Picking up opentime

[Malfunction]

Seems like it's impossible to pick up opentime from flica. How are people so fast?

[Dronepiper]

People are running illegal bots. The union and the company are now aware, and they will be fixing this within the next 15 days. Anyone caught using a bot will have their FLICA privileges revoked, and face disciplinary action. Doesn't take much to see which accounts are continually logged in 24/7, or logging in every 1 second.

[Malfunction]

Good, I because right now it's impossible to pick anything up.

[digits_]

People are running illegal bots. The union and the company are now aware, and they will be fixing this within the next 15 days. Anyone caught using a bot will have their FLICA privileges revoked, and face disciplinary action. Doesn't take much to see which accounts are continually logged in 24/7, or logging in every 1 second.

If bots work when you don't want them to, then that's a symptom of a broken system.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Is this actually real?
Bots to pick up OT?

Why?

[safetyfirst123]

Why not have a reasonable amount of time for flights to be available? For example a two hour window unless it's a flight that's departing very soon

[CXALE]

https://flicabiddingbot.com/
https://www.websautomation.com/auto-fli ... flica-bot/

They are not in the dark web....just a few google clicks away. Not sure how they work, but apparently they do work, and its a common problem with event tickets called "scalper bots", and its one of the reasons why "captcha", was created.

[Malfunction]

$500.. yikes

[daedalusx]

This hustle culture needs to die.
How sad that pilots feels like they need to buy a bot in order to work more. As if working 16 days isn’t enough already.

[Tbayer2021]

This hustle culture needs to die.
How sad that pilots feels like they need to buy a bot in order to work more. As if working 16 days isn’t enough already.

You may not necessarily be working more and you may actually end up working less while earning more. If you're able to pick up a trip that pays you OT while simultaneously making you illegal for the following trip yet still being pay protected when scheduling removes it. It's a win in my books. I actually flew with a pilot that did just this for an entire month. Obviously many things lined up for him that month and he seemed very flexible with his schedule according to what he said, so I assume no wife and kids. He was able to get 88 hours of OT while working a regular block.

[Blackdog0301]

I hope they investigate the bot users. Imagine using bots, and then not being able to so much as drop a pairing for a couple years... Or ever? What you get is what you work. Karma.

[Tbayer2021]

I hope they investigate the bot users. Imagine using bots, and then not being able to so much as drop a pairing for a couple years... Or ever? What you get is what you work. Karma.

I'm curious as to how this will play out and hope someone from WJ updates us when a solution is found. But I wouldn't be so sure anyone currently using it will face any disciplinary action. After all, how many of our employment contracts and CBA's address the use of bot for picking up open flying? I don't think anyone currently using it is doing anything illegal. Questionable? Potentially, but I don't think anyone is breaking any rules.

[780Pilot]

I hope they investigate the bot users. Imagine using bots, and then not being able to so much as drop a pairing for a couple years... Or ever? What you get is what you work. Karma.

I'm curious as to how this will play out and hope someone from WJ updates us when a solution is found. But I wouldn't be so sure anyone currently using it will face any disciplinary action. After all, how many of our employment contracts and CBA's address the use of bot for picking up open flying? I don't think anyone currently using it is doing anything illegal. Questionable? Potentially, but I don't think anyone is breaking any rules.

Using 3rd party services and or bots is against the license agreement with Flica as the union stated in the MEC update. Perhaps its a legal issue however I think its just going to result in people losing Flica access entirely and leaving it at that.

[Tbayer2021]

I hope they investigate the bot users. Imagine using bots, and then not being able to so much as drop a pairing for a couple years... Or ever? What you get is what you work. Karma.

I'm curious as to how this will play out and hope someone from WJ updates us when a solution is found. But I wouldn't be so sure anyone currently using it will face any disciplinary action. After all, how many of our employment contracts and CBA's address the use of bot for picking up open flying? I don't think anyone currently using it is doing anything illegal. Questionable? Potentially, but I don't think anyone is breaking any rules.

Using 3rd party services and or bots is against the license agreement with Flica as the union stated in the MEC update. Perhaps its a legal issue however I think its just going to result in people losing Flica access entirely and leaving it at that.

Does a pilot have access to licensing agreement prior to using it for the first time? Does one of those "I agree" buttons have to be pressed at the bottom of a few hundred pages of legal jargon? If so, I could see some potential disciplinary action. If not, how would any pilot know it was against the licensing agreement?

