I find it interesting that so many pilots seem to think they can just arbtrarily sift through the rules and only abide by the ones that suit their purposes at the moment.
The B1900 low flying aerobatic manouver film brought out some rather interesting comments, such as pilots should be able to blow off steam because they are bored and using a public transport category airplane to perform risky flying is quite all right because flying in a professional manner gets to boring so why not use someones million dollar airplane to have some fun?
I would like to think that I have a fair grasp of low flying and performing aerobatic manouvers and that film showed a lack of professionalism and a disregard for the rules in my opinion.
By the way when performing aerobatic manouvers in a B1900 is your C of A valid?
Cat.
Following the rules to suit your mood.
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Cat Driver
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Following the rules to suit your mood.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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"
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The Cat came back! "
Someone has to keep this site focused on being an Aviator rather than just a driver.
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The Cat came back! "
Someone has to keep this site focused on being an Aviator rather than just a driver.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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fougapilot
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Cat Driver
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Exactly Fouga.
If a pilot finds her/his job boring and they want to fly unusual attitudes they should go and take aerobatic training with someone who specializes in that kind of flying and has an airplane certified for aerobatics.
It worries me when I read these guys talking about doing rolls and loops in non certified aircraft, few of them realize what happens in a roll if aft elevator is being unknowingly induced as the airplane goes through the inverted attitude, especially if they start the roll without enough nose up pitch.
A loop on the other hand generally will not come unglued quite as fast as a poorly executed roll.
And I am referring to doing it in airplanes certified for aerobatics, performing aerobatic manouvers in non certified aircraft is just plain dumb....period.
TC would be far wiser to shit can the five hours of instrument flying and replace it with five hours of recovery from unusual attitude aerobatic training.
Cat
If a pilot finds her/his job boring and they want to fly unusual attitudes they should go and take aerobatic training with someone who specializes in that kind of flying and has an airplane certified for aerobatics.
It worries me when I read these guys talking about doing rolls and loops in non certified aircraft, few of them realize what happens in a roll if aft elevator is being unknowingly induced as the airplane goes through the inverted attitude, especially if they start the roll without enough nose up pitch.
A loop on the other hand generally will not come unglued quite as fast as a poorly executed roll.
And I am referring to doing it in airplanes certified for aerobatics, performing aerobatic manouvers in non certified aircraft is just plain dumb....period.
TC would be far wiser to shit can the five hours of instrument flying and replace it with five hours of recovery from unusual attitude aerobatic training.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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fougapilot
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Cat Driver wrote:
TC would be far wiser to shit can the five hours of instrument flying and replace it with five hours of recovery from unusual attitude aerobatic training.
Cat
Granted what do I know, but I don’t totally agree with you there cat. I don’t think there are that many people stupid enough to get into such a situation in the first place.
NOW the INTERESTING question becomes what if these people were total experts? For example Cat, if someone asked you to roll and loop a B1900 at an air show would you do it? Assuming you were capable of keeping it within G limits, there were no power plant concerns and any legal paperwork for pulling such a stunt had been taken care of.
Five hours of unusal attitude training may be just enough to instill confidence without competence and may lead to even more of this dangerous type of flying.
For example , every time I read a magazine articleabout upset training, the writer invariably almost immediately after training gets caught in wake turbulence and puts their training to use. Seems to me that learning to respect the separation spacing would be more important and that the real danger in encountering wake turbulence is in taking the training... :wink:
As to the five hours of instrument, perhaps it has changed, but the private instument and the commercial instument, including the night portion seem to have been so unstructured, and that with a proper syllabus a person could actually get a good head start on an instrument rating.
In any event, the problem is the attitude of pilots who confuse luck with skill when they get away with this crap. And we all suffer when they are proven unlucky.
For example , every time I read a magazine articleabout upset training, the writer invariably almost immediately after training gets caught in wake turbulence and puts their training to use. Seems to me that learning to respect the separation spacing would be more important and that the real danger in encountering wake turbulence is in taking the training... :wink:
As to the five hours of instrument, perhaps it has changed, but the private instument and the commercial instument, including the night portion seem to have been so unstructured, and that with a proper syllabus a person could actually get a good head start on an instrument rating.
In any event, the problem is the attitude of pilots who confuse luck with skill when they get away with this crap. And we all suffer when they are proven unlucky.
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Cat Driver
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" NOW the INTERESTING question becomes what if these people were total experts? For example Cat, if someone asked you to roll and loop a B1900 at an air show would you do it? Assuming you were capable of keeping it within G limits, there were no power plant concerns and any legal paperwork for pulling such a stunt had been taken care of."
No.
Cat
No.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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North of You
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Something to think about, and to give some food to Cat's argument:
http://www8.landings.com/cgi-bin/nph-nn ... pos=198061
http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/1994/A94_13.pdf
They tried a barrel roll in a Beech 99..... At night and with insufficient altitude (during a check ride!!!)
