New CA Expectation

[Man_in_the_sky]

With Porter new Payscale being published. Is that a positive thing to use during your negociations ?

What is the expectation (%) of the new pay scale ?


Curious what's the general idea on this topic ...

[bob99]

233%

[North Shore]

I think that whenever pay is involved, the AvCanada approved amount is $500

[RippleRock]

I want someone to explain to everyone why our CEO deserves a raise of 233% with the abysmal performance and overall "in the basement" moral of this company, with its bloated middle Management pool and the worst OTP in this hemisphere. By just "cleaning house", they could find enough money to fund a proper raise for pilots 10x over. How many employees per aircraft does AC have again? How about Delta? Jeezuz, you'd think this was a Liberal Government run operation.

Apparently pilots are NOT worth as much as their American counterparts doing the EXACT same job.

Is WHY too much to ask?

[bcflyer]

I want someone to explain to everyone why our CEO deserves a raise of 233% with the abysmal performance and overall "in the basement" moral of this company, with its bloated middle Management pool and the worst OTP in this hemisphere. By just "cleaning house", they could find enough money to fund a proper raise for pilots 10x over. How many employees per aircraft does AC have again? How about Delta? Jeezuz, you'd think this was a Liberal Government run operation.

Apparently pilots are NOT worth as much as their American counterparts doing the EXACT same job.

Is WHY too much to ask?

You get what you negotiate. He was obviously much better at it than ACPA.

[Blueontop]

I want someone to explain to everyone why our CEO deserves a raise of 233% with the abysmal performance and overall "in the basement" moral of this company, with its bloated middle Management pool and the worst OTP in this hemisphere. By just "cleaning house", they could find enough money to fund a proper raise for pilots 10x over. How many employees per aircraft does AC have again? How about Delta? Jeezuz, you'd think this was a Liberal Government run operation.

Apparently pilots are NOT worth as much as their American counterparts doing the EXACT same job.

Is WHY too much to ask?

You get what you negotiate. He was obviously much better at it than ACPA.

As simple as HE KNOWS HIS WORTH!

233% should be the battle cry going into negotiations.

CRY 233%! And let slip the dogs of war..

[flyinhigh]

233%

My gawd, I would love to be a fly on the wall with that number produced and the rationale.

Haha, oh it’d be good

[Blueontop]

I think the vast majority don’t even know what raises and compensation looks like for management. If it is made more common knowledge then a lot more people will be pretty pissed off when they look at their compensation. Less likely to shrug shoulders and say well I guess what their offering is “fair enough”.

[swervin]

I was able to grab ACPAs collective agreement from 2000. Looking at 747 Captain pay at 12th year it looks like hourly pay was around $273. That’s $451 in todays Money. I also grabbed the old Air Ontario collective agreement from 2000. The Dash 8 300 Captain pay at 8 years was $96 an hour. That’s $156 an hour today.

Pretty sad how far we’ve all fallen.

[CaptDukeNukem]

With Porter new Payscale being published. Is that a positive thing to use during your negociations ?

What is the expectation (%) of the new pay scale ?


Curious what's the general idea on this topic ...

I absolutely think they will compare many pay scales during negotiations. I’m personally curious as to others want for improvements other than pay.

[bcflyer]

With Porter new Payscale being published. Is that a positive thing to use during your negociations ?

What is the expectation (%) of the new pay scale ?


Curious what's the general idea on this topic ...

I absolutely think they will compare many pay scales during negotiations. I’m personally curious as to others want for improvements other than pay.

Higher daily credit, proper vacation credit, training inside the blocking widow, better reserve rules, better bidding, better pairing construction. That’s just off the top of my head. Do I think we’ll get all of that? Not all on this contract. But we need to get a start on it.

[Blueontop]

With Porter new Payscale being published. Is that a positive thing to use during your negociations ?

What is the expectation (%) of the new pay scale ?


Curious what's the general idea on this topic ...

I absolutely think they will compare many pay scales during negotiations. I’m personally curious as to others want for improvements other than pay.

