Transition from the bush to an airline - I could really use some advice

[Rubber Duck]

Dear Avcanada

I am a ~1500 hour pilot on my 4th season of northern bush flying and I am considering moving into the 705 world. As much as I love the bush, I think that I'll regret it if I don't take advantage of the current hiring boom everyone is talking about these days and try to get my foot in the door at an airline or at least a commuter operation. I have a group 1 IFR rating which is not currently valid. Almost all of my time is on single engine aircraft on floats and I have no multi crew experience, although I do have some turbine PIC time (~150hr). I don't have an ATPL, nor have I written the IATRA. I know it's all subjective, but in addition to the following questions I was wondering if there was anyone out there who's made the same transition and wouldn't mind sharing some advice. I hope you guys can help me out! My specific questions are:

1. I've talked to several Legacy crews lately and they all say that a guy with my experience should be able to land a job at Westjet or Air Canada without too much difficulty. I don't know if I really believe that (obviously I'm still going to try), but if it was possible, would going directly to one of those carriers be the best choice? Or would it be more beneficial to work for a medevac company or someone like Calm Air to gain some IFR experience before going to the airlines? I have literally 0 IFR experience since getting my rating at Cornwall in 2020.

2. On the topic of IFR: obviously I'll have to renew my rating before thinking about applying to any company. I see a lot of flight schools offering renewals in simulators. How good do I need to be with my IFR work to get hired at a 704/705 operation? Is it worth it for me to rent some time in a real airplane while I do my renewal? I've heard that most interview processes have a simulator test phase, which will definitely be my biggest hurdle - even when my rating was valid I struggled with IFR stuff. Do I need to train for a ton of hours to hone my skills to the point where they are perfect, or is the simulator evaluation in an interview more about assessing a candidate's basic skills, calmness under pressure, and critical thinking? I know this will vary between companies, but any insight would be very valuable!

3. What does the airline hiring and interview process look like? What should I know off the top of my head? I'm assuming they'll be asking aviation related questions, but are there other factors I haven't thought of? What is the appropriate attire for an interview? Any job I've had in the past would've immediately turned me down if I showed up in a suit, so this whole white collar thing is new to me. Where can I go to understand the credit and bidding systems? I'd like to have a fundamental knowledge of how these things work before I show up for an interview. How long on average does it take to go from being hired to completing training and starting line indoc? Do they pay pilots during that time or do I need to save a bunch of money so I can survive while my training gets completed? At what point is a pilot considered "hired"? Do candidates have to complete the training before being extended an offer, or would they officially be hired after a few interviews and a sim evaluation?

4. With my current time at just under 1500 hours (I may break 1500 by the end of this year's float season, but I don't know for sure), should I write the ATPL exams or just the IATRA? Do I need to do both since even after I pass 1500 hours I still won't meet the ATPL instrument and multi hours requirements? Can I even get hired at a 705 without an ATPL? I'm a bit confused on this subject because I hear about 200 hour CPL students getting hired straight out of flight school with only an IATRA and clearly they wouldn't meet the requirements.

5. I don't have a college degree or any kind of post-secondary education. Would this present an obstacle in todays hiring market?

Sorry for the long post guys. I hope to hear something back from you soon!

Best Wishes

Rubber Duck

[fish4life]

1500 hours all single VFR would make it very tough to be competitive for either WJ or AC.

If you know your IFR is a bit rough do a refresher in a red bird sim or something at a flight school. 705 airlines are there to teach you how to fly the aircraft you get hired on and they aren’t going to have time to teach you also how to fly IFR. If you mess up the odd thing in sim the instructors will help you with it but you will be completely overwhelmed trying to figure out what to do with the airplane as well as how to fly IFR.

Write you ATPL exams

Any reputable airline will pay you during training.

[altiplano]

Dear Avcanada

I am a ~1500 hour pilot on my 4th season of northern bush flying and I am considering moving into the 705 world. As much as I love the bush, I think that I'll regret it if I don't take advantage of the current hiring boom everyone is talking about these days and try to get my foot in the door at an airline or at least a commuter operation. I have a group 1 IFR rating which is not currently valid. Almost all of my time is on single engine aircraft on floats and I have no multi crew experience, although I do have some turbine PIC time (~150hr). I don't have an ATPL, nor have I written the IATRA. I know it's all subjective, but in addition to the following questions I was wondering if there was anyone out there who's made the same transition and wouldn't mind sharing some advice. I hope you guys can help me out! My specific questions are:

1. I've talked to several Legacy crews lately and they all say that a guy with my experience should be able to land a job at Westjet or Air Canada without too much difficulty. I don't know if I really believe that (obviously I'm still going to try), but if it was possible, would going directly to one of those carriers be the best choice? Or would it be more beneficial to work for a medevac company or someone like Calm Air to gain some IFR experience before going to the airlines? I have literally 0 IFR experience since getting my rating at Cornwall in 2020.

