1 Day Pairings on E2?

[aboveclouds]

Will there be more 1 day pairings available on the E2 once more destinations are added in the future?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Probably.

[braaap Braap]

Will there be more 1 day pairings available on the E2 once more destinations are added in the future?

I would not be holding my breath for 1 day pairings unless you're involved in the training department for the foreseeable future. A lot of them are getting held back for training

[flyinhigh]

Will there be more 1 day pairings available on the E2 once more destinations are added in the future?

I would not be holding my breath for 1 day pairings unless you're involved in the training department for the foreseeable future. A lot of them are getting held back for training

Exactly. Many of the senior flying, good single days are being held off the bid back for the training department. Must be nice to be a new hire trainer and have a clean, straight up schedule.

[braaap Braap]

Will there be more 1 day pairings available on the E2 once more destinations are added in the future?

I would not be holding my breath for 1 day pairings unless you're involved in the training department for the foreseeable future. A lot of them are getting held back for training

Exactly. Many of the senior flying, good single days are being held off the bid back for the training department. Must be nice to be a new hire trainer and have a clean, straight up schedule.

The joys of FOAG "flexibility"

[CaptDukeNukem]

Will there be more 1 day pairings available on the E2 once more destinations are added in the future?

I would not be holding my breath for 1 day pairings unless you're involved in the training department for the foreseeable future. A lot of them are getting held back for training

Exactly. Many of the senior flying, good single days are being held off the bid back for the training department. Must be nice to be a new hire trainer and have a clean, straight up schedule.

You must mean for the multiple line checks being done daily. Yes I guess they are being held off the schedule to get this operation going. I hear flair has lots of single days.

[cjp]

I would not be holding my breath for 1 day pairings unless you're involved in the training department for the foreseeable future. A lot of them are getting held back for training

Exactly. Many of the senior flying, good single days are being held off the bid back for the training department. Must be nice to be a new hire trainer and have a clean, straight up schedule.

You must mean for the multiple line checks being done daily. Yes I guess they are being held off the schedule to get this operation going. I hear flair has lots of single days.

It's funny the jealousy of so many unknowlegeable folks, until they actually get to see the work involved in getting people line indoc'd or checked, particularly when a candidate is struggling.

These 1 day pairings are mostly for the candidates, not the trainers, and the trainers are usually bouncing around with variable schedules, in constant demand to keep the operation flowing. The stress is constant.

I'm no line check pilot, but I'll tell you I'm in communication with a few on a regular basis, and they are always on the road (not always by choice).

[CaptDukeNukem]

Exactly. Many of the senior flying, good single days are being held off the bid back for the training department. Must be nice to be a new hire trainer and have a clean, straight up schedule.

You must mean for the multiple line checks being done daily. Yes I guess they are being held off the schedule to get this operation going. I hear flair has lots of single days.

It's funny the jealousy of so many unknowlegeable folks, until they actually get to see the work involved in getting people line indoc'd or checked, particularly when a candidate is struggling.

These 1 day pairings are mostly for the candidates, not the trainers, and the trainers are usually bouncing around with variable schedules, in constant demand to keep the operation flowing. The stress is constant.

I'm no line check pilot, but I'll tell you I'm in communication with a few on a regular basis, and they are always on the road (not always by choice).

+1

[Chaxterium]

Must be nice to be a new hire trainer and have a clean, straight up schedule.

I'm a new(ish) hire trainer and my schedule sucks. It's neither clean nor straight up. I can't remember what my kids look like.

[flyinhigh]

You must mean for the multiple line checks being done daily. Yes I guess they are being held off the schedule to get this operation going. I hear flair has lots of single days.

It's funny the jealousy of so many unknowlegeable folks, until they actually get to see the work involved in getting people line indoc'd or checked, particularly when a candidate is struggling.

These 1 day pairings are mostly for the candidates, not the trainers, and the trainers are usually bouncing around with variable schedules, in constant demand to keep the operation flowing. The stress is constant.

I'm no line check pilot, but I'll tell you I'm in communication with a few on a regular basis, and they are always on the road (not always by choice).

+1

As a current ACP (not on E2), former chief pilot for a 705/704/703 and 604 operations, I can assure you I am more than familiar with what is required to get an operation going.