Higher daily credit, proper vacation credit, training inside the blocking widow, better reserve rules, better bidding, better pairing construction. That’s just off the top of my head. Do I think we’ll get all of that? Not all on this contract. But we need to get a start on it.

And I’m sure that’s exactly the mindset the Americans are going into their negotiations with with their unparalleled gains.

Canadian pilot mentality succinctly exhibited right here folks. Defeatist attitude right from the get go.

AC CEO was thinking that when he started his own negotiations.

Canadian pilots are so far behind the industry average, this is not the time for a half-assed conciliatory mindset where we expect to really only negotiate for half of what we need and then accept half of that at the end.

No pilots no flights. Simple as that. Remember your worth. AC CEO sure knows his.

[ReturnoftheMike]

Idiotic imbeciles,

As the King of the concessions crew, I hope you realize by now the irreplaceable loss this group now faces without the likes of myself and the elite team I built around me

Armed with the experience of a decade of an industry shaping 2% pay raise & world worst hourly rates, the new Kids on the Block led by their lead singer the Madame Chair and supported by their US franchise, simply can not match my basement bottom prices and performance.

The 10% pay reduction we peddled to the membership and successfully got ratified was a testament of the synergies we built in membership milking. It was a permanent concession that saved this airline and secure its future growth. Without giving a lot, we will never get a little, something this new TikTok gen needs to figure out


You ask what you're expecting but I wouldn't expect much from this lot. This new new relationship will fail compared to my enshrined ethos of playing nice to management and being hard on the membership. That is what a true union does. Takes care of the company

These idiots now just don't have a clue as they send trainloads of membership dues across the border to a professional union.

ALPA may have rid the industry of pink tails, but I personally helped erradicate any perks at Rouge. Less Money in the pockets of the pilots means less corporate cost and expansion. You can all thank me later when you are junior Captains with industry worst pay & working conditions.

I close by saying you will be lucky to get any gains with this new leadership group. As the non-elected official forum troll of the opposition, I vow to continue my campaign of gaslighting the pilot group in my attempt to unify the pilots against a common enemy. Myself.

Regards,
Mike

[RRJetPilot]

Idiotic imbeciles,

As the King of the concessions crew, I hope you realize by now the irreplaceable loss this group now faces without the likes of myself and the elite team I built around me

Armed with the experience of a decade of an industry shaping 2% pay raise & world worst hourly rates, the new Kids on the Block lead by their lead singer the Madame Chair and supported by their US franchise, simply can not match my basement bottom prices and performance.

The 10% pay reduction we peddled to the membership and successfully got ratified was a testament of the synergies we built in membership milking. It was a permanent concession that saved this airline and secure its future growth. Without giving a lot, we will never get a little, something this new TikTok gen needs to figure out


You ask what you're expecting but I wouldn't expect much from this lot. This new new relationship will fail compared to my enshrined ethos of playing nice to management and being hard on the membership. That is what a true union does. Takes care of the company

These idiots now just don't have a clue as they send trainloads of membership dues across the border to a professional union.

ALPA may have rid the industry of pink tails, but I personally helped erradicate any perks at Rouge. Less Money in the pockets of the pilots means less corporate cost and expansion. You can all thank me later when you are junior Captains with industry worst pay & working conditions.

I close by saying you will be lucky to get any gains with this new leadership group. As the non-elected official forum troll of the opposition, I vow to continue my campaign of gaslighting the pilot group in my attempt to unify the pilots against a common enemy. Myself.

Regards,
Mike

God I was hoping to hear from you after the posts on the AC forum.

MADAM CHAIR!

[RippleRock]

You can bet were all unified against our former Chair.

He was the -absolute worst- of them all, lowest of the low. He's now a bad smell that just won't leave the room. The arrogance of him having -anything to say- after what he left us with is astounding. My bet he's lonely on layovers and is trying to justify his failure as our leader to those who shun him.

More likely he is just a bleeding narcissist and can't fathom why we don't all love him. He is without a doubt, the absolute definition of Union failure.