Apply where you want to work. You won't get hired at WJ or AC with your current experience, but if you meet the minimum requirements and that's your eventual goal, start applying. I think you'd find yourself easily hired into a regional... I would skip 704 altogether and get on a 705 machine, you want an airline job, right? Sim training at 705s will get you thinking and transitioning to IFR pretty quick.

2. On the topic of IFR: obviously I'll have to renew my rating before thinking about applying to any company. I see a lot of flight schools offering renewals in simulators. How good do I need to be with my IFR work to get hired at a 704/705 operation? Is it worth it for me to rent some time in a real airplane while I do my renewal? I've heard that most interview processes have a simulator test phase, which will definitely be my biggest hurdle - even when my rating was valid I struggled with IFR stuff. Do I need to train for a ton of hours to hone my skills to the point where they are perfect, or is the simulator evaluation in an interview more about assessing a candidate's basic skills, calmness under pressure, and critical thinking? I know this will vary between companies, but any insight would be very valuable!

At most I would do the group 1 renewal, if that... the type rating where ever you get hired will renew your group 1 anyway.

3. What does the airline hiring and interview process look like? What should I know off the top of my head? I'm assuming they'll be asking aviation related questions, but are there other factors I haven't thought of? What is the appropriate attire for an interview? Any job I've had in the past would've immediately turned me down if I showed up in a suit, so this whole white collar thing is new to me. Where can I go to understand the credit and bidding systems? I'd like to have a fundamental knowledge of how these things work before I show up for an interview. How long on average does it take to go from being hired to completing training and starting line indoc? Do they pay pilots during that time or do I need to save a bunch of money so I can survive while my training gets completed? At what point is a pilot considered "hired"? Do candidates have to complete the training before being extended an offer, or would they officially be hired after a few interviews and a sim evaluation?

You have too many questions in there, pick an airline and then ask and don't worry about half of that until you get hired.

4. With my current time at just under 1500 hours (I may break 1500 by the end of this year's float season, but I don't know for sure), should I write the ATPL exams or just the IATRA? Do I need to do both since even after I pass 1500 hours I still won't meet the ATPL instrument and multi hours requirements? Can I even get hired at a 705 without an ATPL? I'm a bit confused on this subject because I hear about 200 hour CPL students getting hired straight out of flight school with only an IATRA and clearly they wouldn't meet the requirements.

Write your ATPLs. Don't worry about the rest.

5. I don't have a college degree or any kind of post-secondary education. Would this present an obstacle in todays hiring market?

It's an asset, but not a necessity. Guys get hired with only high school. But you have to make it up with experience and interview well.

Sorry for the long post guys. I hope to hear something back from you soon!

Best Wishes

Rubber Duck

[pilotidentity]

All the above by Altiplino says is right.

First things first. Take the steps to get your ATPL first. You will then get on with a 705. Others on here will know the best places where Air Canada likes to hire from. Once there you will have all your other questions answered by those around you and will end up where you want to be.

You will learn a lot at the 705 as almost every young person there will have the goal of going to Air Canada. Many of the "good" Captains will be going off to Air Canada soon and will reveal to you the best way to go about it, just as they did!

Good luck Bud

[co-joe]

First step is get that IFR valid and current, I know WS has a check box on the application for Valid group 1, if you click no, your application gets automatically rejected. Absolutely write the ATPL exams, although not a requirement, they will be required to upgrade, and the airlines are looking for future Captains.

As far as timing, you're absolutely correct, it is now. If you want to go back to the bush, you can pull the rip cord at any time, but the good times only last so long.

[Oleo 4]

Rubber Duck,

Transitioning from the bush (VFR Floats) to a multi crew Airline can be done but it wont be at any of the legacy carriers without an intermediate step to gain some multi crew IFR operations in a King Air or Beech 1900D. The good news for you is lots of companies are currently looking for pilots so you shouldn't have any issue getting on somewhere in 703/704, even a right seat in a smaller 705. The step from floats to the airlines without a valid IFR is just too large of a gap for most airlines to gamble on. Not to mention most type rating courses are a bit of a fire hose, and it has been important in the past that the candidates have had some automation (Glass, A/P) experience.

