PWA vs CP Air merger

[Bede]

Long shot, but does anyone happen to have a copy of the seniority list integration arbitration award from the PWA vs CP Air merger? Nordair and EPA merger would be helpful too.

Thanks!

[truedude]

Long shot, but does anyone happen to have a copy of the seniority list integration arbitration award from the PWA vs CP Air merger? Nordair and EPA merger would be helpful too.

Thanks!

Those are some pretty old precedents to use in an attempt to screw sunwing pilots...

[Fanblade]

Long shot, but does anyone happen to have a copy of the seniority list integration arbitration award from the PWA vs CP Air merger? Nordair and EPA merger would be helpful too.

Thanks!

Those are some pretty old precedents to use in an attempt to screw sunwing pilots...

Actually both merger committees should have read them twice by now. The closer the two committees stick to rational and valid arguments, the better off everyone will be. Emotional irrelevant arguments just lead to poor outcomes.

Bede I assume you are looking for bathroom reading and not on the merger committee?

[truedude]

Long shot, but does anyone happen to have a copy of the seniority list integration arbitration award from the PWA vs CP Air merger? Nordair and EPA merger would be helpful too.

Thanks!

Those are some pretty old precedents to use in an attempt to screw sunwing pilots...

Actually both merger committees should have read them twice by now. The closer the two committees stick to rational and valid arguments, the better off everyone will be. Emotional irrelevant arguments just lead to poor outcomes.

Bede I assume you are looking for bathroom reading and not on the merger committee?

Westjet ALPA seems intent on going to war with Sunwing pilots, and "winning" the merger, even if it means shooting themselves in the foot during the process. They can't even be bothered to consider adopting parts of the Sunwing contract that are better than their own, because all of their resources are tied up in fighting seniority.

[cdnavater]

Those are some pretty old precedents to use in an attempt to screw sunwing pilots...

Actually both merger committees should have read them twice by now. The closer the two committees stick to rational and valid arguments, the better off everyone will be. Emotional irrelevant arguments just lead to poor outcomes.

Bede I assume you are looking for bathroom reading and not on the merger committee?

Westjet ALPA seems intent on going to war with Sunwing pilots, and "winning" the merger, even if it means shooting themselves in the foot during the process. They can't even be bothered to consider adopting parts of the Sunwing contract that are better than their own, because all of their resources are tied up in fighting seniority.

In all of history, has one group of pilots that had a huge discrepancy in upgrade times not fought for a ratio. They have precedent set with Swoop, a complete rebid and expect that to be the sticking point.

[truedude]

Actually both merger committees should have read them twice by now. The closer the two committees stick to rational and valid arguments, the better off everyone will be. Emotional irrelevant arguments just lead to poor outcomes.

Bede I assume you are looking for bathroom reading and not on the merger committee?

Westjet ALPA seems intent on going to war with Sunwing pilots, and "winning" the merger, even if it means shooting themselves in the foot during the process. They can't even be bothered to consider adopting parts of the Sunwing contract that are better than their own, because all of their resources are tied up in fighting seniority.

In all of history, has one group of pilots that had a huge discrepancy in upgrade times not fought for a ratio. They have precedent set with Swoop, a complete rebid and expect that to be the sticking point.

That precedent was set with no one fighting for SWOOP pilots aside from some pay gurentees. And those pilots were always considered WJ pilots. Unlike Swoop pilots, someone is fighting hard on behalf of Sunwing pilots. And Sunwing is a proper merger. Westjet ALPA is wasting a lot of energy fighting a battle they won't win the way they want, while ignoring other avenues to benefit everyone. Westjet ALPAs entire approach to this has been nothing short of weird.

[Fanblade]

Those are some pretty old precedents to use in an attempt to screw sunwing pilots...

Actually both merger committees should have read them twice by now. The closer the two committees stick to rational and valid arguments, the better off everyone will be. Emotional irrelevant arguments just lead to poor outcomes.

Bede I assume you are looking for bathroom reading and not on the merger committee?