[RippleRock]

I absolutely think they will compare many pay scales during negotiations. I’m personally curious as to others want for improvements other than pay.

Higher daily credit, proper vacation credit, training inside the blocking widow, better reserve rules, better bidding, better pairing construction. That’s just off the top of my head. Do I think we’ll get all of that? Not all on this contract. But we need to get a start on it.

And I’m sure that’s exactly the mindset the Americans are going into their negotiations with with their unparalleled gains.

Canadian pilot mentality succinctly exhibited right here folks. Defeatist attitude right from the get go.

AC CEO was thinking that when he started his own negotiations.

Canadian pilots are so far behind the industry average, this is not the time for a half-assed conciliatory mindset where we expect to really only negotiate for half of what we need and then accept half of that at the end.

No pilots no flights. Simple as that. Remember your worth. AC CEO sure knows his.

x100. Agreed.

If you can't stand up -unified- for industry standard gains, get out of the damn way while others do it for you. It's sad that some of us will be an impediment to success. Rather than let their lousy attitude defeat us, we must find a way to defeat them.

[Stu Pidasso]

It is time for Air Canada to show some class and treat the Pilots properly. Without dragging this through the media like Westjet did and without insulting opening offers. Their age old reply, " whatever we give you, we have to give to the other employees" is DEAD in the water.

The other employee groups are on par, or above, their North American counterparts and have kept up far better than us to their 2003 wages. Not to mention there is no global shortage of F/A's, rampies and ticket agents.

[M.Caribou]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about wages and working conditions here at AC.

From a simple supply/demand stand point, I still do not understand what leverage AC pilots have to get massive uplifts in pay? Everyone and their three legged dog is applying to AC and willing to trample over their dying family members for a chance to work for $50k a year. There is no shortage of fresh ATPLs with 6 months right seat 705 time applicants to fill the 6000 quota.

No one is leaving AC for Westjet. The few who can work in the USA are already gone or in the process. AC knows most people have the seniority handcuffs on tight now. So what leverage do we honestly have.

"Well UAL and AA are paying half a million......."
Quit AC and go down there!

"We're professionals blah blah blah"

"We have ALPA now so their lawyers will undue the years of ACPA incompetence"
They can only do so much with whatever leverage they might have

"We're going to strike at Christmas"
Goodluck

Simply put, there's no other competition for a better mainline job in Canada. I don't see many people quitting and going to WJ or Porter.

I'm not looking to start a fight, but looking for honest, REALISTIC view points on how ALPA plans to make gains.

[Kennythegreat]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about wages and working conditions here at AC.

From a simple supply/demand stand point, I still do not understand what leverage AC pilots have to get massive uplifts in pay? Everyone and their three legged dog is applying to AC and willing to trample over their dying family members for a chance to work for $50k a year. There is no shortage of fresh ATPLs with 6 months right seat 705 time applicants to fill the 6000 quota.

No one is leaving AC for Westjet. The few who can work in the USA are already gone or in the process. AC knows most people have the seniority handcuffs on tight now. So what leverage do we honestly have.

"Well UAL and AA are paying half a million......."
Quit AC and go down there!

"We're professionals blah blah blah"

"We have ALPA now so their lawyers will undue the years of ACPA incompetence"
They can only do so much with whatever leverage they might have

"We're going to strike at Christmas"
Goodluck

Simply put, there's no other competition for a better mainline job in Canada. I don't see many people quitting and going to WJ or Porter.

I'm not looking to start a fight, but looking for honest, REALISTIC view points on how ALPA plans to make gains.

That's what I've been saying!

I mean look at Delta, American, and United!

Pilots were totally jumping ship to go to Atlas, Kalitta, Cathay, SkyWest before they brought in those contracts!

They had no leverage either!!

FedEx & UPS isn't even hiring. I hope those pilots are expecting concessions because that is how it works in aviation!!

[Fanblade]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about wages and working conditions here at AC.

