BAe 146 Runway Overrun

[pelmet]

No idea on the details here but with no reverse, you can't screw around. Even worse when you have forward thrust.......

C-FRJY, a British Aerospace Avro 146 Series RJ100 registered to Summit Air Ltd., was conducting
flight SUT8292 from Nanaimo Airport (CYCD), BC, to Prince Rupert Airport (CYPR), BC. After
conducting an approach for Runway 31 at CYPR, the aircraft touched down, started to slow and as
it was nearing the button of Runway 13, the aircraft started to slide sideways and exited the end of
the runway, skidding to a stop approximately 30 meters past the end, facing a NE direction. There
were no reported injuries to anyone on board and there was no visible damage to the aircraft. One
runway end light was damaged when the aircraft exited the runway. The passengers were
transported by bus to the airport terminal and the aircraft was eventually taxied to the apron under
its own power.

[Capt. Underpants]

Scuttlebutt is the runway end was essentially 100% icy but the airport didn't seem to know about it so it was not reported to the crew.

[pelmet]

Scuttlebutt is the runway end was essentially 100% icy but the airport didn't seem to know about it so it was not reported to the crew.

I see it is a 6000' runway. I wonder if it is realistic to ask for a runway condition report when you are in an aircraft like this. Might be an possible idea for prevention.

[J31]

https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/ ... d2024P0293

CADORS 2024P0293

2024-02-21
Narrative: A Summit Air British Aerospace Avro 146 (C-FRJY/SUT8292) from Nanaimo, BC (CYCD) to Prince Rupert, BC (CYPR) landed on Runway 31 and slipped. They went 40 to 50 feet over the Runway 13 threshold at 1546Z. No damage to the aircraft and no injuries. 34 passengers and 4 crew members were reported on board. Aviation Operations Centre (AVOPS), Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) and National Operations Centre (NOC) advised.

TAF CYPR 071240Z 0713/0801 VRB03KT P6SM SCT001
TEMPO 0713/0717 1SM BR BKN001
PROB40 0713/0717 1/4SM FZFG FM071700 VRB03KT P6SM BKN012
TEMPO 0717/0801 SCT012 RMK FCST BASED ON AUTO OBS. NXT
FCST BY 071900Z=

SA 07/02/2024 17:00-METAR CYPR 071700Z AUTO 01004KT 9SM OVC033 M00/M01 A2990 RMK SLP130=
SA 07/02/2024 16:00-METAR CYPR 071600Z AUTO 05006KT 9SM OVC033 M01/M01 A2989 RMK SLP124=
SA 07/02/2024 15:00-METAR CYPR 071500Z AUTO 04003KT 9SM OVC035 M01/M01 A2988 RMK SLP123=
SA 07/02/2024 14:00-METAR CYPR 071400Z AUTO 06003KT 9SM OVC031 M01/M01 A2987 RMK SLP119=
SA 07/02/2024 13:00-METAR CYPR 071300Z AUTO 04002KT 9SM OVC031 M02/M02 A2986 RMK SLP115=
SP 07/02/2024 12:46-SPECI CYPR 071246Z AUTO 01003KT 9SM SCT001 OVC031 M02/M02 A2986 RMK SLP114=
SP 07/02/2024 12:29-SPECI CYPR 071229Z AUTO 00000KT 9SM BKN001 M03/M03 A2986 RMK SLP114=
SP 07/02/2024 12:24-SPECI CYPR 071224Z AUTO 00000KT 9SM BKN003 M02/M02 A2986 RMK SLP114=
SP 07/02/2024 12:09-SPECI CYPR 071209Z AUTO 00000KT 9SM FEW003 M02/M02 A2985 RMK SLP113=
SA 07/02/2024 12:00-METAR CYPR 071200Z AUTO 00000KT 9SM CLR M02/M02 A2985 RMK SLP113=
SA 07/02/2024 11:00-METAR CYPR 071100Z AUTO 01004KT 9SM SCT031 BKN150 M02/M02 A2985 RMK SLP112=
SA 07/02/2024 10:00-METAR CYPR 071000Z AUTO 01003KT 9SM SCT030 OVC066 M01/M01 A2984 RMK SLP108=

Based on that weather forecast I would be expecting icy runway conditions and plan accordingly. I would require an RSC before landing a any medium jet on that runway. The RJ is a good short field aircraft but relies solely on wheel braking to stop.

Airline ops requires the crew to assess every landing based on expected runway conditions.

I call BS on comment that only the last part of the runway was icy. I suspect the entire runway was icy, not treated or inspected by the airport operator. I suspect the RJ100 crew did not plan for an icy runway and tried to turn off on taxiway A with a lot of speed.

[Donald]

Depending on time of day, the airport may have been not staffed.

[pelmet]

The RJ is a good short field aircraft but relies solely on wheel braking to stop.

Back in the day when I was a baggage handler, the BA 146 was an unpopular type to work on(as compared to the 737 and the big jets). They called the BA 146 the Bad Attitude. Maybe it is from the pilots point of view as well....no reverse, fumes, strange sounds when the flaps retract.

We also worked on quite a few turboprop aircraft. They were known as Piss Pots.

[gimmepars]

No damage but they had to change all 4 tires on the mains before she flew home. I was there the day after when the repairs were underway.

The turboprops stop great on icy runways, and yeah, the airport was not staffed when they arrived is what I heard.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Wow, I'm surprised they didn't think reverse thrust was a good idea for these machines.

[co-joe]

Wow, I'm surprised they didn't think reverse thrust was a good idea for these machines.

Reverse thrust on a modern jet doesn't slow you down as much as you'd think. It might mean 200' shorter landing roll in a jet that size, the Avro relies on huge brakes and cooling fans to cool the brakes for a quick turn.

[Capt. Underpants]

I call BS on comment that only the last part of the runway was icy. I suspect the entire runway was icy, not treated or inspected by the airport operator. I suspect the RJ100 crew did not plan for an icy runway and tried to turn off on taxiway A with a lot of speed.

Very likely true, but if you think about it, when are they most likely going to realize that it's icy? When they are getting close to the end of the runway or trying to turn at an excessive speed.

[Capt. Underpants]

Wow, I'm surprised they didn't think reverse thrust was a good idea for these machines.

Reversers on turbofan engines are less effective at lower speeds, and seeing as the 146 was designed to land at fairly low speeds on short fields, they weren't seen as being much of a benefit. Instead, the main wheel brakes (very large for the weight of the aircraft) combined with the lift spoilers and the airbrake in the tail were seen as a better way to ensure good stopping performance. Of course, all bets are off if you're trying to stop on an icy runway.

[Donald]

I call BS on comment that only the last part of the runway was icy. I suspect the entire runway was icy, not treated or inspected by the airport operator. I suspect the RJ100 crew did not plan for an icy runway and tried to turn off on taxiway A with a lot of speed.

Very likely true, but if you think about it, when are they most likely going to realize that it's icy? When they are getting close to the end of the runway or trying to turn at an excessive speed.

Any time you are landing on a contaminated or suspect runway (ie anything except confirmed bare and dry), proper technique is to land and immediately apply brakes to ensure you have sufficient braking for conditions. If it's bare and dry, autobrakes can be allowed to operate. Anyone that waits until they are close to the end of the runway, is asking for trouble. Remember that the ends are where rubber deposits and residual Type IV deice fluid can be found.