Any plans for Socialized bidding?

[cavok9909]

Is there a possibility that Porter may go to a socialized bidding system similar to Westjet?

Although I would really like to fly for Porter, I think having the socialized bidding system is enough to pursue me in that direction instead.

Do you think that will ever happen at Porter?

[flyinhigh]

Nothing is definitive in this industry, but no would socialized bidding will not come as there is a lot of folks that benefit under seniority bidding. Why would we give that up for folks who are not here or just started.

[braaap Braap]

*removed double post*

[braaap Braap]

Ya sorry thats going to be a hard no from most of us here (except maybe the one FOAG guy that keeps talking about it). We didnt sit around for a year and a half during Covid - thinking we’d be getting our jobs back “in a few more weeks” - to start spreading love (socialized bidding) with people that only showed up here because we ordered jets.

[digits_]

Ya sorry thats going to be a hard no from most of us here (except maybe the one FOAG guy that keeps talking about it). We didnt sit around for a year and a half during Covid - thinking we’d be getting our jobs back “in a few more weeks” - to start spreading love (socialized bidding) with people that only showed up here because we ordered jets.

As opposed to all the other pilots there whose life long dream it has been to fly Dash 8s?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Ya sorry thats going to be a hard no from most of us here (except maybe the one FOAG guy that keeps talking about it). We didnt sit around for a year and a half during Covid - thinking we’d be getting our jobs back “in a few more weeks” - to start spreading love (socialized bidding) with people that only showed up here because we ordered jets.

As opposed to all the other pilots there whose life long dream it has been to fly Dash 8s?

Your signature says it all: the probability of entitlement being mentioned approaches 1

[braaap Braap]

Ya sorry thats going to be a hard no from most of us here (except maybe the one FOAG guy that keeps talking about it). We didnt sit around for a year and a half during Covid - thinking we’d be getting our jobs back “in a few more weeks” - to start spreading love (socialized bidding) with people that only showed up here because we ordered jets.

As opposed to all the other pilots there whose life long dream it has been to fly Dash 8s?

As opposed to all the other pilots here who came intending to use Porter as a stepping stone but became enamored with the lifestyle and realized they don't need or want to be chase metal.

[digits_]

Ya sorry thats going to be a hard no from most of us here (except maybe the one FOAG guy that keeps talking about it). We didnt sit around for a year and a half during Covid - thinking we’d be getting our jobs back “in a few more weeks” - to start spreading love (socialized bidding) with people that only showed up here because we ordered jets.

As opposed to all the other pilots there whose life long dream it has been to fly Dash 8s?

As opposed to all the other pilots here who came intending to use Porter as a stepping stone but became enamored with the lifestyle and realized they don't need or want to be chase metal.

I see. So the people who intended to use Porter as a stepping stone, but changed their mind, don't want to do the people who want to come to Porter to fly jets as a career any favors? You think you have the moral high ground here, but you really don't

[goingnowherefast]

Call it whatever you want. A company with seniority based scheduling rewards longevity with higher chances of the work schedule the person desires.

Nobody is out to spite someone else. They just want a decent work schedule that seniority helps them achieve. If socialized bidding is so important, go work somewhere that already has socialized bidding. Don't try and change a company that one doesn't even work at.

[8895]

As opposed to all the other pilots there whose life long dream it has been to fly Dash 8s?

As opposed to all the other pilots here who came intending to use Porter as a stepping stone but became enamored with the lifestyle and realized they don't need or want to be chase metal.

I see. So the people who intended to use Porter as a stepping stone, but changed their mind, don't want to do the people who want to come to Porter to fly jets as a career any favors? You think you have the moral high ground here, but you really don't

Idk what I just read but yeah you’re wrong dude lol if someone wants socialized bidding that badly then go to Westjet, not that complicated.

I’m under 30 and plan on staying at porter because of the lifestyle my seniority can give me. I’m giving up more money and a pension for that. Why should I give that up for others that aren’t even here yet?