From a simple supply/demand stand point, I still do not understand what leverage AC pilots have to get massive uplifts in pay? Everyone and their three legged dog is applying to AC and willing to trample over their dying family members for a chance to work for $50k a year. There is no shortage of fresh ATPLs with 6 months right seat 705 time applicants to fill the 6000 quota.

No one is leaving AC for Westjet. The few who can work in the USA are already gone or in the process. AC knows most people have the seniority handcuffs on tight now. So what leverage do we honestly have.

"Well UAL and AA are paying half a million......."
Quit AC and go down there!

"We're professionals blah blah blah"

"We have ALPA now so their lawyers will undue the years of ACPA incompetence"
They can only do so much with whatever leverage they might have

"We're going to strike at Christmas"
Goodluck

Simply put, there's no other competition for a better mainline job in Canada. I don't see many people quitting and going to WJ or Porter.

I'm not looking to start a fight, but looking for honest, REALISTIC view points on how ALPA plans to make gains.

You’re looking at the pay increases in the US and wrongly attributing the gains solely to a supply and demand issue.

The same issue you point to exists with United, Delta and American. Absolutely no shortage of pilot applicants. No retention issues whatsoever. Seniority lists discourage movement. Yet the pilots of these companies have led pilot compensation increases. Why is that?

On the flip side the companies that are having attraction and retention issues in the US trail the wages of the big three. But they are the ones impacted the most by shortage. So what gives?

The pilot shortage in and of itself does not translate into higher wages accept at the very bottom of the labour chain. That last job leftover and not filled. The wage increases push up from the bottom. There are no retention issues for older pilots at the top of seniority bands at almost all airlines. So a pure supply and demand/retention argument would only see wage increases going to the lower seniority bands. But that isn’t what is happening is it.

The component you are missing is unions.

How did the big three get industry leading contracts without a supply and demand problem? They stood up and demanded it. The supply issue certainly provides a tailwind at the bottom but it does not replace the fact pilots still need to stand up and demand that their value is recognized and properly compensated. Pilots have to stand up and demand market rates.

Unless you make them pay? They won’t. The lack of willingness to “make them” has been the largest hurdle for Canadian pilots achieving North American market rates. That just changed.

[rudder]

https://apple.news/Av1YRou1iQ2KD1fCoN9TEsw

[JustaCanadian]

https://apple.news/Av1YRou1iQ2KD1fCoN9TEsw

UPS drivers in Canada don't make that. They are just Canadian drivers. Of course a parcel delivery driver in US makes more than most Canadian pilots.

You sleep in the bed you make, Canada.

[pitottubey]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about wages and working conditions here at AC.

From a simple supply/demand stand point, I still do not understand what leverage AC pilots have to get massive uplifts in pay? Everyone and their three legged dog is applying to AC and willing to trample over their dying family members for a chance to work for $50k a year. There is no shortage of fresh ATPLs with 6 months right seat 705 time applicants to fill the 6000 quota.

No one is leaving AC for Westjet. The few who can work in the USA are already gone or in the process. AC knows most people have the seniority handcuffs on tight now. So what leverage do we honestly have.

"Well UAL and AA are paying half a million......."
Quit AC and go down there!

"We're professionals blah blah blah"

"We have ALPA now so their lawyers will undue the years of ACPA incompetence"
They can only do so much with whatever leverage they might have

"We're going to strike at Christmas"
Goodluck

Simply put, there's no other competition for a better mainline job in Canada. I don't see many people quitting and going to WJ or Porter.

I'm not looking to start a fight, but looking for honest, REALISTIC view points on how ALPA plans to make gains.

You’re looking at the pay increases in the US and wrongly attributing the gains solely to a supply and demand issue.

The same issue you point to exists with United, Delta and American. Absolutely no shortage of pilot applicants. No retention issues whatsoever. Seniority lists discourage movement. Yet the pilots of these companies have led pilot compensation increases. Why is that?

On the flip side the companies that are having attraction and retention issues in the US trail the wages of the big three. But they are the ones impacted the most by shortage. So what gives?

