TUI style

[the_new_guy]

https://simpleflying.com/flair-airlines ... 1691027931

[FlyGiep]

Makes sense!
Resolves the need for crew?!

[throwawaycorporate]

Can any pilots currently on property speak to this?

I was thinking about applying at Sunwing to take advantage of the Euro deployments, but now that's gone. Has anything been released about what the Oz deployments would be like? Senior? Junior? Pay supplements etc.

[the_new_guy]

Can any pilots currently on property speak to this?

I was thinking about applying at Sunwing to take advantage of the Euro deployments, but now that's gone. Has anything been released about what the Oz deployments would be like? Senior? Junior? Pay supplements etc.

There's very little known right now. First time around we're looking at 2 planes, probably 7 crew per plane. There will be a bid, hard to say who's in for it who's not. I would think it would be a mix of seniority, maybe a little heavier on the junior side of the scale.

That's really all that is known right this instance, but once the lou is out we'll know more.

[throwawaycorporate]

That's really all that is known right this instance, but once the lou is out we'll know more.

I'd love to know! It could be the next hidden gem of Canadian aviation. Canadian summers and Australian summers. Best of both worlds. + I used to live near the Gold Coast and it is truly a stunning part of the world.

[cdnavater]

Can any pilots currently on property speak to this?

I was thinking about applying at Sunwing to take advantage of the Euro deployments, but now that's gone. Has anything been released about what the Oz deployments would be like? Senior? Junior? Pay supplements etc.

There's very little known right now. First time around we're looking at 2 planes, probably 7 crew per plane. There will be a bid, hard to say who's in for it who's not. I would think it would be a mix of seniority, maybe a little heavier on the junior side of the scale.

That's really all that is known right this instance, but once the lou is out we'll know more.

Seriously, you know they will use this to not promote enough Captains to staff the operation, they will just have enough for the slow season and beef up your operations with wet lease for the bust times.
This is not good for the pilots, what bullshit excuse are you using? They won’t lay you off, they’ll run fat for the off season but pilots are apparently too fucking stupid to see this for what it is, another end run around having to be staffed properly year round.
This practice has been fought against and you guys are giving them a friggen LOU, grow a pair ffs

[MaxAuto]

Can any pilots currently on property speak to this?

I was thinking about applying at Sunwing to take advantage of the Euro deployments, but now that's gone. Has anything been released about what the Oz deployments would be like? Senior? Junior? Pay supplements etc.

There's very little known right now. First time around we're looking at 2 planes, probably 7 crew per plane. There will be a bid, hard to say who's in for it who's not. I would think it would be a mix of seniority, maybe a little heavier on the junior side of the scale.

That's really all that is known right this instance, but once the lou is out we'll know more.

Seriously, you know they will use this to not promote enough Captains to staff the operation, they will just have enough for the slow season and beef up your operations with wet lease for the bust times.
This is not good for the pilots, what bullshit excuse are you using? They won’t lay you off, they’ll run fat for the off season but pilots are apparently too fucking stupid to see this for what it is, another end run around having to be staffed properly year round.
This practice has been fought against and you guys are giving them a friggen LOU, grow a pair ffs

It keeps the pilots busy throughout the year. Winter is a slow season. What a great opportunity to deploy to the southern hemisphere during our winter and fly during Australia peak season. It doesn't reduce upgrade opportunities. It actually gives them work during some of the slower winter months outside of Christmas. Who wouldn't want to live in Australia on the companies dime.

[cdnavater]

There's very little known right now. First time around we're looking at 2 planes, probably 7 crew per plane. There will be a bid, hard to say who's in for it who's not. I would think it would be a mix of seniority, maybe a little heavier on the junior side of the scale.

That's really all that is known right this instance, but once the lou is out we'll know more.

Seriously, you know they will use this to not promote enough Captains to staff the operation, they will just have enough for the slow season and beef up your operations with wet lease for the bust times.
This is not good for the pilots, what bullshit excuse are you using? They won’t lay you off, they’ll run fat for the off season but pilots are apparently too fucking stupid to see this for what it is, another end run around having to be staffed properly year round.
This practice has been fought against and you guys are giving them a friggen LOU, grow a pair ffs

It keeps the pilots busy throughout the year. Winter is a slow season. What a great opportunity to deploy to the southern hemisphere during our winter and fly during Australia peak season. It doesn't reduce upgrade opportunities. It actually gives them work during some of the slower winter months outside of Christmas. Who wouldn't want to live in Australia on the companies dime.

