Where are the unions on this? doesn't alpa have lobbyist?

aspiringaviator wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:41 pm https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-re ... sport.html

Sure would be nice for the mainline and regionals to be part of the solution. You want to hire foreign works fine, sponsor 5 Canadians in flight instructor or 703 jobs for every 1 foreign pilot you bring in on a fast track program.

Nick678 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:22 pm Where are the unions on this? doesn't alpa have lobbyist?

The same ALPA we're all hoping would open up the US border to Canadian pilots?


Seriously though, it isn't good for the industry. But the damage will be fairly limited I think. Experienced pilots will not apply en masse, and inexperienced pilots will still have trouble finding that first job. Bad news for ab initio pilotd, but I don't think it will drag salaries down at the ATPL level.

Might be good news for Carson. Perhaps they won’t have to post weekly job ads for every position in the company anymore.

Wouldn't these pilots need to convert to a Canadian license?

Where are the unions on this? doesn't alpa have lobbyist?

Why don't you take the time to write them and ask the question? Then report back to us.

The same ALPA we're all hoping would open up the US border to Canadian pilots?

Never read anything of sorts from ALPA, do you have a reference?

Well, immigration has always been a part of Canada. Back in the 90s, we immigrated here because my dad's career was very saught after. He had a job less than a week after landing here and has worked until retirement. We never stayed on welfare or E.I. and I'd like to think we've contributed (and are still contributing) to this country, via taxes, integration and volunteering in our community. Imagine how much tax this man paid in 30 years of work as a P.Eng.

Moving on... Let's not act like Canadian pilots don't go abroad. There are many working in Asia, M.E. Africa, etc. The governement is addressing an issue, albeit the wrong way. It's up to us, and our unions, to fight for better working conditions. Our country is in big trouble with its housing crisis. I don't see too many foreign pilots lining up for an entry level job in Canada.

Specific work experience OR ability to speak French


Hahaha

Really don’t think you’re going to see a flood of experienced pilots coming here to work. Pay is far behind the rest of the world and cost of living is out of control. Maybe a few 250 hr seat warmers but that will be it.

Inverted2 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 19, 2023 2:30 pm Really don’t think you’re going to see a flood of experienced pilots coming here to work. Pay is far behind the rest of the world and cost of living is out of control. Maybe a few 250 hr seat warmers but that will be it.

You may see some utilizing this to immigrate to Canada, but certainly not in numbers that would be an extreme cause for concern.

Foreign 705-type airlines currently accepting Canadian pilot applications:

Ryanair
Copa
Emirates, Qatar, flyDubai
Multiple Chinese airlines
Fiji Airways
Bamboo Airways and Viettravel
Ethiopian
Peach, Jetstar, JAL and Skymark
Silkway
Avion Express
Royal Brunei


This isn't going to be a bad thing for aviation because the Canadian Federal Government is the #1 bad thing happening right now to Canadian Aviation. 3x the pilots who actually leaves to the US y/y is at least 3x in serious interest and 10x that in mild interest

Edit: Also:

Singapore Airlines
Tigerjet
Rwandair
Air Arabia Egypt
Riyadh Air
+++++

They are allowing 1000 people with experience in the transport industry. Out of that, we'll get what... 25 foreign pilots?

It will be but a trickle, not even noticeable or worth taking to the union.

1. The immigration process takes minimum 12 months if you lucky - last time I checked, IRCC had 850k backlog and people are waiting 6+ months for visitors visas and 24 months for PR. Who can wait that long? Very few are willing or able.

2. Low starting pay and seniority systems.

3. The few DEC positions (read liveable wage positions) are either based in the most expensive cities on the planet, or somewhere where its "too cold" or lack of job opportunities (for spouse/partner) for a foreign pilot and his/her family to imagine living. The perception of Canadian weather in other parts of the world will surprise you.

4. Most immigrant aviation workers, given the impact on our income from 2008, Covid, poor CBA's, don't have the reserves to pay for immigration and the huge expense of starting a new life in Canada (refer to point 3 above).

5. License conversion process - from ICAO to TC ATPL, you looking at a 6 month process from the day you start studying, if all stars align. Yes you can get a FLVC (initially) and exercise the endorsements on it, if current.