The pilot shortage in and of itself does not translate into higher wages accept at the very bottom of the labour chain. That last job leftover and not filled. The wage increases push up from the bottom. There are no retention issues for older pilots at the top of seniority bands at almost all airlines. So a pure supply and demand/retention argument would only see wage increases going to the lower seniority bands. But that isn’t what is happening is it.

The component you are missing is unions.

How did the big three get industry leading contracts without a supply and demand problem? They stood up and demanded it. The supply issue certainly provides a tailwind at the bottom but it does not replace the fact pilots still need to stand up and demand that their value is recognized and properly compensated. Pilots have to stand up and demand market rates.

Unless you make them pay? They won’t. The lack of willingness to “make them” has been the largest hurdle for Canadian pilots achieving North American market rates. That just changed.

This ^

[DanWEC]

Lufthansa just got about 19% last month.

All these airlines that were already paying their pilots substantially more are simply running further away with raises.

What's wrong with demanding minimum 50-100% increase? All that would do it bring us up the the same level.
You can't let the company intimidate you and play on your human nature by saying it's too much. It just makes it fair and in-line with everyone else. How is that too much? We should accept less? Why?

[M.Caribou]

I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about wages and working conditions here at AC.

From a simple supply/demand stand point, I still do not understand what leverage AC pilots have to get massive uplifts in pay? Everyone and their three legged dog is applying to AC and willing to trample over their dying family members for a chance to work for $50k a year. There is no shortage of fresh ATPLs with 6 months right seat 705 time applicants to fill the 6000 quota.

No one is leaving AC for Westjet. The few who can work in the USA are already gone or in the process. AC knows most people have the seniority handcuffs on tight now. So what leverage do we honestly have.

"Well UAL and AA are paying half a million......."
Quit AC and go down there!

"We're professionals blah blah blah"

"We have ALPA now so their lawyers will undue the years of ACPA incompetence"
They can only do so much with whatever leverage they might have

"We're going to strike at Christmas"
Goodluck

Simply put, there's no other competition for a better mainline job in Canada. I don't see many people quitting and going to WJ or Porter.

I'm not looking to start a fight, but looking for honest, REALISTIC view points on how ALPA plans to make gains.

You’re looking at the pay increases in the US and wrongly attributing the gains solely to a supply and demand issue.

The same issue you point to exists with United, Delta and American. Absolutely no shortage of pilot applicants. No retention issues whatsoever. Seniority lists discourage movement. Yet the pilots of these companies have led pilot compensation increases. Why is that?

On the flip side the companies that are having attraction and retention issues in the US trail the wages of the big three. But they are the ones impacted the most by shortage. So what gives?

The pilot shortage in and of itself does not translate into higher wages accept at the very bottom of the labour chain. That last job leftover and not filled. The wage increases push up from the bottom. There are no retention issues for older pilots at the top of seniority bands at almost all airlines. So a pure supply and demand/retention argument would only see wage increases going to the lower seniority bands. But that isn’t what is happening is it.

The component you are missing is unions.

How did the big three get industry leading contracts without a supply and demand problem? They stood up and demanded it. The supply issue certainly provides a tailwind at the bottom but it does not replace the fact pilots still need to stand up and demand that their value is recognized and properly compensated. Pilots have to stand up and demand market rates.

Unless you make them pay? They won’t. The lack of willingness to “make them” has been the largest hurdle for Canadian pilots achieving North American market rates. That just changed.

I’m going to have to disagree with you on the supply and demand problem at the majors. What other reason would American have to suddenly match United’s TA overnight if there wasn’t a competition for competent talent. They didn’t even put up a fight! The union put out a couple press releases and took all the credit. This is pure economics.

Even if AC gave the junior flat pay guys and gals 25%, they’re still making less than the King Air drivers in the North. Truth is AC knows those people would rather go broke drinking Starbucks from T1 then go back. And without large competition for talent, I really don’t see the leverage we have other than standing in arrivals loop screaming and holding signs.

WestJet pilots had leverage. They were bleeding pilots and only getting Metro FOs applying. The same can’t be said for AC.