Multiple High Speed RTO's Are a Bad Idea

[pelmet]

There is only so much braking energy available. And the hotter the brakes, the less effective they are. It is surprising how much heat they generate. As soon as I saw this incident, I was reminded of the guys that burned out a 737 doing multiple high-speed RTO(yes, there were pax on board but strange things happen in Africa).......

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... -0&lang=de

Don't do multiple RTO's or high speed taxiing and braking.


From TSB....

C-GNOV, a Piper PA-31 aircraft registered to C.F. Aviation Inc., was performing high speed taxi
runs on Runway 15/33 at Igloolik Airport (CYGT), NU with 2 pilots on board. There was no intent of
flight, and the purpose of the ground runs was to evaluate engine performance after fueling the
aircraft with barreled AVGAS and not damage the propellers on the gravel apron. After a few high-
speed taxi runs, the aircraft's brakes failed to respond, and the aircraft exited the end of Runway
33. The aircraft came to rest in a ditch, upright with damage to both propellers, forward fuselage,
and nose landing gear. Airport fire/rescue extinguished a small brake fire on the left main landing
gear. The ELT activated. The 2 pilots were not injured.

[digits_]

"Well boss, the good news is we didn't crash due to contaminated AvGas!"

[Donald]

But, why???

[cdnavater]

"Well boss, the good news is we didn't crash due to contaminated AvGas!"

That bad news, the props would have been better off doing a run up over gravel.
Most northern airports have a least a small cement or paved pad for run ups, nothing there?

[5x5]

If they could get approval to tie-up the runway and do high-speed taxi runs , why not just get approval to do engine run-ups sitting at the threshold?

[Donald]

If they could get approval to tie-up the runway and do high-speed taxi runs , why not just get approval to do engine run-ups sitting at the threshold?

Did you miss the fact that it's all gravel?

[goldeneagle]

If they could get approval to tie-up the runway and do high-speed taxi runs , why not just get approval to do engine run-ups sitting at the threshold?

Now I'm really curious. Who do you ask for 'approval' to tie up the runway at Igloolik ?

[rigpiggy]

Many arctic airports had a heavy rubber pad available for run/startup. That lasted until a twin otter sucked one into the props

[330heavy]

Whatever happened to sweeping the gravel from around the props?

[cdnavater]

Whatever happened to sweeping the gravel from around the props?

That works at idle and break away power but not feasible for a run up, I used to sweep the props and not move until I knew I could do the taxi and take off without stopping.

[NotDirty!]

Whatever happened to sweeping the gravel from around the props?

My trick was to pour some leftover coffee under the props after sweeping, to keep the dust down. We always seemed to have some unwanted coffee or other liquids, and I’m sure it saved some wear on props, engines, and paint.

[TailwheelPilot]

Look for water/dirt/barrel liner flakes before putting the pump in. Use a filter.
Why would one need to evaluate engine performance after fueling from drums of AVGAS?
If it was suspect would it not be better to figure out if it is good or not prior to putting it in the plane?

[digits_]

Look for water/dirt/barrel liner flakes before putting the pump in. Use a filter.
Why would one need to evaluate engine performance after fueling from drums of AVGAS?
If it was suspect would it not be better to figure out if it is good or not prior to putting it in the plane?

You can do a few tests before pumping it in a plane, but unless you travel with a chem lab, at some point you have to put it in a plane and see if it works.

[pelmet]

In the end, if you are in a situation where it has been decided that an engine run is needed that results in a significant braking requirement.....let the brakes cool adequately between the large brake applications. Of course, more time will be consumed using this method.

[newlygrounded]

"Well boss, the good news is we didn't crash due to contaminated AvGas!"

That bad news, the props would have been better off doing a run up over gravel.
Most northern airports have a least a small cement or paved pad for run ups, nothing there?

Always amazed people don't use google maps??

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Igloo ... 22024,289m

[rookiepilot]

"Well boss, the good news is we didn't crash due to contaminated AvGas!"

That bad news, the props would have been better off doing a run up over gravel.
Most northern airports have a least a small cement or paved pad for run ups, nothing there?

Always amazed people don't use google maps??

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Igloo ... 22024,289m

Yes, lets ask a non pilot for expert advice on operating on gravel…..

[newlygrounded]

That bad news, the props would have been better off doing a run up over gravel.
Most northern airports have a least a small cement or paved pad for run ups, nothing there?

Always amazed people don't use google maps??

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Igloo ... 22024,289m

Yes, lets ask a non pilot for expert advice on operating on gravel…..

Can I see your economics degree Rookie? I don't want to take financial advice from an amature

Do you see any hard paved area in this photo? Or do I need to be an ATPL to use my eyes?