Please don't take this a knock at all you have done and the dedication to your craft. You just need to bridge one small gap (1-2 years) and you would be a great choice for any airline. The course that I have taught focuses on building blocks and progressively gets busier towards the flight eval. In the past others have come from similar operations as you, but have struggled keeping up with the complexity, automation, and energy management.

Cheers
O

[‘Bob’]

In Europe they fly Airbuses with 250 hours. I bet that you could recover from a stall or land within the confines of a runway better than a lot of those pilots.

There’s no reason you need to do an intermediate step other than Canadian convention and the establishment that says “I paid my dues so you must pay yours!”

Especially at what they are paying and with the dearth of talent that’s out there.

[BTD]

It has nothing to do with skill or paying dues.

The simple fact is he won’t be competitive yet with other applicants with that experience at AC or WestJet. The employer will make that decision.

[‘Bob’]

And enduring empty ground schools, cancelled flights, no flow, inter-airline poaching, open hiring, and fruitless roadshows whilst doing so……..

[Rubber Duck]

Thanks everyone! I appreciate all the advice and I certainly don’t take the constructive criticism as a knock. I’ll treat it the same as the old first float job road trip - apply everywhere I can think of and hope for the best. I definitely won’t be sad to work at a small company for a bit. I guess it’s IFR renewal and ATPL exam time as soon as moose season ends.. wish me luck!

Rubber Duck

[altiplano]

He's not competitive AC or WJ, but he absolutely is top of the heap everywhere else with ATPLs written.

Don't sell yourself short. I think you have some good picks to make out there. Don't go get right seat on a Beech or something, I'd go to a 705 airline, work hard, and plan for a fast upgrade, Captain on a Dash or something... then you'll be competitive AC or WJ and have lots of options otherwise opened.

[Ruberr]

Thanks everyone! I appreciate all the advice and I certainly don’t take the constructive criticism as a knock. I’ll treat it the same as the old first float job road trip - apply everywhere I can think of and hope for the best. I definitely won’t be sad to work at a small company for a bit. I guess it’s IFR renewal and ATPL exam time as soon as moose season ends.. wish me luck!

Rubber Duck

Hi Guys,Free Fire Name
Best of luck with your job search and upcoming IFR renewal and ATPL exams, Rubber Duck! Your positive attitude will surely take you far in your aviation career.

[pelmet]

One never knows the hiring whims of various carriers, but ideally, the large amount of bush time with little else would be a great hinderance for any of the major carriers(I would not hire you at this point). But once you have some good IFR and 705 time at an intermediate carrier on multi-crew turbine aircraft, the bush time would be something that I would consider as a competitive advantage over someone who didn’t have it.

[Turboprops]

In Europe they fly Airbuses with 250 hours. I bet that you could recover from a stall or land within the confines of a runway better than a lot of those pilots.

There’s no reason you need to do an intermediate step other than Canadian convention and the establishment that says “I paid my dues so you must pay yours!”

Especially at what they are paying and with the dearth of talent that’s out there.

The classic “airline flying is so easy, just ILS to ILS!”

I’ve had my fair share of partnering up with people without 2 crew experience, or their last company’s 2 crew was really just single pilot with the other dude sitting there.

It’s not hard to learn SOP
It’s not hard to learn automation
It’s not hard to learn a jet
It’s not hard to fly a single engine approach
It’s not hard to learn how to deal with dispatch/maintenance/FA
It’s not hard to follow rules now that we’re not up North anymore.

None of the above is “hard”, but put all those together going through an initial course in a 705 environment is significantly harder than some of the 702/3/4 guys make it out to be.

I’ve seen a few pilots now that just can’t understand how autopilot works, absolutely no FMA awareness, once the autothrottle gets disengaged there’s no airspeed control anymore, and more.

So yea at the end of the day, you can emphasize stick and rudder all you want, but a pilot’s job is way more than just recoverying stalls

[‘Bob’]

Transitioning to a modern small turboprop is little different. They have nearly all of the automation modes the big jets have, even autothrottle.

Yet somehow they aren’t crashing all of the time. Automation fumbles, SOP deviations, and CRM lapses happen to everyone regardless of background or experience.