There are other places to go, where salaries, weather, cost of living and a wide-body rating does not register you for food-stamps.

Some will come for the passport, yes, and those are the dedicated ones who will make a difference here - I support that.

withaflash wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:12 am 5. License conversion process - from ICAO to TC ATPL, you looking at a 6 month process from the day you start studying, if all stars align. Yes you can get a FLVC (initially) and exercise the endorsements on it, if current.

More likely any pilots looking to make the move to Canada already have the Canadian license. They are likely a product of the system in place where our schools are plugged with foreign students getting a license because it's so much less expensive to train here vs elsewhere. After getting the Canadian license, they went home, spent a few years bombing around in either Boeing or Airbus equipment, and now want to immigrate to Canada. When they get here, go for a weekend seminar, write SARON and SAMRA the next day, and voila, they can upgrade the Canadian cpl they originally started with, and turn it into a Canadian ATPL.

goldeneagle wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:07 pm

withaflash wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:12 am 5. License conversion process - from ICAO to TC ATPL, you looking at a 6 month process from the day you start studying, if all stars align. Yes you can get a FLVC (initially) and exercise the endorsements on it, if current.

More likely any pilots looking to make the move to Canada already have the Canadian license. They are likely a product of the system in place where our schools are plugged with foreign students getting a license because it's so much less expensive to train here vs elsewhere. After getting the Canadian license, they went home, spent a few years bombing around in either Boeing or Airbus equipment, and now want to immigrate to Canada. When they get here, go for a weekend seminar, write SARON and SAMRA the next day, and voila, they can upgrade the Canadian cpl they originally started with, and turn it into a Canadian ATPL.

And even if they don't, it's still something that can be done during the PR application process. So the timeline is not really an issue, as PR application/processing will take significantly longer.

withaflash wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:12 am It will be but a trickle, not even noticeable or worth taking to the union.

1. The immigration process takes minimum 12 months if you lucky - last time I checked, IRCC had 850k backlog and people are waiting 6+ months for visitors visas and 24 months for PR. Who can wait that long? Very few are willing or able.

2. Low starting pay and seniority systems.

3. The few DEC positions (read liveable wage positions) are either based in the most expensive cities on the planet, or somewhere where its "too cold" or lack of job opportunities (for spouse/partner) for a foreign pilot and his/her family to imagine living. The perception of Canadian weather in other parts of the world will surprise you.

4. Most immigrant aviation workers, given the impact on our income from 2008, Covid, poor CBA's, don't have the reserves to pay for immigration and the huge expense of starting a new life in Canada (refer to point 3 above).

5. License conversion process - from ICAO to TC ATPL, you looking at a 6 month process from the day you start studying, if all stars align. Yes you can get a FLVC (initially) and exercise the endorsements on it, if current.

There are other places to go, where salaries, weather, cost of living and a wide-body rating does not register you for food-stamps.

Some will come for the passport, yes, and those are the dedicated ones who will make a difference here - I support that.

Conjecture of course (I say he said she said, and no data to prove it), but to support your claim I know a Canadian pilot couple coming back from Europe. And they already planning to go back to Europe, despite being a captain and FO. We are just not competitive enough vs. other countries to attract talent that builds our economy.

On the other hand, this just shows our worth. This just showcases that our contracts are below global standards and thus do not attract global talent.

Edit: Increased generalization for anonymity.

This will barely make any changes to pilot supply in the industry.

Skilled workers and, in particular, Flight Instructors, already have a specific path to Permanent Residency in Canada. That has been the case well before this current "shortage". All this seems to do is perhaps speed up the process with Immigration for pilots who have at least 6 months of recent relevant work experience.

They will still be required to get a TC medical, convert their licences etc. Although parts of our country tend to be xenophobic and, arguably, there can and should be a debate on what criteria we used for people immigrating to our country, Canada has always been a land of immigrants (coming from someone who is 13th generation Canadian). Also keep in mind this current demand in travel is being significantly helped along by a good mix of immigrants and their visitors who have been apart for the last few years due to COVID.

currysonic wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 4:07 pm Conjecture of course (I say he said she said, and no data to prove it), but to support your claim I know a highly qualified Canadian pilot couple coming back from Europe. And they already planning to go back to France, despite being a DEC and FO at one of the big 2. We are just not competitive enough vs. other countries to attract talent that builds our economy.