[rookiepilot]

Always amazed people don't use google maps??

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Igloo ... 22024,289m

Yes, lets ask a non pilot for expert advice on operating on gravel…..

Can I see your economics degree Rookie? I don't want to take financial advice from an amature

Do you see any hard paved area in this photo? Or do I need to be an ATPL to use my eyes?

Tell us more.

Your technique for starting up and operating out of such an airport.

And no googling allowed.

[pelmet]

Yes, lets ask a non pilot for expert advice on operating on gravel…..

Can I see your economics degree Rookie? I don't want to take financial advice from an amature

Do you see any hard paved area in this photo? Or do I need to be an ATPL to use my eyes?

Tell us more.

Your technique for starting up and operating out of such an airport.

And no googling allowed.

Take the irrelevant stuff elsewhere. And learn how to spell amateur.

I don’t believe Igloolik has the concrete pad. Perhaps one could use its upslope to their advantage. In the late winter slippery season, it made operations more comfortable.

[cdnavater]

That bad news, the props would have been better off doing a run up over gravel.
Most northern airports have a least a small cement or paved pad for run ups, nothing there?

Always amazed people don't use google maps??

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Igloo ... 22024,289m

Yes, lets ask a non pilot for expert advice on operating on gravel…..

Are you directing that to me, I have more gravel time than I care to remember, easily a couple thousand gravel take offs and of course landings. As for Igloolik, last time I was up there was over 20 years ago and don’t usually think of using google maps to see but I see the high speed taxi runs were necessary, given there’s no pavement anywhere

[rookiepilot]

Always amazed people don't use google maps??

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Igloo ... 22024,289m

Yes, lets ask a non pilot for expert advice on operating on gravel…..

Are you directing that to me, I have more gravel time than I care to remember, easily a couple thousand gravel take offs and of course landings. As for Igloolik, last time I was up there was over 20 years ago and don’t usually think of using google maps to see but I see the high speed taxi runs were necessary, given there’s no pavement anywhere

No. To forever grounded, who I don’t believe is a licensed pilot.

Sucks what happened to this pilot of this thread….

[TailwheelPilot]

You can do a few tests before pumping it in a plane, but unless you travel with a chem lab, at some point you have to put it in a plane and see if it works.

Kind of the point. You do some basic checks (water/dirt/debris/colour/clarity/smell) and accept it is correct and usable or not. I have never come across someone who puts fuel in a plane to determine if it works. Nor anyone who did engine runs after fuelling from a drum to see if the fuel was good. In my experience, any drums of questionable fuel get put aside and used for less critical uses, it is simply not worth it to put it in a plane.

Hence why I am asking why one would need to do "ground runs...to evaluate engine performance after fueling the
aircraft with barreled AVGAS"

[cdnavater]

You can do a few tests before pumping it in a plane, but unless you travel with a chem lab, at some point you have to put it in a plane and see if it works.

Kind of the point. You do some basic checks (water/dirt/debris/colour/clarity/smell) and accept it is correct and usable or not. I have never come across someone who puts fuel in a plane to determine if it works. Nor anyone who did engine runs after fuelling from a drum to see if the fuel was good. In my experience, any drums of questionable fuel get put aside and used for less critical uses, it is simply not worth it to put it in a plane.

Hence why I am asking why one would need to do "ground runs...to evaluate engine performance after fueling the
aircraft with barreled AVGAS"

An abundance of caution maybe, me personally I would just run the engine at idle for a bit and be extra cautious during the take off run but I would think, of course depending how much fuel they added it would be apparent pretty quick.
Now, something else to consider, the multiple runs could be because they were detecting issues.

[digits_]

You can do a few tests before pumping it in a plane, but unless you travel with a chem lab, at some point you have to put it in a plane and see if it works.

Kind of the point. You do some basic checks (water/dirt/debris/colour/clarity/smell) and accept it is correct and usable or not. I have never come across someone who puts fuel in a plane to determine if it works. Nor anyone who did engine runs after fuelling from a drum to see if the fuel was good. In my experience, any drums of questionable fuel get put aside and used for less critical uses, it is simply not worth it to put it in a plane.

Hence why I am asking why one would need to do "ground runs...to evaluate engine performance after fueling the
aircraft with barreled AVGAS"

Good points. I am not sure how long you'd need to idle a Navajo to get the fresh fuel from the tanks to the engines to test. Then again, in such a plane it might be wiser to put the risky fuel in a seperate tank for cruise. But lots of variables.

[Donald]

The following accident report is good reading in regards to fuelling from drums, and whether or not a runup will detect problems:

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... c0123.html