You sound more entitled than an ACPA captain negotiating flat pay for everyone younger than you during a housing crisis.

[digits_]

As opposed to all the other pilots here who came intending to use Porter as a stepping stone but became enamored with the lifestyle and realized they don't need or want to be chase metal.

I see. So the people who intended to use Porter as a stepping stone, but changed their mind, don't want to do the people who want to come to Porter to fly jets as a career any favors? You think you have the moral high ground here, but you really don't

Idk what I just read but yeah you’re wrong dude lol if someone wants socialized bidding that badly then go to Westjet, not that complicated.

I’m under 30 and plan on staying at porter because of the lifestyle my seniority can give me. I’m giving up more money and a pension for that. Why should I give that up for others that aren’t even here yet?

You sound more entitled than an ACPA captain negotiating flat pay for everyone younger than you during a housing crisis.

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of a guy who joined porter 'as a stepping stone' giving other applicants flack for 'showing up only because we ordered jets'. That's all.

[JustaCanadian]

I like my schedule like I like my government. Commi socialism.

[braaap Braap]

I see. So the people who intended to use Porter as a stepping stone, but changed their mind, don't want to do the people who want to come to Porter to fly jets as a career any favors? You think you have the moral high ground here, but you really don't

Idk what I just read but yeah you’re wrong dude lol if someone wants socialized bidding that badly then go to Westjet, not that complicated.

I’m under 30 and plan on staying at porter because of the lifestyle my seniority can give me. I’m giving up more money and a pension for that. Why should I give that up for others that aren’t even here yet?

You sound more entitled than an ACPA captain negotiating flat pay for everyone younger than you during a housing crisis.

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of a guy who joined porter 'as a stepping stone' giving other applicants flack for 'showing up only because we ordered jets'. That's all.

The only reason it seems hypocritical to you is because you strawman'd my argument into oblivion. Coming to a carrier that was not a popular choice at the time and changing your career path because you ended up liking what you found is not the same as coming to the carrier with the exciting growth and fancy new metal and then posturing for a radical change because apparently the deal you're getting still isn't quite good enough for you.

Like others have said, want socialized bidding? Go to Westjet.

who want to come to Porter to fly jets as a career any favors?

You're assuming they want to stay. If they really do want to fly Porter jets as a career then they will be rewarded with the seniority based system we have. No "favors" needed.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Ya sorry thats going to be a hard no from most of us here (except maybe the one FOAG guy that keeps talking about it). We didnt sit around for a year and a half during Covid - thinking we’d be getting our jobs back “in a few more weeks” - to start spreading love (socialized bidding) with people that only showed up here because we ordered jets.

People show up because Porter decided to pay people accordingly. Lots of airlines have jets...

On a side note, although I don't work for Porter but another airline, I'd gladly give up 2 of my weekends per month so ALL my colleagues could enjoy 2 of them with their families and even though I'm super senior in my position, I still choose to work some weekends. I'd also give up every other Christmas/New Year. Seniority could be kept for upgrades, layoffs, equipment bids, etc. Time with family is important, especially for those with young kids. I should know... I suffered a lot being away from important milestones, but most importantly being away from my family when they needed me there (sick kids, etc)

[TeePeeCreeper]

Ya sorry thats going to be a hard no from most of us here (except maybe the one FOAG guy that keeps talking about it). We didnt sit around for a year and a half during Covid - thinking we’d be getting our jobs back “in a few more weeks” - to start spreading love (socialized bidding) with people that only showed up here because we ordered jets.

People show up because Porter decided to pay people accordingly. Lots of airlines have jets...

On a side note, although I don't work for Porter but another airline, I'd gladly give up 2 of my weekends per month so ALL my colleagues could enjoy 2 of them with their families and even though I'm super senior in my position, I still choose to work some weekends. I'd also give up every other Christmas/New Year. Seniority could be kept for upgrades, layoffs, equipment bids, etc. Time with family is important, especially for those with young kids. I should know... I suffered a lot being away from important milestones, but most importantly being away from my family when they needed me there (sick kids, etc)

Had to comment…

My last gig was for an airline. I hate, and I mean loathe Christmas and the holidays. Always volunteered to work the 24/25/26. Figured “Why listen to my family argue/ bicker on Christmas when I could peacefully be at work allowing someone else to be with their loved ones?!?”

