WestJet Sunwing merger and seniority

[polpolbe]

Are there any perspective on WJ and SW merger regarding seniority? Any hints on how Sunwing CA and FO are going to merge into WestJet and if CA will maintain their position and not be retrograded to FO?

[Malfunction]

BOTL

[Canadaflyer46]

It won’t be BOTL. We have a merger committee working on it. But obviously when SWG has 4 year upgrades and WestJet is 10-12 years there are gonna be people losing their left seat.

[Donald]

It won’t be BOTL. We have a merger committee working on it. But obviously when SWG has 4 year upgrades and WestJet is 10-12 years there are gonna be people losing their left seat.

So you've done extensive research on previous mergers to substantiate your thoughts?

[Hangry]

Popcorn time

[Canpilot7]

Alpa has a merger policy that people can take a look at. The primary driver will almost surely be date of hire. They can adjust and shift here and there, but if I was betting on it I'd say it'll look a lot like date of hire and some fences thrown up to keep people in their seats.

Two companies with the same aircraft type in their fleet merging while they're both short of pilots makes this one of the easier merges we'll see. There's always gonna be some back and forth, but overall shouldn't be dramatic.

[ant_321]

BOTL

About as likely as TOTL.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I could see them merging based on DOH with a freeze of position.

[JBI]

It won’t be BOTL. We have a merger committee working on it. But obviously when SWG has 4 year upgrades and WestJet is 10-12 years there are gonna be people losing their left seat.

So you've done extensive research on previous mergers to substantiate your thoughts?

Yes. I've read the majority of previous airline merger arbitration decisions as well as general guidance on the principles of merged work groups. It won't be BOTL.

[Donald]

I could see them merging based on DOH with a freeze of position.

This is much more likely than "BOTL".

[nohojob]

I have no idea how the merge is going to go but if they start to kick people out of their base and seat, it could trigger a massive exodus considering the current hiring climate.

[Inverted2]

Even if you manage to keep your left seat with 4 years seniority from SWG you’ll very likely spend the rest of your career at the bottom of your roster after the merge.

[TFTMB heavy]

This is what ALPA encourages:

The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category.

Your date of hire is only a portion of the equation.

[polpolbe]

So basically what you say is that 250hrs 2022 Sunwing recruit are going to bypass 2023 1500+hrs 2023 WestJet by simply being added to seniority list from DOH ?

[ant_321]

So basically what you say is that 250hrs 2022 Sunwing recruit are going to bypass 2023 1500+hrs 2023 WestJet by simply being added to seniority list from DOH ?

Almost certainly. Just like the 250hr fo hired at swg in June is senior to the 4000 hr fo hired at swg in July.

[polpolbe]

So basically what you say is that 250hrs 2022 Sunwing recruit are going to bypass 2023 1500+hrs 2023 WestJet by simply being added to seniority list from DOH ?

Almost certainly. Just like the 250hr fo hired at swg in June is senior to the 4000 hr fo hired at swg in July.

That's not the same. At all. WJ doesn't hire 250hrs. It's like if suddenly Jazz and AC seniority merged with Jazz FO with just 500hrs bypassing AC FO with 3000hrs. These 2 FOs were recruited by different companies with different requirements, no one can say it's fair that way.

[ant_321]

So basically what you say is that 250hrs 2022 Sunwing recruit are going to bypass 2023 1500+hrs 2023 WestJet by simply being added to seniority list from DOH ?

Almost certainly. Just like the 250hr fo hired at swg in June is senior to the 4000 hr fo hired at swg in July.

That's not the same. At all. WJ doesn't hire 250hrs. It's like if suddenly Jazz and AC seniority merged with Jazz FO with just 500hrs bypassing AC FO with 3000hrs. These 2 FOs were recruited by different companies with different requirements, no one can say it's fair that way.

Is there really much difference between a 250hr pilot and a 1500hr one? I went from 250 to 1500 in just over a year. The example you use of jazz and air canada is just silly. They are completely different operations operating very different aircraft. That’s not the case with the Sunwing/WestJet situation.

[polpolbe]

Almost certainly. Just like the 250hr fo hired at swg in June is senior to the 4000 hr fo hired at swg in July.

That's not the same. At all. WJ doesn't hire 250hrs. It's like if suddenly Jazz and AC seniority merged with Jazz FO with just 500hrs bypassing AC FO with 3000hrs. These 2 FOs were recruited by different companies with different requirements, no one can say it's fair that way.

Is there really much difference between a 250hr pilot and a 1500hr one? I went from 250 to 1500 in just over a year. The example you use of jazz and air canada is just silly. They are completely different operations operating very different aircraft. That’s not the case with the Sunwing/WestJet situation.

Yes there is much difference. That's why majors don't hire freshly out of school pilots. And if you don't see the difference, I got now why you can't understand my "silly" example.