Westjet ALPA seems intent on going to war with Sunwing pilots, and "winning" the merger, even if it means shooting themselves in the foot during the process. They can't even be bothered to consider adopting parts of the Sunwing contract that are better than their own, because all of their resources are tied up in fighting seniority.

Same thing happened with the Air Canada- Canadian merger. Seniority always creates issues. Unfortunately you are not both ALPA.

The policy dictates a new combined contract before even mentioning the S word.

If there are vast differences in upgrade time the arbitrator will likely go ratio. Unlike what a poster suggested above, no one will lose their position. Seniority arbitration jurisprudence does not do that.

Arbitrators don’t like one group of pilots grouped in one place on the seniority list either because it looks like winners and losers. They generally like to see a fairly smooth spattering across all seniority demographics. Another reason they often like a ratio solution.

Either way? The WJ merger committees opinion doesn’t matter. The SW merger committee opinion doesn’t matter. Only the arbitrators opinion will matter. Their decision will be based on past jurisprudence. It’s what I suggested reading past awards.

I suggest not getting too caught up in the WJ “opinion” or vis versa.

If one group gets unreasonable they have a good chance of just being ignored by the arbitrator

[rudder]

Actually both merger committees should have read them twice by now. The closer the two committees stick to rational and valid arguments, the better off everyone will be. Emotional irrelevant arguments just lead to poor outcomes.

Bede I assume you are looking for bathroom reading and not on the merger committee?

Westjet ALPA seems intent on going to war with Sunwing pilots, and "winning" the merger, even if it means shooting themselves in the foot during the process. They can't even be bothered to consider adopting parts of the Sunwing contract that are better than their own, because all of their resources are tied up in fighting seniority.

Same thing happened with the Air Canada- Canadian merger. Seniority always creates issues. Unfortunately you are not both ALPA.

The policy dictates a new combined contract before even mentioning the S word.

If there are vast differences in upgrade time the arbitrator will likely go ratio. Unlike what a poster suggested above, no one will lose their position. Seniority arbitration jurisprudence does not do that.

Arbitrators don’t like one group of pilots grouped in one place on the seniority list either because it looks like winners and losers. They generally like to see a fairly smooth spattering across all seniority demographics. Another reason they often like a ratio solution.

Either way? The WJ merger committees opinion doesn’t matter. The SW merger committee opinion doesn’t matter. Only the arbitrators opinion will matter. Their decision will be based on past jurisprudence. It’s what I suggested reading past awards.

I suggest not getting too caught up in the WJ “opinion” or vis versa.

If one group gets unreasonable they have a good chance of just being ignored by the arbitrator

All true.

And looking for precedent in the Feller Award (largely viewed as one of the most flawed single arbitrator awards ever written) won’t carry much weight in 2024.

There are many decisions issued post-2010 that encapsulate likely outcomes.

I am going to go out on a limb and predict an award flowing from an arbitration panel that provides:

- a ratioed list (possibly a variable ratio)

- no flush/no bump

- some minor time limited restrictions (i.e. WB bidding rights)

It ain’t rocket science.

Have a fight about the exact ‘ratio’ (or variable ratio). Have a fight about fences. The rest is just theatre.

[truedude]

Westjet ALPA seems intent on going to war with Sunwing pilots, and "winning" the merger, even if it means shooting themselves in the foot during the process. They can't even be bothered to consider adopting parts of the Sunwing contract that are better than their own, because all of their resources are tied up in fighting seniority.

Same thing happened with the Air Canada- Canadian merger. Seniority always creates issues. Unfortunately you are not both ALPA.

The policy dictates a new combined contract before even mentioning the S word.

If there are vast differences in upgrade time the arbitrator will likely go ratio. Unlike what a poster suggested above, no one will lose their position. Seniority arbitration jurisprudence does not do that.

Arbitrators don’t like one group of pilots grouped in one place on the seniority list either because it looks like winners and losers. They generally like to see a fairly smooth spattering across all seniority demographics. Another reason they often like a ratio solution.