When did either AC or WJ start taking DEC ?

Me thinks there is a bit of storytelling happening here....

goldeneagle wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:22 pm

currysonic wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 4:07 pm Conjecture of course (I say he said she said, and no data to prove it), but to support your claim I know a highly qualified Canadian pilot couple coming back from Europe. And they already planning to go back to France, despite being a DEC and FO at one of the big 2. We are just not competitive enough vs. other countries to attract talent that builds our economy.

When did either AC or WJ start taking DEC ?

Me thinks there is a bit of storytelling happening here....

Flair, is #2 after AC

JBI wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:40 pm This will barely make any changes to pilot supply in the industry.

Skilled workers and, in particular, Flight Instructors, already have a specific path to Permanent Residency in Canada. That has been the case well before this current "shortage". All this seems to do is perhaps speed up the process with Immigration for pilots who have at least 6 months of recent relevant work experience.

They will still be required to get a TC medical, convert their licences etc. Although parts of our country tend to be xenophobic and, arguably, there can and should be a debate on what criteria we used for people immigrating to our country, Canada has always been a land of immigrants (coming from someone who is 13th generation Canadian). Also keep in mind this current demand in travel is being significantly helped along by a good mix of immigrants and their visitors who have been apart for the last few years due to COVID.

Just like the housing market eh? You don't need to be xenophobic to see how Canada has been devastated because of mass immigration. As a pilot, I don't understand how you could ever support this. But then again James, you guys also voted in that shit WestJet contract that was supposed to be groundbreaking so clearly you don't value your profession enough to see past your political bias. Hey, maybe you can sell some more e-books to the new Canadians . No wonder ALPA has been awful with folks like you on the negotiating committee.

sullecpt wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:11 am You don't need to be xenophobic to see how Canada has been devastated because of mass immigration. As a pilot, I don't understand how you could ever support this.

Does that mean you'd say 'no' if you had the chance to go work in the US?

Or are you going to convince yourself how that's a completely different situation?

digits_ wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:19 am

sullecpt wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:11 am You don't need to be xenophobic to see how Canada has been devastated because of mass immigration. As a pilot, I don't understand how you could ever support this.

Does that mean you'd say 'no' if you had the chance to go work in the US?

Or are you going to convince yourself how that's a completely different situation?

I assume you're implying that wanting to go to the US but not wanting immigration in Canada is hypocritical. Sure it could be, if you look at it from the "I got mine screw you" perspective. I don't think anyone is saying they do not want an immigrant to succeed in creating a better life, the real criticism is the en masse immigration we are seeing in Canada now.

Economically it is different. Personally, I don't think that these new policies will change much for us in our industry in Canada. That being said, Every single 705 pilot could leave Canada for the US and they would STILL have a shortage. Its not xenophobic to realize the difference and the reality of Canada's current situation when it comes how mass immigration affects housing, the economy etc.

AirCandida wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:55 pm

goldeneagle wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:22 pm

currysonic wrote: ↑Wed Sep 20, 2023 4:07 pm Conjecture of course (I say he said she said, and no data to prove it), but to support your claim I know a highly qualified Canadian pilot couple coming back from Europe. And they already planning to go back to France, despite being a DEC and FO at one of the big 2. We are just not competitive enough vs. other countries to attract talent that builds our economy.

When did either AC or WJ start taking DEC ?

Me thinks there is a bit of storytelling happening here....

Flair, is #2 after AC

Number of aircraft in service today based on quick online search

Air Canada - 196
Jazz - 107
Westjet - 105
Encore - 47
Porter - 45
Transat - 36
Flair - 20

Maybe in your delusional world of 'alternate facts', Flair is number 2. But here in the real world, it's a relatively small new startup with a relatively small fleet in comparison to the established players.

sullecpt wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:11 am
Just like the housing market eh? You don't need to be xenophobic to see how Canada has been devastated because of mass immigration. As a pilot, I don't understand how you could ever support this. But then again James, you guys also voted in that shit WestJet contract that was supposed to be groundbreaking so clearly you don't value your profession enough to see past your political bias. Hey, maybe you can sell some more e-books to the new Canadians . No wonder ALPA has been awful with folks like you on the negotiating committee.