[ant_321]

That's not the same. At all. WJ doesn't hire 250hrs. It's like if suddenly Jazz and AC seniority merged with Jazz FO with just 500hrs bypassing AC FO with 3000hrs. These 2 FOs were recruited by different companies with different requirements, no one can say it's fair that way.

Is there really much difference between a 250hr pilot and a 1500hr one? I went from 250 to 1500 in just over a year. The example you use of jazz and air canada is just silly. They are completely different operations operating very different aircraft. That’s not the case with the Sunwing/WestJet situation.

Yes there is much difference. That's why majors don't hire freshly out of school pilots. And if you don't see the difference, I got now why you can't understand my "silly" example.

I train 250hr pilots and 1500hr pilots. 250hr pilots who come from legitimate college programs where they learn crm, multi crew operations and in many cases do multi crew simulator training, usually do better in training than the sub 2000hr pilot who did the standard turbo prop route. If you’re talking people with 3000+ hrs and significant PIC time then that’s a different story.

[Donald]

That's not the same. At all. WJ doesn't hire 250hrs. It's like if suddenly Jazz and AC seniority merged with Jazz FO with just 500hrs bypassing AC FO with 3000hrs. These 2 FOs were recruited by different companies with different requirements, no one can say it's fair that way.

Many things about aviation aren't "fair".

Mergers are a great example.

Welcome to airline flying.

[PropDog]

Almost certainly. Just like the 250hr fo hired at swg in June is senior to the 4000 hr fo hired at swg in July.

That's not the same. At all. WJ doesn't hire 250hrs. It's like if suddenly Jazz and AC seniority merged with Jazz FO with just 500hrs bypassing AC FO with 3000hrs. These 2 FOs were recruited by different companies with different requirements, no one can say it's fair that way.

Is there really much difference between a 250hr pilot and a 1500hr one? I went from 250 to 1500 in just over a year. The example you use of jazz and air canada is just silly. They are completely different operations operating very different aircraft. That’s not the case with the Sunwing/WestJet situation.

Yes

[Oleo 4]

Colleagues,

We can speculate and discuss until we are blue or in some cases red in the face. This process will develop and people will in the end be in different locations on the master pilot list. The merger committees will work in the best interest of the “entirety” of their respective groups. Please don’t let personal desires and wants create animosity or ill will towards the opposite Pilot group. It is my hope in the end of this that we all move on as one group and not be classified as Teal pilots or Orange pilots. As was the case in the Canadian/AC/off the street labelling of the past.

We are finally one JET AOC, let’s keep it classy as the committees progress.

O

[JBI]

Colleagues,

We can speculate and discuss until we are blue or in some cases red in the face. This process will develop and people will in the end be in different locations on the master pilot list. The merger committees will work in the best interest of the “entirety” of their respective groups. Please don’t let personal desires and wants create animosity or ill will towards the opposite Pilot group. It is my hope in the end of this that we all move on as one group and not be classified as Teal pilots or Orange pilots. As was the case in the Canadian/AC/off the street labelling of the past.

We are finally one JET AOC, let’s keep it classy as the committees progress.

O

+1

The merger committees of both airlines understand the different issues that are expressed here. Their respective legal counsel also understand the law as it pertains to previous arbitration (and court) decisions regarding airline pilot group mergers. Most of the posters here do not. Behind closed doors there will be some constructive and perhaps even hard negotiating that will be done in a professional manner on behalf of the respective pilot groups.

Personally, I'm really looking forward to working with some good friends from SWG once this merger is done. I do believe that, overall, it will be a good thing for our pilot groups. There will be issues to overcome and, like most mergers, there will be some people who don't get exactly what they were hoping for. But coming on here and shouting BOTL (when there's no realistic chance of that) or arguing about who has the more inexperienced pilot group doesn't help anything. It just builds unnecessary fear and uncertainty. The pilot career has enough uncertainty about it, let's not make it artificially more difficult for our current and future colleagues.

[Tony Soprano]

So basically what you say is that 250hrs 2022 Sunwing recruit are going to bypass 2023 1500+hrs 2023 WestJet by simply being added to seniority list from DOH ?

Almost certainly. Just like the 250hr fo hired at swg in June is senior to the 4000 hr fo hired at swg in July.

That's not the same. At all. WJ doesn't hire 250hrs. It's like if suddenly Jazz and AC seniority merged with Jazz FO with just 500hrs bypassing AC FO with 3000hrs. These 2 FOs were recruited by different companies with different requirements, no one can say it's fair that way.

What would you consider fair? Honest question.

[dontcallmeshirley]

What would you consider fair? Honest question.

You didn't ask me, but you're getting my answer anyway...

WS/WO/WR reserved seniority list and Sunwing seniority list merged based on date of hire. In the case of a WS/WO/WR start date on the same day as a WG start date, do a zipper merge with the WS pilot coming first (benefit to the purchasing airline).