[J Roc]

FLICA/CAE Licence Agreement:

“You may not sell, license, or distribute data or the use of FLICA services to third parties. Use of any unattended or automated systems to access, bid or obtain data within FLICA is specifically prohibited. Violation of these policies may result in, but is not limited to, the revocation of FLICA access.”

[Tbayer2021]

FLICA/CAE Licence Agreement:

“You may not sell, license, or distribute data or the use of FLICA services to third parties. Use of any unattended or automated systems to access, bid or obtain data within FLICA is specifically prohibited. Violation of these policies may result in, but is not limited to, the revocation of FLICA access.”

I understand that it's in the agreement, I'm not arguing that. I'm asking if each pilot has access to this prior to using it.

[daedalusx]

Does Westjet's own Flica module is set up for or have some kind of auto notification (email, sms) when somethings comes up in the open time ?

[J Roc]

FLICA/CAE Licence Agreement:

“You may not sell, license, or distribute data or the use of FLICA services to third parties. Use of any unattended or automated systems to access, bid or obtain data within FLICA is specifically prohibited. Violation of these policies may result in, but is not limited to, the revocation of FLICA access.”

I understand that it's in the agreement, I'm not arguing that. I'm asking if each pilot has access to this prior to using it.

Anyone accessing FLICA has agreed to the "END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT."

Regardless, do we need a License agreement to know that a particular practice is questionable? A well-formed conscience doesn't need a license agreement. IMO, utilizing these bots is greasy and dishonorable.

But I digress; the use of "automated systems" is a violation of FLICA terms. It's pretty clear, no matter how you since it. While you may not face discipline by WJ, you could lose access to FLICA.

[daedalusx]

FLICA/CAE Licence Agreement:

“You may not sell, license, or distribute data or the use of FLICA services to third parties. Use of any unattended or automated systems to access, bid or obtain data within FLICA is specifically prohibited. Violation of these policies may result in, but is not limited to, the revocation of FLICA access.”

I understand that it's in the agreement, I'm not arguing that. I'm asking if each pilot has access to this prior to using it.

Anyone accessing FLICA has agreed to the "END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT."

Regardless, do we need a License agreement to know that a particular practice is questionable? A well-formed conscience doesn't need a license agreement. IMO, utilizing these bots is greasy and dishonorable.

But I digress; the use of "automated systems" is a violation of FLICA terms. It's pretty clear, no matter how you since it. While you may not face discipline by WJ, you could lose access to FLICA.

Morality aside, how hard would it be to put a CAPTCHA on the open time bidding system ? Seems like it's a major issue down south as well, just search flica bots on airlinepilotforums

[Donald]

This hustle culture needs to die.
How sad that pilots feels like they need to buy a bot in order to work more. As if working 16 days isn’t enough already.

You may not necessarily be working more and you may actually end up working less while earning more. If you're able to pick up a trip that pays you OT while simultaneously making you illegal for the following trip yet still being pay protected when scheduling removes it. It's a win in my books. I actually flew with a pilot that did just this for an entire month. Obviously many things lined up for him that month and he seemed very flexible with his schedule according to what he said, so I assume no wife and kids. He was able to get 88 hours of OT while working a regular block.

I'm a little surprised that your scheduling rules allow this.

[digits_]

I understand that it's in the agreement, I'm not arguing that. I'm asking if each pilot has access to this prior to using it.

Anyone accessing FLICA has agreed to the "END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT."

Regardless, do we need a License agreement to know that a particular practice is questionable? A well-formed conscience doesn't need a license agreement. IMO, utilizing these bots is greasy and dishonorable.

But I digress; the use of "automated systems" is a violation of FLICA terms. It's pretty clear, no matter how you since it. While you may not face discipline by WJ, you could lose access to FLICA.

Morality aside, how hard would it be to put a CAPTCHA on the open time bidding system ? Seems like it's a major issue down south as well, just search flica bots on airlinepilotforums

You should start by defining what the 'issue' is exactly. The results from their actions are not something illegal. It's something you yourself likely desire for yourself (getting a better schedule/getting paid more for less work/etc). Which makes me think the issue is a mix of jealousy and frustration because they are using a more efficient tool.

You can try adding captchas or threaten bot users, but none of those really fix the underlying issue: that the system functionally allows and rewards the use of bots.