I'm confident that the guy who pancake it had during his career, a few sessions of it in day light.
The good news, they only killed themself in the process!
http://www8.landings.com/cgi-bin/nph-nn ... pos=198061
http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/1994/A94_13.pdf
Accident Cause:
THE DELIBERATE DISREGARD FOR THE FEDERAL AVIATION REGULATIONS, GP EXPRESS PROCEDURES, AND PRUDENT CONCERN FOR SAFETY BY THE TWO PILOTS IN THEIR DECISION TO EXECUTE AN AEROBATIC MANEUVER DURING A SCHEDULED CHECK RIDE FLIGHT, AND THE FAILURE OF GP EXPRESS MANAGEMENT TO ESTABLISH AND MAINTAIN A COMMITMENT TO INSTILL PROFESSIONALISM IN THEIR PILOTS CONSISTENT WITH THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF SAFETY NECESSARY FOR AN AIRLINE OPERATING SCHEDULED PASSENGER SERVICE.
They tried a barrel roll in a Beech 99..... At night and with insufficient altitude (during a check ride!!!)
I'm confident that the guy who pancake it had during his career, a few sessions of it in day light.
The good news, they only killed themself in the process!
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North of You
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Something to think about, and to give some food to my argument:
Two weeks ago a friend of mine did some low flying in a category 705 aircraft. And nothing happened. Three months before I did the same and nothing happened. Two months ago a float equipped aircraft did the "river run" and nothing happened.
Get the point.
Two weeks ago a friend of mine did some low flying in a category 705 aircraft. And nothing happened. Three months before I did the same and nothing happened. Two months ago a float equipped aircraft did the "river run" and nothing happened.
Get the point.
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Cat Driver
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lilfssister
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I guess you shouldn't put a seat belt in your car (if I understand what you mean)North of You wrote:Something to think about, and to give some food to my argument:
Two weeks ago a friend of mine did some low flying in a category 705 aircraft. And nothing happened. Three months before I did the same and nothing happened. Two months ago a float equipped aircraft did the "river run" and nothing happened.
Get the point.
Last edited by TG on Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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North of You
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Cat Driver
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" Two weeks ago a friend of mine did some low flying in a category 705 aircraft. And nothing happened. Three months before I did the same and nothing happened. Two months ago a float equipped aircraft did the "river run" and nothing happened.
Get the point. "
Yeh, and in the last few days many thousands of people had sex with AIDS infected partners, some will die some won't.
So what is your point?
Do you see nothing wrong with the way that B1900 was flown in that video?
Cat
Get the point. "
Yeh, and in the last few days many thousands of people had sex with AIDS infected partners, some will die some won't.
So what is your point?
Do you see nothing wrong with the way that B1900 was flown in that video?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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North of You
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Cat Driver
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North of you, I get paid to fly low and have the licenses and permits to do so through having been trained to operate aircraft at very low altitude.
We do this type of flying to perform various jobs such as aerial application and fire suppression and we have guidelines as how to do this kind of flying.
Airshow flying is also another arena of flying for pay that is even more controlled and requires strict adherence to rules.
If you go back and read this thread you will find someone asked me if I would loop and roll a B1900 in an airshow display.
My answer will tell you a lot about who and what I am.
Cat
We do this type of flying to perform various jobs such as aerial application and fire suppression and we have guidelines as how to do this kind of flying.
Airshow flying is also another arena of flying for pay that is even more controlled and requires strict adherence to rules.
If you go back and read this thread you will find someone asked me if I would loop and roll a B1900 in an airshow display.
My answer will tell you a lot about who and what I am.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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" Quote:
Do you see nothing wrong with the way that B1900 was flown in that video?
Nope."
Thanks for your answer North of You, now we know what kind of pilot you are.
Cat
Do you see nothing wrong with the way that B1900 was flown in that video?
Nope."
Thanks for your answer North of You, now we know what kind of pilot you are.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
"North of you" isn't a case of complacency, because complacency comes with experiance. This isn't the voice of somebody that has been on this earth for more then a couple of decades. This is the voice of a pre-pubcent teen who feels he is undestructable. Hopefully he will grow up before we are discussing one of his accidents on this forum.TG wrote:You know what "North of you", it's exactly your kind of argument that put down this Beech 99.
Complacency.
The above is of course if he isn't just yanking everybody's chain.
Take my love
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You cannot take the sky from me
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You cannot take the sky from me
About three years ago, I found myself at about 300 ft .. running in a BC inlet; the same place I had been in similar weather as a private pilot about 30 years prior. You'd think I'd learned something about flying in all that time. I had. It was called risk management.
This time around I was trained in low flying. I had "outs" in case of complications. We had a reason to be there. We were searching for a missing airplane. The flying was demanding; the risk was manageable.
