Is Jazz upgrading new hires with little to no type experience?

[Man_in_the_sky]

who's the most at risk.. The new fresh captain who's sharp and have the desire to do good. or the old captain who skips every briefing with every FO

[CanadaAir]

If the captain has less than 1000 hours on type, then they shouldn't be a captain on that type. Stay FO for the first 1000 hrs.

Say what? If a pilot is experienced enough, 25hrs of line indoc should be enough on a new type. Happens in corporate ops all the time.

Most corporate don't hire captains onto a jet who don't have previous jet experience, & to operate overseas & international if they don't have previous similar experience. Not from NWT king air.

[CanadaAir]

What could possibly go wrong

The captain, first officer, 2 flight attendants and 76 passengers died. The four people in the house died as a result of the accident.

How much risk will Jazz take for profit?

No one will want to fly Jazz if it happens.
Less expensive to issue pay increases to keep experienced captains.

This can be solved by Transport the same way they did in the states, by mandating a minimum hour requirement for Airlines. But they will likely wait for a major incident before they do, similar to the U.S.

1500 hr rule would cost Jazz much more than retaining experienced crew to prevent it from occuring

[CanadaAir]

I went direct entry captain with 0 hours on type on my last 3 type ratings at Jazz. Meet the qualifications, pass the training and line check. It’s not that big of a deal.

I agree with inverted here. You either have the decision making skills to be a captain or you don’t. What you fly is not the issue. Any monkey can learn an airplane.

Let's try to be more than monkeys.

There's other things than decision making & ability to use the controls.

With 0 hr on type, the captain won't know the aircraft as they should.

If you have 3 type ratings as captain at Jazz, then you have already worked with the company, with the routes & airports, with a larger aircraft as a captain.

It isn't ideal to have 0 hr on type, but at least you have similar experience compared to a new hire who's never flown with the company, routes & airports or experienced the differences between a small twin & a Q400 or jet.

[GodlvlPilot]

Used to fly king airs all arund north America and the arctic from busy airspace such as lax - den - phx and many more to sparse airports in the canadian north. Went to jazz upgraded in 6 months. I study pretty hard to be where I am and continually study all the spare time that I have.

[truedude]

The captain, first officer, 2 flight attendants and 76 passengers died. The four people in the house died as a result of the accident.

How much risk will Jazz take for profit?

No one will want to fly Jazz if it happens.
Less expensive to issue pay increases to keep experienced captains.

This can be solved by Transport the same way they did in the states, by mandating a minimum hour requirement for Airlines. But they will likely wait for a major incident before they do, similar to the U.S.

1500 hr rule would cost Jazz much more than retaining experienced crew to prevent it from occuring

Is it about saftey, or cost? If something big happens, I suspect TC will do it.

[daedalusx]

who's the most at risk.. The new fresh captain who's sharp and have the desire to do good. or the old captain who skips every briefing with every FO

Depends. We’ve all flown with with old really sharp guys and mediocre youngsters and vice versa. But ultimately, for the most part, there’s no shortcuts for “good experience” and the wisdom that comes with it.
If the old captain has flown the same type for 30 years and in all that time: never got a cador, flap overspeed, hard landing, never failed a ride or needed an extra trainer then absolutely I couldn’t care less that he skips the briefing. How much briefing do you really need on a YVR-YCD turn in Cavok wx ? Are you going to survive not hearing the emergency of the month spiel for the 30th time ? Are you going to write him up because he reads the newspaper or “studied the overhead panel” during cruise ?

It’s a very hard job to be a junior capt especially if you upgrade on a different type that you started with.
You might have to operate out of high density airports that you are unfamiliar with. You’ll most likely be called on short call reserve which will give you only little time to prepare yourself.
You no longer can rely on a “safety net” as the guy sitting next to you might only have 300 hours and also most likely inexperienced with high performance aircrafts. Maybe both of you have never landed on a short icy narrow runway with more than 20kts x-wind on a NPA and now you’re doing it for the first time after being called on a reserve CD with 3 hours of sleep …
Yeah I’ll take the grumpy baby boomer …

[digits_]

If the old captain has flown the same type for 30 years and in all that time: never got a cador, flap overspeed, hard landing, never failed a ride or needed an extra trainer then absolutely I couldn’t care less that he skips the briefing. How much briefing do you really need on a YVR-YCD turn in Cavok wx ?

Is that the only thing he skips? Or is it a symptom of a bit of a more systemically different attitude towards company SOPs and CRM concepts.

[truedude]

If the old captain has flown the same type for 30 years and in all that time: never got a cador, flap overspeed, hard landing, never failed a ride or needed an extra trainer then absolutely I couldn’t care less that he skips the briefing. How much briefing do you really need on a YVR-YCD turn in Cavok wx ?