You don’t get it, airlines obviously have highs and low periods, they staff for the high period and carry the staff for the low period. If they bring in wet leases, they don’t need to increase their Captain positions for the high period, they keep enough to cover the low and use the Australian crews to offset the busier times. The same is happening there, with your crew during the off peak, you are preventing them from upgrading and hiring enough to cover the busier times.
This only benefits the company as they aren’t over staffed when it’s slow!
Every other airline in Canada tries to staff for the busy times and reduced block for the slower times but they don’t lay off or artificially staff when it’s busy, that’s what shyster companies do!

[the_new_guy]

Can any pilots currently on property speak to this?

I was thinking about applying at Sunwing to take advantage of the Euro deployments, but now that's gone. Has anything been released about what the Oz deployments would be like? Senior? Junior? Pay supplements etc.

There's very little known right now. First time around we're looking at 2 planes, probably 7 crew per plane. There will be a bid, hard to say who's in for it who's not. I would think it would be a mix of seniority, maybe a little heavier on the junior side of the scale.

That's really all that is known right this instance, but once the lou is out we'll know more.

Seriously, you know they will use this to not promote enough Captains to staff the operation, they will just have enough for the slow season and beef up your operations with wet lease for the bust times.
This is not good for the pilots, what bullshit excuse are you using? They won’t lay you off, they’ll run fat for the off season but pilots are apparently too fucking stupid to see this for what it is, another end run around having to be staffed properly year round.
This practice has been fought against and you guys are giving them a friggen LOU, grow a pair ffs

I miss the part where this is my idea, my "bullshit excuse".

I am providing untainted info, that's all. If that comment was directed at me, look up my posts, let me know how biased I seem to be.

[cdnavater]

There's very little known right now. First time around we're looking at 2 planes, probably 7 crew per plane. There will be a bid, hard to say who's in for it who's not. I would think it would be a mix of seniority, maybe a little heavier on the junior side of the scale.

That's really all that is known right this instance, but once the lou is out we'll know more.

Seriously, you know they will use this to not promote enough Captains to staff the operation, they will just have enough for the slow season and beef up your operations with wet lease for the bust times.
This is not good for the pilots, what bullshit excuse are you using? They won’t lay you off, they’ll run fat for the off season but pilots are apparently too fucking stupid to see this for what it is, another end run around having to be staffed properly year round.
This practice has been fought against and you guys are giving them a friggen LOU, grow a pair ffs

I miss the part where this is my idea, my "bullshit excuse".

I am providing untainted info, that's all. If that comment was directed at me, look up my posts, let me know how biased I seem to be.

I quoted MaxAuto for his “it keeps pilots busy throughout the year” bullshit. The company won’t layoff if they need you in 3 months, to difficult to manage, guys will not come back unless there is nothing else out there. So, this is completely for the company and does nothing for the profession.
There is a reason this practice was so discussed at “SCUMWING” remember them?

[DHC-1 Jockey]

There is a reason this practice was so discussed at “SCUMWING” remember them?

The issue you refer to was when Canadian pilots were laid off while at the same time bringing in TFW's to crew the aircraft. That practice ended during my time there, and once that was resolved, the deployments were one of the best selling features of working at that company. It's a reason that many pilots chose to stay at Sunwing when there were opportunities to move to WJ or AC, myself included. Now that deployments are (supposedly) ending, I'm sure more than a few pilots are disappointed that the "TUI Style" program is coming to an end.

If Flair uses the same model Sunwing did, that could be a big draw for pilots who like the deployment lifestyle.

[cdnavater]

There is a reason this practice was so discussed at “SCUMWING” remember them?

The issue you refer to was when Canadian pilots were laid off while at the same time bringing in TFW's to crew the aircraft. That practice ended during my time there, and once that was resolved, the deployments were one of the best selling features of working at that company. It's a reason that many pilots chose to stay at Sunwing when there were opportunities to move to WJ or AC, myself included. Now that deployments are (supposedly) ending, I'm sure more than a few pilots are disappointed that the "TUI Style" program is coming to an end.

If Flair uses the same model Sunwing did, that could be a big draw for pilots who like the deployment lifestyle.