It's pretty much a given pilots are pilots because of our need to master challenges. When we think we have learned it all, we look for more challenges. It is like novice car drivers who think they know how to handle a car at speed - some find out the hard way that they don't. This is where the danger lays.
We can either take proper training to master new challenges and get our thrills professionally, or we can take unnecessary and unknown risks and endanger ourselves and our airplanes.
Yes, when I look back, I'm as guilty as most doing things which weren't exactly smart. Rules are there to keep us out of trouble. If you think you have total control of your current flying and need more excitment - there are numerous jobs, "thrill-ride" agencies and advanced flying schools with safe and legal methods of bringing the challenges back into your life.
Fly safe!
This time around I was trained in low flying. I had "outs" in case of complications. We had a reason to be there. We were searching for a missing airplane. The flying was demanding; the risk was manageable.
It's pretty much a given pilots are pilots because of our need to master challenges. When we think we have learned it all, we look for more challenges. It is like novice car drivers who think they know how to handle a car at speed - some find out the hard way that they don't. This is where the danger lays.
We can either take proper training to master new challenges and get our thrills professionally, or we can take unnecessary and unknown risks and endanger ourselves and our airplanes.
Yes, when I look back, I'm as guilty as most doing things which weren't exactly smart. Rules are there to keep us out of trouble. If you think you have total control of your current flying and need more excitment - there are numerous jobs, "thrill-ride" agencies and advanced flying schools with safe and legal methods of bringing the challenges back into your life.
Fly safe!
The probability of survival is dependent on the angle of arrival.
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sky's the limit
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Ok,
I'm not sure what on earth to make of this one... but here goes.
A) I think this a GROSS overreaction.
B) There are several comparisons from Apples to Oranges and beyond going on here.
C) If you're so concerned, why don't we start addressing real issues of invalidated insurance and CofA, like the overloading of a/c that happens all day every day all over the country?
D) You show me a picture of wreckage in a case where pilots are at night, and (obviously) too low, and on a check ride???If you're that stupid, you deserve what you get.
E) We're not talking about taking a 1900 at an airshow, we're discussing some low-flying and a roll.... During daylight hours. Was it "wrong," sure it was by the rules, the roll anyway, but are they the "idiots" you guys are making them out to be? Not in my book. If you can all sit there and tell me you've never screwed around with an aircraft, you're either full of shit, or the worst pilots out there. We all have, some of us have outgrown it, others haven't, but you expect me to sit here and read this crap... Come on. I'd place money on the fact that 1900 was in better shape after that, than 90% of the training a/c in Canada with 21,000hrs of hard landings, spins, sprial dirve trianing, and general abuse on them
I can gaurentee that planes I've landed off-strip hundreds and hundreds of times, on extremely rough and bumpy gravel bars, beaches, and mountian tops, weren't certified for it. But we all think that's really neat flying, get all nostalgic about the good old days of bush flying, I don't think a few rolls are going to hurt...
STL
Oh, and one more thing. Who lives by all the rules anyway? Of course I decide which ones are Bull Shit and which ones aren't, so do you, every time you speed, and I'm willing to bet you're at more risk speeding than you are mucking around low level in a 1900...
I'm not sure what on earth to make of this one... but here goes.
A) I think this a GROSS overreaction.
B) There are several comparisons from Apples to Oranges and beyond going on here.
C) If you're so concerned, why don't we start addressing real issues of invalidated insurance and CofA, like the overloading of a/c that happens all day every day all over the country?
D) You show me a picture of wreckage in a case where pilots are at night, and (obviously) too low, and on a check ride???If you're that stupid, you deserve what you get.
E) We're not talking about taking a 1900 at an airshow, we're discussing some low-flying and a roll.... During daylight hours. Was it "wrong," sure it was by the rules, the roll anyway, but are they the "idiots" you guys are making them out to be? Not in my book. If you can all sit there and tell me you've never screwed around with an aircraft, you're either full of shit, or the worst pilots out there. We all have, some of us have outgrown it, others haven't, but you expect me to sit here and read this crap... Come on. I'd place money on the fact that 1900 was in better shape after that, than 90% of the training a/c in Canada with 21,000hrs of hard landings, spins, sprial dirve trianing, and general abuse on them
I can gaurentee that planes I've landed off-strip hundreds and hundreds of times, on extremely rough and bumpy gravel bars, beaches, and mountian tops, weren't certified for it. But we all think that's really neat flying, get all nostalgic about the good old days of bush flying, I don't think a few rolls are going to hurt...
STL
Oh, and one more thing. Who lives by all the rules anyway? Of course I decide which ones are Bull Shit and which ones aren't, so do you, every time you speed, and I'm willing to bet you're at more risk speeding than you are mucking around low level in a 1900...