If your goal is to 'level' the playing field (it's already pretty level, everyone can use or program a bot if they like), you could add restrictions as "only allow x actions per y hours" or "once you made a successful change, you're locked out for z hours"

The ultimate solution would be that FLICA would incorporate the same functionality the bots offer right now. Then it can be controlled, and some kind of randomizer could be added to keep everybody (un)happy.

[J Roc]

I understand that it's in the agreement, I'm not arguing that. I'm asking if each pilot has access to this prior to using it.

Anyone accessing FLICA has agreed to the "END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT."

Regardless, do we need a License agreement to know that a particular practice is questionable? A well-formed conscience doesn't need a license agreement. IMO, utilizing these bots is greasy and dishonorable.

But I digress; the use of "automated systems" is a violation of FLICA terms. It's pretty clear, no matter how you since it. While you may not face discipline by WJ, you could lose access to FLICA.

Morality aside, how hard would it be to put a CAPTCHA on the open time bidding system ? Seems like it's a major issue down south as well, just search flica bots on airlinepilotforums

You're right; why let morals get in the way?

I'm sure there will be a pending solution that puts an end to this. CAPTCHA seems like a good idea. I'm just not sure if the FLICA platform will allow for that. If it's a significant issue south of the border, then I'm sure this idea has been presented already. Or maybe not.

[J Roc]

Anyone accessing FLICA has agreed to the "END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT."

Regardless, do we need a License agreement to know that a particular practice is questionable? A well-formed conscience doesn't need a license agreement. IMO, utilizing these bots is greasy and dishonorable.

But I digress; the use of "automated systems" is a violation of FLICA terms. It's pretty clear, no matter how you since it. While you may not face discipline by WJ, you could lose access to FLICA.

Morality aside, how hard would it be to put a CAPTCHA on the open time bidding system ? Seems like it's a major issue down south as well, just search flica bots on airlinepilotforums

You should start by defining what the 'issue' is exactly. The results from their actions are not something illegal. It's something you yourself likely desire for yourself (getting a better schedule/getting paid more for less work/etc). Which makes me think the issue is a mix of jealousy and frustration because they are using a more efficient tool.

You can try adding captchas or threaten bot users, but none of those really fix the underlying issue: that the system functionally allows and rewards the use of bots.

If your goal is to 'level' the playing field (it's already pretty level, everyone can use or program a bot if they like), you could add restrictions as "only allow x actions per y hours" or "once you made a successful change, you're locked out for z hours"

The ultimate solution would be that FLICA would incorporate the same functionality the bots offer right now. Then it can be controlled, and some kind of randomizer could be added to keep everybody (un)happy.

The "issue" is obvious - there are pilots in clear violation of the FLICA licensing agreement while simultaneously putting other pilots at a disadvantage for picking up OT.

The "issue" is apparent, but the solution not so much.

[Tbayer2021]

This hustle culture needs to die.
How sad that pilots feels like they need to buy a bot in order to work more. As if working 16 days isn’t enough already.

You may not necessarily be working more and you may actually end up working less while earning more. If you're able to pick up a trip that pays you OT while simultaneously making you illegal for the following trip yet still being pay protected when scheduling removes it. It's a win in my books. I actually flew with a pilot that did just this for an entire month. Obviously many things lined up for him that month and he seemed very flexible with his schedule according to what he said, so I assume no wife and kids. He was able to get 88 hours of OT while working a regular block.

I'm a little surprised that your scheduling rules allow this.

You've never had crew sched call you asking you to take a trip that would make you illegal for your next scheduled pairing? They'll worry about that next pairing later, they have fires to put out at that moment.

[Maritimer]

You may not necessarily be working more and you may actually end up working less while earning more. If you're able to pick up a trip that pays you OT while simultaneously making you illegal for the following trip yet still being pay protected when scheduling removes it. It's a win in my books. I actually flew with a pilot that did just this for an entire month. Obviously many things lined up for him that month and he seemed very flexible with his schedule according to what he said, so I assume no wife and kids. He was able to get 88 hours of OT while working a regular block.

I'm a little surprised that your scheduling rules allow this.

You've never had crew sched call you asking you to take a trip that would make you illegal for your next scheduled pairing? They'll worry about that next pairing later, they have fires to put out at that moment.

You cannot pick up pairings in Opentime that make you illegal to operate your schedule. Crew sked has the ability to do this if they are desperate enough but you cannot do it on your own. Your request to pick up the OT will simply be denied for whatever reason makes you illegal for your next pairing.