Is that the only thing he skips? Or is it a symptom of a bit of a more systemically different attitude towards company SOPs and CRM concepts.

Or maybe it is because he/she has seen the SOPs continuously added to, to compensate for all the pilots and captains with no experience.

[digits_]

If the old captain has flown the same type for 30 years and in all that time: never got a cador, flap overspeed, hard landing, never failed a ride or needed an extra trainer then absolutely I couldn’t care less that he skips the briefing. How much briefing do you really need on a YVR-YCD turn in Cavok wx ?

Is that the only thing he skips? Or is it a symptom of a bit of a more systemically different attitude towards company SOPs and CRM concepts.

Or maybe it is because he/she has seen the SOPs continuously added to, to compensate for all the pilots and captains with no experience.

How's that relevant? You're either following them, or you're not.

But sounds like you did answer my question

[CanadaAir]

This can be solved by Transport the same way they did in the states, by mandating a minimum hour requirement for Airlines. But they will likely wait for a major incident before they do, similar to the U.S.

1500 hr rule would cost Jazz much more than retaining experienced crew to prevent it from occuring

Is it about saftey, or cost? If something big happens, I suspect TC will do it.

Then Jazz wouldn't have any sub 1500 hr pilots.
So where would the pilots come from?

Its in better interest of Jazz not crash, they might have to pay $200k for an fo if Jazz can't rely on non-ATPL

[CanadaAir]

This is not a recent development. This has been going on since 2-3 years prior to the COVID holiday.

Only restriction is green-on-green. 50 hours on type.

Even if it's not recent development, its not safe & should stop.

Some pilots may be benefitting from the quick upgrades & time on jets & higher pay, understood, its still not safe & should stop. Pilot may not like the idea of the stop.

What's more important, temporary high pay, or all the Jazz pilots out of work from a company shut down?

[truedude]

This is not a recent development. This has been going on since 2-3 years prior to the COVID holiday.

Only restriction is green-on-green. 50 hours on type.

Even if it's not recent development, its not safe & should stop.

Some pilots may be benefitting from the quick upgrades & time on jets & higher pay, understood, its still not safe & should stop. Pilot may not like the idea of the stop.

What's more important, temporary high pay, or all the Jazz pilots out of work from a company shut down?

How do you suggest it stop? Do you think the airline will just volunteer to stop hiring these guys? AC has already shown it will allow its regional network to rote because they don't want to pay. Do you think they will up the pay for pilots unless forced. Only Transport can make that happen, but applying the same rule as they have in the states. But can guarantee they won't do that until there is a major incident where crew qualifications are implicated as the cause.

[CanadaAir]

How do you suggest it stop? Do you think the airline will just volunteer to stop hiring these guys? AC has already shown it will allow its regional network to rote because they don't want to pay. Do you think they will up the pay for pilots unless forced. Only Transport can make that happen, but applying the same rule as they have in the states. But can guarantee they won't do that until there is a major incident where crew qualifications are implicated as the cause.

Like your thoughts

The suggestion would be the Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots really consider the risk thats going on & building worse over time. Now contract trainers might not even have experience with Jazz or the concept of junior fo & junior captains. The risks continuing to get worse.

The Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots should consider whether the risk's worth it to continue as is or start putting pressure on the company & TC to stop this.

If a crash does happen, on top of all the death, it will likely be the end of Jazz.
No one will want to fly with Jazz. AC will take a major hit that will take years to recover from.

Think of the headlines

“Air Canada crash kills 80
“Breaking News. Pilots of Air Canada crash both had less than 500 hours experience

Jazz would collapse. The pilots would be out of work or in limbo, lose their years of seniority & pensions. The flow would stop. The hiring at AC would shrink as passengers booked with WJ, Flair, Porter instead of AC.

Why would current Jazz pilots, especially senior ones want to take this risk? A risk of ending their careers at the company. For what benefit? Most agree that Jazz wages and conditions have fallen behind.

The MEC might want to talk to management immediately to stop this. If management doesn't listen then the MEC should get involved with TC. If TC doesn't react, then it will be TC's fault when the accident happens.
TC should see how insane this is getting.

Junior captains, junior fo, new contract trainers. Throw in some bad weather or maintenance issues, a bad schedule & fatigue. Pressure to fly more, extra hours a month at end of year to keep up with schedule.
The holes are aligning.

[Outlaw58]

How do you suggest it stop? Do you think the airline will just volunteer to stop hiring these guys? AC has already shown it will allow its regional network to rote because they don't want to pay. Do you think they will up the pay for pilots unless forced. Only Transport can make that happen, but applying the same rule as they have in the states. But can guarantee they won't do that until there is a major incident where crew qualifications are implicated as the cause.