I am 100% opposed to senior folks who have been here 16 years getting 3 YYT splits in a week and a half because the high credit day time YYC turns are taken for training.

[CaptDukeNukem]

It's funny the jealousy of so many unknowlegeable folks, until they actually get to see the work involved in getting people line indoc'd or checked, particularly when a candidate is struggling.

These 1 day pairings are mostly for the candidates, not the trainers, and the trainers are usually bouncing around with variable schedules, in constant demand to keep the operation flowing. The stress is constant.

I'm no line check pilot, but I'll tell you I'm in communication with a few on a regular basis, and they are always on the road (not always by choice).

+1

As a current ACP (not on E2), former chief pilot for a 705/704/703 and 604 operations, I can assure you I am more than familiar with what is required to get an operation going.

I am 100% opposed to senior folks who have been here 16 years getting 3 YYT splits in a week and a half because the high credit day time YYC turns are taken for training.

So as a current ACP, Do you not agree that trying to do a line check or even Line indoc on a split would be negative training

Maybe I should rephrase:
As an agent of the minister of transport, do you think quality training can be provided in between the hours of 2 am and 6 am?

[Chaxterium]

I am 100% opposed to senior folks who have been here 16 years getting 3 YYT splits in a week and a half because the high credit day time YYC turns are taken for training.

I'm in complete agreement with you. But right now a significant portion of our flying is training flights. And think we can all agree that training on a split is pretty useless. So unfortunately for now many (not all) of the longer trips are being devoted to training.

The good news is that our training throughput is going to remain constant but the pilot roster keeps growing and growing. The portion of flights that are training flights is going to continuously shrink. Hopefully in the near future our senior guys and girls will get the pairings and schedules they want.

[cjp]

It's funny the jealousy of so many unknowlegeable folks, until they actually get to see the work involved in getting people line indoc'd or checked, particularly when a candidate is struggling.

These 1 day pairings are mostly for the candidates, not the trainers, and the trainers are usually bouncing around with variable schedules, in constant demand to keep the operation flowing. The stress is constant.

I'm no line check pilot, but I'll tell you I'm in communication with a few on a regular basis, and they are always on the road (not always by choice).

+1

As a current ACP (not on E2), former chief pilot for a 705/704/703 and 604 operations, I can assure you I am more than familiar with what is required to get an operation going.

I am 100% opposed to senior folks who have been here 16 years getting 3 YYT splits in a week and a half because the high credit day time YYC turns are taken for training.

I myself am dealing with YYT splits this month, and I realize, it is for the greater good, that we will soon have more crews who will be handling these. For now its part of the growing phase.

Now that said, we knew when we accepted the job and even those transitioning over from the Q400 side, despite great seniority, knew that once they were released, part of being a normal line pilot early in an operation, we're going to have to eat some dirt from time to time. I see your complaints about the YYT splits. I do not believe that just because you or our colleagues feel their seniority deserves better that the YYT should be doled out for training instead so you can live kushy on a Calgary turn.

It will get better as the training starts to take a breather and we have an abundance of long routes.

Now you think thats bad, wait until we get the YVR red eyes with a connected Ottawa turn at 0700. Welcome to November.

[CaptDukeNukem]

+1

As a current ACP (not on E2), former chief pilot for a 705/704/703 and 604 operations, I can assure you I am more than familiar with what is required to get an operation going.

I am 100% opposed to senior folks who have been here 16 years getting 3 YYT splits in a week and a half because the high credit day time YYC turns are taken for training.

I myself am dealing with YYT splits this month, and I realize, it is for the greater good, that we will soon have more crews who will be handling these. For now its part of the growing phase.

Now that said, we knew when we accepted the job and even those transitioning over from the Q400 side, despite great seniority, knew that once they were released, part of being a normal line pilot early in an operation, we're going to have to eat some dirt from time to time. I see your complaints about the YYT splits. I do not believe that just because you or our colleagues feel their seniority deserves better that the YYT should be doled out for training instead so you can live kushy on a Calgary turn.

It will get better as the training starts to take a breather and we have an abundance of long routes.

Now you think thats bad, wait until we get the YVR red eyes with a connected Ottawa turn at 0700. Welcome to November.

Sounds like a fatigue call to crew sked.

Late night YVR, easy peasy! Mostly staring at the sunset!

But wait!!!! Just pay an extra shipping and processing and you can get the second leg home for free.