No, you are confusing in house pilots with other airline pilots whose companies don’t use wet leases as a means to have less pilots during the off season.
Every other company, it was referred to as SCUMWING, it was not reciprocal(even) until pressure was put on to make it one for one.
Flair is not reinventing the wheel here, they are using a practice that has been used to reduce the costs associated with having to be properly staffed year round, pilots should not be supporting this. There will be less Captain spots required, especially if it’s not completely reciprocal.
It also signals Flair is not doing as well as they thought they would be if they are looking for ways to hire less pilots, it appears to me your growth phase is coming to an end, at least for now

[cdnavater]

There is a reason this practice was so discussed at “SCUMWING” remember them?

The issue you refer to was when Canadian pilots were laid off while at the same time bringing in TFW's to crew the aircraft. That practice ended during my time there, and once that was resolved, the deployments were one of the best selling features of working at that company. It's a reason that many pilots chose to stay at Sunwing when there were opportunities to move to WJ or AC, myself included. Now that deployments are (supposedly) ending, I'm sure more than a few pilots are disappointed that the "TUI Style" program is coming to an end.

If Flair uses the same model Sunwing did, that could be a big draw for pilots who like the deployment lifestyle.

No, you are confusing in house pilots with other airline pilots whose companies don’t use wet leases as a means to have less pilots during the off season.
Every other company, it was referred to as SCUMWING, it was not reciprocal(even) until pressure was put on to make it one for one.
Flair is not reinventing the wheel here, they are using a practice that has been used to reduce the costs associated with having to be properly staffed year round, pilots should not be supporting this. There will be less Captain spots required, especially if it’s not completely reciprocal.
It also signals Flair is not doing as well as they thought they would be if they are looking for ways to hire less pilots, it appears to me your growth phase is coming to an end, at least for now

[Donald]

The federal govt denied Sunwing's last attempt at TFW's.

ALPA was very opposed to the practice as well.

How is this suddenly a good thing?

First it was recruiting in Johannesburg, now this....what's next??

[DHC-1 Jockey]

There is a reason this practice was so discussed at “SCUMWING” remember them?

The issue you refer to was when Canadian pilots were laid off while at the same time bringing in TFW's to crew the aircraft. That practice ended during my time there, and once that was resolved, the deployments were one of the best selling features of working at that company. It's a reason that many pilots chose to stay at Sunwing when there were opportunities to move to WJ or AC, myself included. Now that deployments are (supposedly) ending, I'm sure more than a few pilots are disappointed that the "TUI Style" program is coming to an end.

If Flair uses the same model Sunwing did, that could be a big draw for pilots who like the deployment lifestyle.

No, you are confusing in house pilots with other airline pilots whose companies don’t use wet leases as a means to have less pilots during the off season.
Every other company, it was referred to as SCUMWING, it was not reciprocal(even) until pressure was put on to make it one for one.
Flair is not reinventing the wheel here, they are using a practice that has been used to reduce the costs associated with having to be properly staffed year round, pilots should not be supporting this. There will be less Captain spots required, especially if it’s not completely reciprocal.
It also signals Flair is not doing as well as they thought they would be if they are looking for ways to hire less pilots, it appears to me your growth phase is coming to an end, at least for now

Have you worked for Sunwing, or are you just throwing pot-shots from the peanut gallery? As I said, when the TFW program issue was resolved and the wet-leases became one-for-one, I don't know of any pilot at Sunwing that had an issue with the way the "TUI Style" arrangement was set up. In fact, most looked forward to the deployments and actually became unhappy when it was announced that deployments could end with the WJ acquisition/merger. The worst grumblings I heard during the program was that the TUI pilots usually got YOW as a winter base, and there was more than one SWG pilot who would have preferred to have YOW over YWG.

If it worked well for the very pilots who were directly affected, who are you to say Flair doing the same is a bad thing for pilots?

[co-joe]

I'm undecided on the whole thing. I can see where it could really benefit both companies, but I can also see where it could stifle growth here. Bonza is a tiny company, and likely won't have more than a small handful of pilots who could be deployed to Canada next spring/ summer. But if they grow and the program is successful we will need to have a clear language in our CBA to protect our domestic pilots and their career progression. This summer we leased 2 tails from them, maybe it's just metal, no people again next year. At this point, it's just a concept, I'll reserve judgement until I see the fine print. Another option, if our business is indeed that cyclic, would be like Transat used to do, with seasonal upgrades. Who knows, if we lose enough people to Porter's new 20 k pay raise, we may have to run more groundschools to cover deployments and domestic flying? In that case, deployments will just be a cool benefit for whoever's interested. There's also always the risk of forced deployments if interest isn't as high as conceptualized.