Admittedly my motives are selfish!

(Maybe consider starting a thread on the topic RoAF-Mig21. You aren’t the only one thinking about their co-workers!)

TPC

[braaap Braap]

People show up because Porter decided to pay people accordingly. Lots of airlines have jets...

Yes you're right. When I said "because we ordered jets" I was referring to the position as a whole, not just the physical jets. Sorry that was obtuse

On a side note, although I don't work for Porter but another airline, I'd gladly give up 2 of my weekends per month so ALL my colleagues could enjoy 2 of them with their families and even though I'm super senior in my position, I still choose to work some weekends. I'd also give up every other Christmas/New Year. Seniority could be kept for upgrades, layoffs, equipment bids, etc. Time with family is important, especially for those with young kids. I should know... I suffered a lot being away from important milestones, but most importantly being away from my family when they needed me there (sick kids, etc)

While I mostly agree and run my schedule similar to you, it's anecdotal. For such a massive and polarizing issue I believe you either need: a supermajority vote or do it from the beginning à la Westjet.

[RoAF-Mig21]

People show up because Porter decided to pay people accordingly. Lots of airlines have jets...

Yes you're right. When I said "because we ordered jets" I was referring to the position as a whole, not just the physical jets. Sorry that was obtuse

On a side note, although I don't work for Porter but another airline, I'd gladly give up 2 of my weekends per month so ALL my colleagues could enjoy 2 of them with their families and even though I'm super senior in my position, I still choose to work some weekends. I'd also give up every other Christmas/New Year. Seniority could be kept for upgrades, layoffs, equipment bids, etc. Time with family is important, especially for those with young kids. I should know... I suffered a lot being away from important milestones, but most importantly being away from my family when they needed me there (sick kids, etc)

While I mostly agree and run my schedule similar to you, it's anecdotal. For such a massive and polarizing issue I believe you either need: a supermajority vote or do it from the beginning à la Westjet.

It's not impossible to do it, although I do agree with you that it's not easy. For a vote like that to pass, where you have a socialized schedule, you'll have to give the senior pilots an incentive. The airline doesn't care who does what flying, as long as it has manpower to staff its planes. The problem now is that airlines are not doing enought to attract people.

Take me for example. There's this airline I've been very interested to join. They have the planes and destinations that I want. The schedule is not good enough for me to give up what I have now. You can't expect someone to just "sacrifice" 5 years of their life to come join your airline for a "marginally" better offer, so the as much as I want to, I won't be going to that airline. I can't afford to "start at the bottom again", where I'm forced to get a crashpad or move to YYZ or YUL.

You can only throw so much money at someone. After a while it won't matter. Aside from pay, things that matter for many which could make life easier:
1. Base (or) confirmed commuting to/from work
2. Schedule
3. Daily credit / days worked per month
4. Benefits (medical / travel)
5. Aircraft/destinations

Look at WestJet and how amazing it is that it oppened up bases in Winnipeg. Now pilots that want to live and be there (and I know many, since I lived there before) would jump at that opportunity. Many have already. Wouldn't it be amazing to start your day of work in your hometown. Or hop on a confirmed flight from your hometown to your base, built into your schedule?

I've said this time and again. No matter how you spin it, very few pilots can afford to live in YYZ, YVR or YUL. Airlines need to offer perks for those of us that are forced to move further and further away. You want to attract experienced pilots? The old "status quo" isn't working anymore.

[8895]

People show up because Porter decided to pay people accordingly. Lots of airlines have jets...