All airlines maximize pairings. If you’re unfit to fly cuz your tired, dial 1-800-CRW-SKED

[braaap Braap]

Using YYT splits vs YVR turns is trying to make this a black and white issue. Its a funny coincidence that the pairings that are apparently best suited for training also happen to be the highest credit. Talk about negative training, how is 4 hrs in cruise a good training environment. Should be slamming out sectors in the triangle as was originally discussed and a couple further jaunts to tackle the in depth topics.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Using YYT splits vs YVR turns is trying to make this a black and white issue. Its a funny coincidence that the pairings that are apparently best suited for training also happen to be the highest credit. Talk about negative training, how is 4 hrs in cruise a good training environment. Should be slamming out sectors in the triangle as was originally discussed and a couple further jaunts to tackle the in depth topics.

Because a YOW turn or even YUL has ZERO time to actually talk about even simple jet things like descent planning or arrivals. The trainees are still on the ground in yyz when you’re trying to teach them how to slow a jet for their first time.

Not to mention the countless other items required to check off the list. Driftdown/escape routes, embraer’s weird philosophy about multiple contaminants on runways. Full flap landings versus flap 5, IAS/mach number transitions, coffin corner, etc. the list is endless.

Line indoc needs time to brief and discuss stuff, and dig into the books. Also, there’s a 43 page line indoc workbook that needs to be reviewed in flight prior to line check. So no…. Short legs are not always good.

Cycles are good, to learn how to land the damn thing. But that isn’t the focus on the E2.

When you finally get on the E2, I hope your first flight is an YOW. It’ll humble you. And I’m not trying to say this rudely. The training program is intense. Lots to discuss. Needs cruise time

[CaptDukeNukem]

Also, haven’t seen YVR turns on anyone schedule. The best single days are a YWG turn, followed by a YOW turn. Which is 4 sectors and a ton of work.

Yes some high credit stuff gets given to training, but honestly, most of the E2 stuff is high credit days.

[cjp]

Using YYT splits vs YVR turns is trying to make this a black and white issue. Its a funny coincidence that the pairings that are apparently best suited for training also happen to be the highest credit. Talk about negative training, how is 4 hrs in cruise a good training environment. Should be slamming out sectors in the triangle as was originally discussed and a couple further jaunts to tackle the in depth topics.

They use a couple longer legs to bulk up the time and complete the workbook, then they bash them around in the triangle. Trainees aren't doing their whole LID training going to and from Vancouver. Little long, little short.

Even a Vancouver red eye, with the wrong candidate, could be cause for concern, cause now you have a tired instructor, who's been up teaching all night, and a tired trainee, who's falling further and further behind the aircraft. We've got some wonderful instructors on staff, but the threat level is high working on the backside of the clock, unless you do cargo and that's normal ops.

[braaap Braap]

The makeup of an "effective training" pairing can continue to be debated but it certainly isn't trainers cherry pick what they want and flight ops management/crew planning goes "There you go. That's the training bid package. Chock full of effective training!"

BC is making this seem like a 2 option solution 1) piss off the trainers/senior captains or 2) piss off the FOs but if our reassignment policy wasn't such garbage (no one wants to get taken from a good pairing to go do seat support in the sim or APS and shoulder all the extra bologna of calling in) then I can't imagine FOs being that upset.

One of my first flights on the D8 was a 0.9 YOW and I was coming from Cessnaland. The D8 training department does this on the regular, and if they can guide people who only have piston single time through successfully; surely the E2 department can do the same - especially when the candidates have the foundational jet experience already.

[braaap Braap]

Using YYT splits vs YVR turns is trying to make this a black and white issue. Its a funny coincidence that the pairings that are apparently best suited for training also happen to be the highest credit. Talk about negative training, how is 4 hrs in cruise a good training environment. Should be slamming out sectors in the triangle as was originally discussed and a couple further jaunts to tackle the in depth topics.

They use a couple longer legs to bulk up the time and complete the workbook, then they bash them around in the triangle. Trainees aren't doing their whole LID training going to and from Vancouver. Little long, little short.

Even a Vancouver red eye, with the wrong candidate, could be cause for concern, cause now you have a tired instructor, who's been up teaching all night, and a tired trainee, who's falling further and further behind the aircraft. We've got some wonderful instructors on staff, but the threat level is high working on the backside of the clock, unless you do cargo and that's normal ops.