[nohojob]

It's a well known fact that people who don't work for a company (swg), know a lot more on the company that the one who do work for it.
In Avcanada world anyway !

[FlyGiep]

The federal govt denied Sunwing's last attempt at TFW's.

ALPA was very opposed to the practice as well.

How is this suddenly a good thing?

First it was recruiting in Johannesburg, now this....what's next??

That was a pipedream, what ever happened to the recruiting in Johannesburg?

[MaxAuto]

I think the difference here is that pilots who chose SWG, chose for a very specific reason. That reason was deployments. Pilots at a Flair didn't choose Flair for that reason. To most it is a very unfamiliar concept considering they mostly do day trips which was the selling point for many.

[MKFlair]

This is a fairly simple concept. 2 a/c and crew go to OZ for months during their busy season and the same occurs in reverse. It actually allows both airlines to carry slightly more aircraft (and therefore crew) then they would otherwise as the business would not permit them to carry that level of service over 12 months. In other words, with a recipricol agreement where the two airlines essentially 'share' two aircraft they can shift those aircraft for 4 months each year.

In this situation each airline has more pilots than they would otherwise (so Cdnaviator - more captains by logic) all while offering an excellent opportunity to those crew interested to experience and work in another part of the world.

[flyinhigh]

This is a fairly simple concept. 2 a/c and crew go to OZ for months during their busy season and the same occurs in reverse. It actually allows both airlines to carry slightly more aircraft (and therefore crew) then they would otherwise as the business would not permit them to carry that level of service over 12 months. In other words, with a recipricol agreement where the two airlines essentially 'share' two aircraft they can shift those aircraft for 4 months each year.

In this situation each airline has more pilots than they would otherwise (so Cdnaviator - more captains by logic) all while offering an excellent opportunity to those crew interested to experience and work in another part of the world.

Good sales job, just like on that amazing CBA you have. This is nothing more than a way to get some experienced crews up here as you cannot attract pilots. Heck even the JBerg plan fell apart.

Every airline has down periods, yet they plan accordingly for that with training, additional vacation blocks, etc.

[cdnavater]

This is a fairly simple concept. 2 a/c and crew go to OZ for months during their busy season and the same occurs in reverse. It actually allows both airlines to carry slightly more aircraft (and therefore crew) then they would otherwise as the business would not permit them to carry that level of service over 12 months. In other words, with a recipricol agreement where the two airlines essentially 'share' two aircraft they can shift those aircraft for 4 months each year.

In this situation each airline has more pilots than they would otherwise (so Cdnaviator - more captains by logic) all while offering an excellent opportunity to those crew interested to experience and work in another part of the world.

Not quite but nice try
I’ll work with your numbers to keep it simple.
Flair has 25 aircraft but need 27 for the busy season, the still have 25 aircraft and artificially bring the fleet up to 27
Slow season Flair has 25 aircraft but only need 23 so they send 2 over, same amount of crew required year round.
You are 2 aircraft short for the busy times and that is the crew that should be hired and working year round, this only benefits the company by not carrying extra crew during the offseason. Every other airline except Sunwing has the burden of carrying extra crew and aircraft for the slow period and only a company shill doesn’t see that

[tbaylx]

This is a fairly simple concept. 2 a/c and crew go to OZ for months during their busy season and the same occurs in reverse. It actually allows both airlines to carry slightly more aircraft (and therefore crew) then they would otherwise as the business would not permit them to carry that level of service over 12 months. In other words, with a recipricol agreement where the two airlines essentially 'share' two aircraft they can shift those aircraft for 4 months each year.

In this situation each airline has more pilots than they would otherwise (so Cdnaviator - more captains by logic) all while offering an excellent opportunity to those crew interested to experience and work in another part of the world.