Yes you're right. When I said "because we ordered jets" I was referring to the position as a whole, not just the physical jets. Sorry that was obtuse

On a side note, although I don't work for Porter but another airline, I'd gladly give up 2 of my weekends per month so ALL my colleagues could enjoy 2 of them with their families and even though I'm super senior in my position, I still choose to work some weekends. I'd also give up every other Christmas/New Year. Seniority could be kept for upgrades, layoffs, equipment bids, etc. Time with family is important, especially for those with young kids. I should know... I suffered a lot being away from important milestones, but most importantly being away from my family when they needed me there (sick kids, etc)

While I mostly agree and run my schedule similar to you, it's anecdotal. For such a massive and polarizing issue I believe you either need: a supermajority vote or do it from the beginning à la Westjet.

It's not impossible to do it, although I do agree with you that it's not easy. For a vote like that to pass, where you have a socialized schedule, you'll have to give the senior pilots an incentive. The airline doesn't care who does what flying, as long as it has manpower to staff its planes. The problem now is that airlines are not doing enought to attract people.

Take me for example. There's this airline I've been very interested to join. They have the planes and destinations that I want. The schedule is not good enough for me to give up what I have now. You can't expect someone to just "sacrifice" 5 years of their life to come join your airline for a "marginally" better offer, so the as much as I want to, I won't be going to that airline. I can't afford to "start at the bottom again", where I'm forced to get a crashpad or move to YYZ or YUL.

You can only throw so much money at someone. After a while it won't matter. Aside from pay, things that matter for many which could make life easier:
1. Base (or) confirmed commuting to/from work
2. Schedule
3. Daily credit / days worked per month
4. Benefits (medical / travel)
5. Aircraft/destinations

Look at WestJet and how amazing it is that it oppened up bases in Winnipeg. Now pilots that want to live and be there (and I know many, since I lived there before) would jump at that opportunity. Many have already. Wouldn't it be amazing to start your day of work in your hometown. Or hop on a confirmed flight from your hometown to your base, built into your schedule?

I've said this time and again. No matter how you spin it, very few pilots can afford to live in YYZ, YVR or YUL. Airlines need to offer perks for those of us that are forced to move further and further away. You want to attract experienced pilots? The old "status quo" isn't working anymore.

The pool of pilots in the industry are also getting younger and younger. Again, if I don’t get the benefits of seniority while getting on at a young age, then why would I not go to AC and take more money and a pension while I’m under 30?

Socialized bidding would probably cause a net loss in terms of pilot numbers at porter. Odds are unless you’re living in Halifax then you could work for either porter or westjet being based in your hometown. The only overlap in bases will be YYZ and YVR.

[TPP]

People show up because Porter decided to pay people accordingly. Lots of airlines have jets...

Yes you're right. When I said "because we ordered jets" I was referring to the position as a whole, not just the physical jets. Sorry that was obtuse

On a side note, although I don't work for Porter but another airline, I'd gladly give up 2 of my weekends per month so ALL my colleagues could enjoy 2 of them with their families and even though I'm super senior in my position, I still choose to work some weekends. I'd also give up every other Christmas/New Year. Seniority could be kept for upgrades, layoffs, equipment bids, etc. Time with family is important, especially for those with young kids. I should know... I suffered a lot being away from important milestones, but most importantly being away from my family when they needed me there (sick kids, etc)

While I mostly agree and run my schedule similar to you, it's anecdotal. For such a massive and polarizing issue I believe you either need: a supermajority vote or do it from the beginning à la Westjet.

It's not impossible to do it, although I do agree with you that it's not easy. For a vote like that to pass, where you have a socialized schedule, you'll have to give the senior pilots an incentive. The airline doesn't care who does what flying, as long as it has manpower to staff its planes. The problem now is that airlines are not doing enought to attract people.

Take me for example. There's this airline I've been very interested to join. They have the planes and destinations that I want. The schedule is not good enough for me to give up what I have now. You can't expect someone to just "sacrifice" 5 years of their life to come join your airline for a "marginally" better offer, so the as much as I want to, I won't be going to that airline. I can't afford to "start at the bottom again", where I'm forced to get a crashpad or move to YYZ or YUL.