Makes sense! I certainly agree that that is a negative training environment and a hazard as well. Moral of the story, seniority needs to be respected and if/when it can't then the person affected needs to be compensated not penalized.

[CaptDukeNukem]

The makeup of an "effective training" pairing can continue to be debated but it certainly isn't trainers cherry pick what they want and flight ops management/crew planning goes "There you go. That's the training bid package. Chock full of effective training!"

BC is making this seem like a 2 option solution 1) piss off the trainers/senior captains or 2) piss off the FOs but if our reassignment policy wasn't such garbage (no one wants to get taken from a good pairing to go do seat support in the sim or APS and shoulder all the extra bologna of calling in) then I can't imagine FOs being that upset.

One of my first flights on the D8 was a 0.9 YOW and I was coming from Cessnaland. The D8 training department does this on the regular, and if they can guide people who only have piston single time through successfully; surely the E2 department can do the same - especially when the candidates have the foundational jet experience already.

You bring up some valid points. How do you suggest trainings are built for trainees or trainers that provide a variety of flying. When I went through my e2 training, there wasn’t a lot of destinations and even though I had previous jet time, namely on a e1, it was still a steep curve.

Also, try 0.5 YOW or maybe a 0.6. Line Indoc is a lot more than just taking your sim PPC and landing the airplane. Especially as captains trainee, there’s A LOT of things that are vastly different that can’t be taught by doing 30 legs to Ottawa and back.

I’d love to hear your input as to how to construct a block utilizing training captains that generally are on the bottom half of captain seniority, and some, if not most would fall under reserve and thus no training would be achieved. There’s no fair way at the moment. Maybe you have thought of one? Cuz I personally don’t see a solution where everyone is happy.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Also, I think it’s a little bit different of a picture than you are painting. The trainers aren’t getting “the entire bid package” and cherry picking what is good.

The “training bid package” is built with a standard set of flights albeit omitting some of the negative training flights. They generally have about 8 - 9 flying days per trainee with various lengths of flights. The trainers get to “bid” on those after the fact. At least that’s what I think is happening. Maybe chaxterium can correct me.

And I can guarantee you the YOWs are still part of those pairings, just not on the first leg

[cjp]

Using YYT splits vs YVR turns is trying to make this a black and white issue. Its a funny coincidence that the pairings that are apparently best suited for training also happen to be the highest credit. Talk about negative training, how is 4 hrs in cruise a good training environment. Should be slamming out sectors in the triangle as was originally discussed and a couple further jaunts to tackle the in depth topics.

They use a couple longer legs to bulk up the time and complete the workbook, then they bash them around in the triangle. Trainees aren't doing their whole LID training going to and from Vancouver. Little long, little short.

Even a Vancouver red eye, with the wrong candidate, could be cause for concern, cause now you have a tired instructor, who's been up teaching all night, and a tired trainee, who's falling further and further behind the aircraft. We've got some wonderful instructors on staff, but the threat level is high working on the backside of the clock, unless you do cargo and that's normal ops.

Makes sense! I certainly agree that that is a negative training environment and a hazard as well. Moral of the story, seniority needs to be respected and if/when it can't then the person affected needs to be compensated not penalized.

What sort of compensation would be reasonable regarding not providing senior pilots 1 day pairings?

Where would you recommend they draw the line, as to who to compensate?

[PRM1]

The makeup of an "effective training" pairing can continue to be debated but it certainly isn't trainers cherry pick what they want and flight ops management/crew planning goes "There you go. That's the training bid package. Chock full of effective training!"

BC is making this seem like a 2 option solution 1) piss off the trainers/senior captains or 2) piss off the FOs but if our reassignment policy wasn't such garbage (no one wants to get taken from a good pairing to go do seat support in the sim or APS and shoulder all the extra bologna of calling in) then I can't imagine FOs being that upset.

One of my first flights on the D8 was a 0.9 YOW and I was coming from Cessnaland. The D8 training department does this on the regular, and if they can guide people who only have piston single time through successfully; surely the E2 department can do the same - especially when the candidates have the foundational jet experience already.

What would your suggestion be for a reassignable policy be?

[Chaxterium]

Maybe chaxterium can correct me.

Yep that's my understanding of how it works as well.