Not quite but nice try
I’ll work with your numbers to keep it simple.
Flair has 25 aircraft but need 27 for the busy season, the still have 25 aircraft and artificially bring the fleet up to 27
Slow season Flair has 25 aircraft but only need 23 so they send 2 over, same amount of crew required year round.
You are 2 aircraft short for the busy times and that is the crew that should be hired and working year round, this only benefits the company by not carrying extra crew during the offseason. Every other airline except Sunwing has the burden of carrying extra crew and aircraft for the slow period and only a company shill doesn’t see that

Flawed logic. If we only needed 23 aircraft in the slow season then we wouldn't carry 27 aircraft year round, we'd likely keep it at 25 and try and increase utilization a bit. Of course, we're going to be able to avoid the burden of extra costs in the low season, that's the whole point. The whole concept of why a ULCC can offer cheaper fares and still make money is their costs are lower than everyone else's. The whole idea that something that benefits the Company is somehow bad is perplexing. Why wouldn't a Flair pilot want to see their company compete and succeed? It's not affecting their T&C's and to the contrary offers a voluntary option to spend winters in Australia with a decent extra monthly perdiem and paid for housing.

To use your logic - only someone with no business sense doesn't see that.

[Soyer]

This is a fairly simple concept. 2 a/c and crew go to OZ for months during their busy season and the same occurs in reverse. It actually allows both airlines to carry slightly more aircraft (and therefore crew) then they would otherwise as the business would not permit them to carry that level of service over 12 months. In other words, with a recipricol agreement where the two airlines essentially 'share' two aircraft they can shift those aircraft for 4 months each year.

In this situation each airline has more pilots than they would otherwise (so Cdnaviator - more captains by logic) all while offering an excellent opportunity to those crew interested to experience and work in another part of the world.

Not quite but nice try
I’ll work with your numbers to keep it simple.
Flair has 25 aircraft but need 27 for the busy season, the still have 25 aircraft and artificially bring the fleet up to 27
Slow season Flair has 25 aircraft but only need 23 so they send 2 over, same amount of crew required year round.
You are 2 aircraft short for the busy times and that is the crew that should be hired and working year round, this only benefits the company by not carrying extra crew during the offseason. Every other airline except Sunwing has the burden of carrying extra crew and aircraft for the slow period and only a company shill doesn’t see that

Clearly a troll but I will answer anyway.

Using your numbers - you have 25 aircraft but for the busy summer season you could utilize 27 aircraft. However, carrying those 2 additional aircraft in the other 8 months makes it a unprofitable so you don't make that investment. But if you are able to cost share and utilize with a partner you can gain that additional business. You increase your fleet by the 2 aircraft for the 4 busy months, cover off the other 4 months and send them to Oz for the last 4 months. You also hire and crew for those two extra aircraft above what you would otherwise carry and, at the same time, provide an opportunity for crews to operate and enjoy foreign operations. No one is being forced and it is voluntary.

Works for everyone.

[Tbayer2021]

This is a fairly simple concept. 2 a/c and crew go to OZ for months during their busy season and the same occurs in reverse. It actually allows both airlines to carry slightly more aircraft (and therefore crew) then they would otherwise as the business would not permit them to carry that level of service over 12 months. In other words, with a recipricol agreement where the two airlines essentially 'share' two aircraft they can shift those aircraft for 4 months each year.

In this situation each airline has more pilots than they would otherwise (so Cdnaviator - more captains by logic) all while offering an excellent opportunity to those crew interested to experience and work in another part of the world.

Not quite but nice try
I’ll work with your numbers to keep it simple.
Flair has 25 aircraft but need 27 for the busy season, the still have 25 aircraft and artificially bring the fleet up to 27
Slow season Flair has 25 aircraft but only need 23 so they send 2 over, same amount of crew required year round.
You are 2 aircraft short for the busy times and that is the crew that should be hired and working year round, this only benefits the company by not carrying extra crew during the offseason. Every other airline except Sunwing has the burden of carrying extra crew and aircraft for the slow period and only a company shill doesn’t see that

Clearly a troll but I will answer anyway.

Using your numbers - you have 25 aircraft but for the busy summer season you could utilize 27 aircraft. However, carrying those 2 additional aircraft in the other 8 months makes it a unprofitable so you don't make that investment. But if you are able to cost share and utilize with a partner you can gain that additional business. You increase your fleet by the 2 aircraft for the 4 busy months, cover off the other 4 months and send them to Oz for the last 4 months. You also hire and crew for those two extra aircraft above what you would otherwise carry and, at the same time, provide an opportunity for crews to operate and enjoy foreign operations. No one is being forced and it is voluntary.

Works for everyone.

People will be forced from the bottom up if there aren't enough volunteers. Just like it happened at Sunwing.