owner flew it out of cznl against the advice of the[ training pilot ] the training pilot did the smart thing he got out and stayed in nelson . The scary part is ,wings could have folded up like a tin can enroute cznl to cyql . Apparently Owner is very rich , though foolish when it comes to aircraft pdm . This aircraft , it will be disassembled put on truck to usa shortly. Parted out or fixed . Though beyond economical repair. As it is an faa n registered aircraft unless they got a ferry permit release prior to departure (unknown)at this point from the local fisdo office the owner was in violation of a boatload of regs . But enforcement isfor another day

The attitude of this owner imho will get himself killed and sadly pax oblivious to the guys lack of pdm and larger than life ego

All too common in general aviation unfortunately. This person shouldn't be allowed to touch the controls of an aircraft with that sort of attitude.

[rookiepilot]

The plane is now in cyql. Planes wings are buckled, it was a training flt the owner flew it out of cznl against the advice of the[ training pilot ] the training pilot did the smart thing he got out and stayed in nelson . The scary part is ,wings could have folded up like a tin can enroute cznl to cyql . Apparently Owner is very rich , though foolish when it comes to aircraft pdm . This aircraft , it will be disassembled put on truck to usa shortly. Parted out or fixed . Though beyond economical repair. As it is an faa n registered aircraft unless they got a ferry permit release prior to departure (unknown)at this point from the local fisdo office the owner was in violation of a boatload of regs . But enforcement isfor another day

The attitude of this owner imho will get himself killed and sadly pax oblivious to the guys lack of pdm and larger than life ego

All too common in general aviation unfortunately. This person shouldn't be allowed to touch the controls of an aircraft with that sort of attitude.

Neither should the training pilot. Who didn’t take control and initiate a go around, exactly why?

[pelmet]

The plane is now in cyql. Planes wings are buckled, it was a training flt the owner flew it out of cznl against the advice of the[ training pilot ] the training pilot did the smart thing he got out and stayed in nelson . The scary part is ,wings could have folded up like a tin can enroute cznl to cyql . Apparently Owner is very rich , though foolish when it comes to aircraft pdm . This aircraft , it will be disassembled put on truck to usa shortly. Parted out or fixed . Though beyond economical repair. As it is an faa n registered aircraft unless they got a ferry permit release prior to departure (unknown)at this point from the local fisdo office the owner was in violation of a boatload of regs . But enforcement isfor another day

The attitude of this owner imho will get himself killed and sadly pax oblivious to the guys lack of pdm and larger than life ego

All too common in general aviation unfortunately. This person shouldn't be allowed to touch the controls of an aircraft with that sort of attitude.

Neither should the training pilot. Who didn’t take control and initiate a go around, exactly why?

Why should the training pilot not be allowed to touch the controls of an aircraft. It sounds like he made a mistake. Any chance you are suggesting that pilots who make a mistake(assuming he actually did make a mistake) and damage an aircraft not be allowed to ever fly again?

But taking an aircraft airborne again that has damage like this is a serious judgement issue. It sounds like both of them made a mistake but one of them did much worse after the incident.

Would be interesting to know a bit more about the background of the owner.