[digits_]

In Europe they fly Airbuses with 250 hours. I bet that you could recover from a stall or land within the confines of a runway better than a lot of those pilots.

There’s no reason you need to do an intermediate step other than Canadian convention and the establishment that says “I paid my dues so you must pay yours!”

Especially at what they are paying and with the dearth of talent that’s out there.

The classic “airline flying is so easy, just ILS to ILS!”

I’ve had my fair share of partnering up with people without 2 crew experience, or their last company’s 2 crew was really just single pilot with the other dude sitting there.

It’s not hard to learn SOP
It’s not hard to learn automation
It’s not hard to learn a jet
It’s not hard to fly a single engine approach
It’s not hard to learn how to deal with dispatch/maintenance/FA
It’s not hard to follow rules now that we’re not up North anymore.

None of the above is “hard”, but put all those together going through an initial course in a 705 environment is significantly harder than some of the 702/3/4 guys make it out to be.

I’ve seen a few pilots now that just can’t understand how autopilot works, absolutely no FMA awareness, once the autothrottle gets disengaged there’s no airspeed control anymore, and more.

So yea at the end of the day, you can emphasize stick and rudder all you want, but a pilot’s job is way more than just recoverying stalls

I'd also like to add that the selection processes at European airlines are much more stringent. Sometimes outright ridiculous. But it does seem to allow them to really select pilots that are very quick to learn.

A lot of Canadian 703 pilots would not pass a European airline selection process. Would most of them pass a European airline type rating course? Perhaps. But the 250 hour statement, while technically correct, does not tell the full story. As a random guess, I'd estimate at least half of the 250 hour pilots will never see the inside of a commercial cockpit, likely even more. A decade ago in my little bubble, only 10% got hired within 5 years.

Using the European reference an example, we could say that at least 10% of the 703 pilots would have no trouble flying a heavy jet.
In Canada we're trying to get close to 100% of 703 pilots in a jet. It stands to reason a significant mount of them will not find it easy, and would have some kind of trouble.

[Scantron]

With current applications and hiring at Porter/encore/jazz you would be an easy hire onto a q400. There are 800 hour instructors/172 survey pilots that are being hired currently. A Valid IFR and Atpl written and you should be in the right seat of a dash at a 705. 703 floats to 705 is a big jump but it is doable. It takes commitment, however most things at a 705 are written down somewhere. You will not get on at Ac with your time. I would go to whatever 705 dash operator will take you and start applying to Westjet and Aircanada as you approach 2000 hours. It’ll take you about a year to get to 2000 and you will then be competitive at ac and wj. If not continue to work away and upgrade at the regional. Obviously it doesn’t hurt to apply everywhere and see what happens. I would be wary of “flow” at any of the above operations. As we have seen lately it’s almost advantageous if you want to hired at a certain jet operation to work for the competitions regional. This may change again though no guarantees.

[330heavy]

What everyone said above. Get the IFR and ATPL written. Go to say Jazz, learn the SOPs and airline stuff for 6mths-year, and go left seat. World's your oyster after that.

[EPR]

In Europe they fly Airbuses with 250 hours. I bet that you could recover from a stall or land within the confines of a runway better than a lot of those pilots.

There’s no reason you need to do an intermediate step other than Canadian convention and the establishment that says “I paid my dues so you must pay yours!”

Especially at what they are paying and with the dearth of talent that’s out there.

The classic “airline flying is so easy, just ILS to ILS!”

I’ve had my fair share of partnering up with people without 2 crew experience, or their last company’s 2 crew was really just single pilot with the other dude sitting there.

It’s not hard to learn SOP
It’s not hard to learn automation
It’s not hard to learn a jet
It’s not hard to fly a single engine approach
It’s not hard to learn how to deal with dispatch/maintenance/FA
It’s not hard to follow rules now that we’re not up North anymore.

None of the above is “hard”, but put all those together going through an initial course in a 705 environment is significantly harder than some of the 702/3/4 guys make it out to be.

I’ve seen a few pilots now that just can’t understand how autopilot works, absolutely no FMA awareness, once the autothrottle gets disengaged there’s no airspeed control anymore, and more.

So yea at the end of the day, you can emphasize stick and rudder all you want, but a pilot’s job is way more than just recoverying stalls

Well said Turboprops and very true! (Rubber Duck, sent you a PM)