Using my name but staying anonymous? That sounds pretty cowardly. Nonetheless, let me respond:

You don't need to be xenophobic to see how Canada has been devastated because of mass immigration

Never said I support mass immigration. This new policy is also not mass immigration. It specifically looks at qualifications of applicants prior to admitting them to Canada. That's the exact opposite of traditional mass immigration which doesn't look at any particular factors of who to admit a country.

As a pilot, I don't understand how you could ever support this.

I didn't say I supported it. I said that it will actually make very little difference to the industry. If you've done any research into Canadian Immigration you'd know that there are already many routes for non-Canadian pilots to obtain their Permanent Residency. If anything, this may slightly speed up the process to get a PR.

But then again James, you guys also voted in that shit WestJet contract that was supposed to be groundbreaking so clearly you don't value your profession enough to see past your political bias.

It's none of your business, but I haven't voted for the current Federal Gov't party in quite sometime; who I've voted for would probably surprise you. Notice I never said I'm in favour of "mass immigration", simply stated that Canada is a country of immigrants. About 18% of current Canadians are immigrants. That's slightly higher than the US where roughly 14% of current Americans are immigrants. By hard numbers of course, the US has 45 million immigrants and Canada has about 7.5 million immigrants.

Hey, maybe you can sell some more e-books to the new Canadians

My book was never sold as an e-book. It was only sold in softcover and it's no longer in print. I asked the publisher to remove it from print a number of years ago as it was published in 2007 and it's now quite out of date. Any copies that are still sold are used copies and I don't receive any royalties from them. So no, I can't sell e-books to new Canadians.

No wonder ALPA has been awful with folks like you on the negotiating committee.

I and 87% of WestJet pilots voted for the new Collective Agreement. I wasn't on the negotiating committee that negotiated this Collective Agreement. Neither I nor 1600 of my colleagues need to try and justify our decisions at this point.


It seems many of your posts are about how you are trying to immigrate to the US to fly for US carriers. It's too bad the US doesn't have a route to let skilled workers in the transportation sector to have a quicker route to getting a Visa, eh?

flyingcanuck wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:39 am

digits_ wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:19 am

sullecpt wrote: ↑Thu Sep 21, 2023 6:11 am You don't need to be xenophobic to see how Canada has been devastated because of mass immigration. As a pilot, I don't understand how you could ever support this.

Does that mean you'd say 'no' if you had the chance to go work in the US?

Or are you going to convince yourself how that's a completely different situation?

I assume you're implying that wanting to go to the US but not wanting immigration in Canada is hypocritical. Sure it could be, if you look at it from the "I got mine screw you" perspective. I don't think anyone is saying they do not want an immigrant to succeed in creating a better life, the real criticism is the en masse immigration we are seeing in Canada now.

Economically it is different. Personally, I don't think that these new policies will change much for us in our industry in Canada. That being said, Every single 705 pilot could leave Canada for the US and they would STILL have a shortage. Its not xenophobic to realize the difference and the reality of Canada's current situation when it comes how mass immigration affects housing, the economy etc.

That is what I'm implying.

The shortage in the US is at the same level as the shortage in Canada: the ATPL holders. In Canada you can put 500 hour pilots in an airliner, in the US you can't. But the supply of pilots is pretty much the same.

Sounds like you're going for the "convince yourself it's a completely different situation" option

Ask a US pilot if they would like it if a transport/pilot focused immigration stream would open up into the US. See if they would agree it's a different situation. Claiming that every single 705 pilot could leave Canada and work in the US might be true (not sure, let's assume it's true), but that doesn't mean only Canadians would get hired or apply. There's no reason to assume 'just Canadians' would be able to enter the US. If migration opens up, it's usually for a wide selection of nationalities.

You're not comparing "gobal immigrants into Canada" vs "Canadian immigrants only in to the US", you're comparing "global immigrants into Canada" with "global immigrants into the US". Would US pilots like that? Of course they wouldn't. But most Canadians on this board would jump on that opportunity if it arose.