You can only throw so much money at someone. After a while it won't matter. Aside from pay, things that matter for many which could make life easier:
1. Base (or) confirmed commuting to/from work
2. Schedule
3. Daily credit / days worked per month
4. Benefits (medical / travel)
5. Aircraft/destinations

Look at WestJet and how amazing it is that it oppened up bases in Winnipeg. Now pilots that want to live and be there (and I know many, since I lived there before) would jump at that opportunity. Many have already. Wouldn't it be amazing to start your day of work in your hometown. Or hop on a confirmed flight from your hometown to your base, built into your schedule?

I've said this time and again. No matter how you spin it, very few pilots can afford to live in YYZ, YVR or YUL. Airlines need to offer perks for those of us that are forced to move further and further away. You want to attract experienced pilots? The old "status quo" isn't working anymore.

Ground schools are full without you.

You want to wait longer and have worse seniority? Cool.

You want to stay where you are? Cool.

Either way, the people that made the risky move of jumping to Porter early on in the Jet expansion also now are benefiting from their move and I very much doubt they will give up lifestyle to someone that's on the fence ans wants their cake and to eat it too.

And the people that have been here for over a decade are not going to give up seniority to someone that needs an entire airline to bend to their needs.

Enjoy where you are.

[digits_]

Ground schools are full without you.

You want to wait longer and have worse seniority? Cool.

You want to stay where you are? Cool.

Either way, the people that made the risky move of jumping to Porter early on in the Jet expansion also now are benefiting from their move and I very much doubt they will give up lifestyle to someone that's on the fence ans wants their cake and to eat it too.

And the people that have been here for over a decade are not going to give up seniority to someone that needs an entire airline to bend to their needs.

Enjoy where you are.

The thinly veiled hostility is interesting.
The irony here being that RoAF-Mig21 contributes more to Porter's higher wages than you

You should be grateful for every pilot making higher demands and *not* applying to (or even better, applying and then turning down) your airline. That paves the path to your wage increases.

[TPP]

Ground schools are full without you.

You want to wait longer and have worse seniority? Cool.

You want to stay where you are? Cool.

Either way, the people that made the risky move of jumping to Porter early on in the Jet expansion also now are benefiting from their move and I very much doubt they will give up lifestyle to someone that's on the fence ans wants their cake and to eat it too.

And the people that have been here for over a decade are not going to give up seniority to someone that needs an entire airline to bend to their needs.

Enjoy where you are.

The thinly veiled hostility is interesting.
The irony here being that RoAF-Mig21 contributes more to Porter's higher wages than you

You should be grateful for every pilot making higher demands and *not* applying to (or even better, applying and then turning down) your airline. That paves the path to your wage increases.

The fact our ground schools on the e195 are still full every month I fail to see your point.

Once we can't fill e195 ground school I'll agree with you.

[TPP]

It's also not a threat but a reality check.

Anyone currently on property when we have roughly 30 of 75 confirmed tails is riding the seniority wave.

To give up being in the top 40 percent of all pilots on the roster to someone that thinks we should all give up weekends so they can justify their jump is living in a fantasy world.

Also digits if you don't see the irony of mig not wanting to give up 5 years of seniority at his current outfit to jump to Porter but expects all of us to give up seniority to him I recommend putting down whatever you're smoking.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Ground schools are full without you.

You want to wait longer and have worse seniority? Cool.

You want to stay where you are? Cool.

Either way, the people that made the risky move of jumping to Porter early on in the Jet expansion also now are benefiting from their move and I very much doubt they will give up lifestyle to someone that's on the fence ans wants their cake and to eat it too.

And the people that have been here for over a decade are not going to give up seniority to someone that needs an entire airline to bend to their needs.

Enjoy where you are.