Like your thoughts

The suggestion would be the Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots really consider the risk thats going on & building worse over time. Now contract trainers might not even have experience with Jazz or the concept of junior fo & junior captains. The risks continuing to get worse.

The Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots should consider whether the risk's worth it to continue as is or start putting pressure on the company & TC to stop this.

If a crash does happen, on top of all the death, it will likely be the end of Jazz.
No one will want to fly with Jazz. AC will take a major hit that will take years to recover from.

Think of the headlines

“Air Canada crash kills 80
“Breaking News. Pilots of Air Canada crash both had less than 500 hours experience

Jazz would collapse. The pilots would be out of work or in limbo, lose their years of seniority & pensions. The flow would stop. The hiring at AC would shrink as passengers booked with WJ, Flair, Porter instead of AC.

Why would current Jazz pilots, especially senior ones want to take this risk? A risk of ending their careers at the company. For what benefit? Most agree that Jazz wages and conditions have fallen behind.

The MEC might want to talk to management immediately to stop this. If management doesn't listen then the MEC should get involved with TC. If TC doesn't react, then it will be TC's fault when the accident happens.
TC should see how insane this is getting.

Junior captains, junior fo, new contract trainers. Throw in some bad weather or maintenance issues, a bad schedule & fatigue. Pressure to fly more, extra hours a month at end of year to keep up with schedule.
The holes are aligning.

Spoken like someone who truely has no clue what he is talking about.

Are ATPL holders with no previous 705 experience being awarded CA position on a jet at Jazz? Absolutely.

Are there any CA at Jazz that do not belong in the seat they occupy? Absolutely not!

Just because the contract allows any ATPL holder with enough seniority to bid and be awarded a CA position, does not mean that that pilot automatically slides in the left seat. One has to make it though the upgrade training and that is not a guarantee. Things may not be great at Jazz, but there is one thing that has NOT changed: The Standard is The Standard. ALL active and released pilots at Jazz meet the standard required for the position they hold.

58

[Old fella]

How do you suggest it stop? Do you think the airline will just volunteer to stop hiring these guys? AC has already shown it will allow its regional network to rote because they don't want to pay. Do you think they will up the pay for pilots unless forced. Only Transport can make that happen, but applying the same rule as they have in the states. But can guarantee they won't do that until there is a major incident where crew qualifications are implicated as the cause.

Like your thoughts

The suggestion would be the Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots really consider the risk thats going on & building worse over time. Now contract trainers might not even have experience with Jazz or the concept of junior fo & junior captains. The risks continuing to get worse.

The Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots should consider whether the risk's worth it to continue as is or start putting pressure on the company & TC to stop this.

If a crash does happen, on top of all the death, it will likely be the end of Jazz.
No one will want to fly with Jazz. AC will take a major hit that will take years to recover from.

Think of the headlines

“Air Canada crash kills 80
“Breaking News. Pilots of Air Canada crash both had less than 500 hours experience

Jazz would collapse. The pilots would be out of work or in limbo, lose their years of seniority & pensions. The flow would stop. The hiring at AC would shrink as passengers booked with WJ, Flair, Porter instead of AC.

Why would current Jazz pilots, especially senior ones want to take this risk? A risk of ending their careers at the company. For what benefit? Most agree that Jazz wages and conditions have fallen behind.

The MEC might want to talk to management immediately to stop this. If management doesn't listen then the MEC should get involved with TC. If TC doesn't react, then it will be TC's fault when the accident happens.
TC should see how insane this is getting.

Junior captains, junior fo, new contract trainers. Throw in some bad weather or maintenance issues, a bad schedule & fatigue. Pressure to fly more, extra hours a month at end of year to keep up with schedule.
The holes are aligning.

Spoken like someone who truely has no clue what he is talking about.

Are ATPL holders with no previous 705 experience being awarded CA position on a jet at Jazz? Absolutely.

Are there any CA at Jazz that do not belong in the seat they occupy? Absolutely not!

Just because the contract allows any ATPL holder with enough seniority to bid and be awarded a CA position, does not mean that that pilot automatically slides in the left seat. One has to make it though the upgrade training and that is not a guarantee. Things may not be great at Jazz, but there is one thing that has NOT changed: The Standard is The Standard. ALL active and released pilots at Jazz meet the standard required for the position they hold.

58

From someone on the outside, I would find in incomprehensible that any Canadian airline would let an individual occupy any seat( especially left) if there were doubts about said persons ability. Pardon my airline ignorance but isn’t there many checks utilized throughout training that would trigger concerns on skill sets. Wouldn’t an airline park/ cancel schedules due shortage rather than chance a serious incident. Having said that, there are well documented accidents in the US where , for sake of a better term , unqualified pilots was a major contributing factor. The Couglin Q400 crash is an example.