It's not about bending to my needs. If airlines need pilots they must do more to attract EXPERIENCE. I do want to "have my cake and eat it too", or at least have the same salary/benefits I have where I am now. I bring many years of experience to the airline that would benefit the company. You think I'll give up 12 years to come back and start at the bottom, like a 1500 hr guy? I'm sorry, that's just not realistic. There are some thing I'm willing to give up, but I am not willing to start over. In what other industry do you have an engineer move from A to B and have to start back at the bottom, like a new graduate? That's one thing I don't like about unions. They force pilots to stay with them. It's a gamble in the end. I played my hand. Now I'm almost "all in".

In the end, the market will dicatate what happens. Those that can't keep up will end up like Lynx, JetsGo, CanJet, Royal, etc.

I believe porter could benefit from my 1000+ hrs on the E175, plus many other years of flying, including the arctic. I'm glad groundschools are full. That means pilots are getting jobs. Most excellet. I'd be very sad to see that airline fail and have so many of my industry colleagues lose their job. For the sake of Canadian pilots I honest to God wish them good luck.

As for me, my choice would be Air Transat, from an operation point of view. They fly Airbus planes to Europe and the Carribean. That's exactly what I want to do. I also can't apply there with the pay they're offering, so for now, YES I'm staying where I am. Salary is doable, the medical benefists are amazing (and sadly I have to use them now a lot for a family member) and so on. Should something more attractive come up, I'll explore it.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Ground schools are full without you.

You want to wait longer and have worse seniority? Cool.

You want to stay where you are? Cool.

Either way, the people that made the risky move of jumping to Porter early on in the Jet expansion also now are benefiting from their move and I very much doubt they will give up lifestyle to someone that's on the fence ans wants their cake and to eat it too.

And the people that have been here for over a decade are not going to give up seniority to someone that needs an entire airline to bend to their needs.

Enjoy where you are.

It's not about bending to my needs. If airlines need pilots they must do more to attract EXPERIENCE. I do want to "have my cake and eat it too", or at least have the same salary/benefits I have where I am now. I bring many years of experience to the airline that would benefit the company. You think I'll give up 12 years to come back and start at the bottom, like a 1500 hr guy? I'm sorry, that's just not realistic. There are some thing I'm willing to give up, but I am not willing to start over. In what other industry do you have an engineer move from A to B and have to start back at the bottom, like a new graduate? That's one thing I don't like about unions. They force pilots to stay with them. It's a gamble in the end. I played my hand. Now I'm almost "all in".

In the end, the market will dicatate what happens. Those that can't keep up will end up like Lynx, JetsGo, CanJet, Royal, etc.

I believe porter could benefit from my 1000+ hrs on the E175, plus many other years of flying, including the arctic. I'm glad groundschools are full. That means pilots are getting jobs. Most excellet. I'd be very sad to see that airline fail and have so many of my industry colleagues lose their job. For the sake of Canadian pilots I honest to God wish them good luck.

As for me, my choice would be Air Transat, from an operation point of view. They fly Airbus planes to Europe and the Carribean. That's exactly what I want to do. I also can't apply there with the pay they're offering, so for now, YES I'm staying where I am. Salary is doable, the medical benefists are amazing (and sadly I have to use them now a lot for a family member) and so on. Should something more attractive come up, I'll explore it.

Porter’s resume pile has plenty of EXPERIENCE. At least for the E2. I’m glad you’re happy where you are. I wasn’t, and I made the move early. And now I’m happy.

But you’re right, it sucks having to climb the ladder again. It’s all a measure of time versus money versus life. Complicated equations… none of which make any decision easier

[Donald]

I find it ironic that Porter pilots are extolling the virtue of seniority bidding, on the basis of a new hire getting the benefit of an expanding airline.

This was the same argument that Flair pilots made during their growth phase, until it suddenly ground to a halt.

Will Porter pilots still think that seniority based scheduling is great, if their expansion slows or stops? It doesn't really make sense when, for example, a pilot with 10 yrs seniority gets a vastly superior schedule over one with 8 yrs.