[Fanblade]

Having said that, there are well documented accidents in the US where , for sake of a better term , unqualified pilots was a major contributing factor. The Couglin Q400 crash is an example.

The Colgin Q400 accident had multiple contributing factors.

- FO's inexperience. Addressed by requiring 1500 hours
- Captain training. Not sure how that was addressed
- Lack of pay to be able to live in or even commute properly to an expensive domicile. Leading to fatigue.

Two of the three factors exist in Canadian aviation today. Not just at Jazz either.

YVR hotels reached prices no new hire could afford this summer. Nor can that new hire afford to live in YVR.

[BTD]

Having said that, there are well documented accidents in the US where , for sake of a better term , unqualified pilots was a major contributing factor. The Couglin Q400 crash is an example.

The Colgin Q400 accident had multiple contributing factors.

- FO's inexperience. Addressed by requiring 1500 hours
- Captain training. Not sure how that was addressed
- Lack of pay to be able to live in or even commute properly to an expensive domicile. Leading to fatigue.

Two of the three factors exist in Canadian aviation today. Not just at Jazz either.

YVR hotels reached prices no new hire could afford this summer. Nor can that new hire afford to live in YVR.

The FO had 2200 hrs. The 1500 hr rule ( while I am in favour) wouldn’t change that. It is mentioned in the report about her fatigue due to commuting and that she was sick (although it doesn’t say that contributed.

The capt was just a mess though, signified through his training history.

[QKZXKV]

Like your thoughts

The suggestion would be the Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots really consider the risk thats going on & building worse over time. Now contract trainers might not even have experience with Jazz or the concept of junior fo & junior captains. The risks continuing to get worse.

The Jazz MEC & Jazz pilots should consider whether the risk's worth it to continue as is or start putting pressure on the company & TC to stop this.

If a crash does happen, on top of all the death, it will likely be the end of Jazz.
No one will want to fly with Jazz. AC will take a major hit that will take years to recover from.

Think of the headlines

“Air Canada crash kills 80
“Breaking News. Pilots of Air Canada crash both had less than 500 hours experience

Jazz would collapse. The pilots would be out of work or in limbo, lose their years of seniority & pensions. The flow would stop. The hiring at AC would shrink as passengers booked with WJ, Flair, Porter instead of AC.

Why would current Jazz pilots, especially senior ones want to take this risk? A risk of ending their careers at the company. For what benefit? Most agree that Jazz wages and conditions have fallen behind.

The MEC might want to talk to management immediately to stop this. If management doesn't listen then the MEC should get involved with TC. If TC doesn't react, then it will be TC's fault when the accident happens.
TC should see how insane this is getting.

Junior captains, junior fo, new contract trainers. Throw in some bad weather or maintenance issues, a bad schedule & fatigue. Pressure to fly more, extra hours a month at end of year to keep up with schedule.
The holes are aligning.

Spoken like someone who truely has no clue what he is talking about.

Are ATPL holders with no previous 705 experience being awarded CA position on a jet at Jazz? Absolutely.

Are there any CA at Jazz that do not belong in the seat they occupy? Absolutely not!

Just because the contract allows any ATPL holder with enough seniority to bid and be awarded a CA position, does not mean that that pilot automatically slides in the left seat. One has to make it though the upgrade training and that is not a guarantee. Things may not be great at Jazz, but there is one thing that has NOT changed: The Standard is The Standard. ALL active and released pilots at Jazz meet the standard required for the position they hold.

58

From someone on the outside, I would find in incomprehensible that any Canadian airline would let an individual occupy any seat( especially left) if there were doubts about said persons ability. Pardon my airline ignorance but isn’t there many checks utilized throughout training that would trigger concerns on skill sets. Wouldn’t an airline park/ cancel schedules due shortage rather than chance a serious incident. Having said that, there are well documented accidents in the US where , for sake of a better term , unqualified pilots was a major contributing factor. The Couglin Q400 crash is an example.

Colgan Air is always a low hanging fruit argument for those who aren't completely informed.

[Inverted2]

This is not a recent development. This has been going on since 2-3 years prior to the COVID holiday.

Only restriction is green-on-green. 50 hours on type.

Even if it's not recent development, its not safe & should stop.

Some pilots may be benefitting from the quick upgrades & time on jets & higher pay, understood, its still not safe & should stop. Pilot may not like the idea of the stop.

What's more important, temporary high pay, or all the Jazz pilots out of work from a company shut down?

Not sure why you are singling out Jazz. What you are talking about is happening a most companies these days. I know tons of pilots who went to Air Canada with 2000 hours TT and multi engine PIC hours I could count on my fingers and toes and guess what? They were captains at AC a year or 2 later. The countryside obviously isn’t littered with crashed airplanes in case you haven’t noticed.