Either way? The WJ merger committees opinion doesn’t matter. The SW merger committee opinion doesn’t matter. Only the arbitrators opinion will matter. Their decision will be based on past jurisprudence. It’s what I suggested reading past awards.

I suggest not getting too caught up in the WJ “opinion” or vis versa.

If one group gets unreasonable they have a good chance of just being ignored by the arbitrator

All true.

And looking for precedent in the Feller Award (largely viewed as one of the most flawed single arbitrator awards ever written) won’t carry much weight in 2024.

There are many decisions issued post-2010 that encapsulate likely outcomes.

I am going to go out on a limb and predict an award flowing from an arbitration panel that provides:

- a ratioed list (possibly a variable ratio)

- no flush/no bump

- some minor time limited restrictions (i.e. WB bidding rights)

It ain’t rocket science.

Have a fight about the exact ‘ratio’ (or variable ratio). Have a fight about fences. The rest is just theatre.

Wesjet ALPA has been doing things backwards from nearly day one, while ignoring advice from ALPA national. They wanted to settle representation prior to discussing anything else. Now they are fighting seniority with every ounce of energy they have, instead of viewing this as an opportunity to fix up the contract, as Sunwing had many quality of life things that were far better than Westjet. They seem intent on ailientating every single Sunwing pilot before they even walk in the door. And considering most Sunwing pilots weren't particularly thrilled to join team teal to begin with, it's going to be a rocky couple of years.

Like I said, the entire thing is bizzare.

[Canadaflyer46]

Full rebid might be the only fair way considering the huge disparity in upgrade times.
Can’t expect a year 10 WJ FO to fly with a year 3 Sunwing captain who gets to keep their seat. Won’t happen.

[truedude]

Full rebid might be the only fair way considering the huge disparity in upgrade times.
Can’t expect a year 10 WJ FO to fly with a year 3 Sunwing captain who gets to keep their seat. Won’t happen.

It will very likely happen. And if anyone is telling you differently, they are doing you a huge disservice.

[Donald]

If you want an example of a recently arbitrated merger, between groups with large differences in upgrade times, have a look at the result of the Canadian North-First Air seniority list.

[Fanblade]

Same thing happened with the Air Canada- Canadian merger. Seniority always creates issues. Unfortunately you are not both ALPA.

The policy dictates a new combined contract before even mentioning the S word.

If there are vast differences in upgrade time the arbitrator will likely go ratio. Unlike what a poster suggested above, no one will lose their position. Seniority arbitration jurisprudence does not do that.

Arbitrators don’t like one group of pilots grouped in one place on the seniority list either because it looks like winners and losers. They generally like to see a fairly smooth spattering across all seniority demographics. Another reason they often like a ratio solution.

Either way? The WJ merger committees opinion doesn’t matter. The SW merger committee opinion doesn’t matter. Only the arbitrators opinion will matter. Their decision will be based on past jurisprudence. It’s what I suggested reading past awards.

I suggest not getting too caught up in the WJ “opinion” or vis versa.

If one group gets unreasonable they have a good chance of just being ignored by the arbitrator

All true.

And looking for precedent in the Feller Award (largely viewed as one of the most flawed single arbitrator awards ever written) won’t carry much weight in 2024.

There are many decisions issued post-2010 that encapsulate likely outcomes.

I am going to go out on a limb and predict an award flowing from an arbitration panel that provides:

- a ratioed list (possibly a variable ratio)

- no flush/no bump

- some minor time limited restrictions (i.e. WB bidding rights)

It ain’t rocket science.

Have a fight about the exact ‘ratio’ (or variable ratio). Have a fight about fences. The rest is just theatre.

Wesjet ALPA has been doing things backwards from nearly day one, while ignoring advice from ALPA national. They wanted to settle representation prior to discussing anything else. Now they are fighting seniority with every ounce of energy they have, instead of viewing this as an opportunity to fix up the contract, as Sunwing had many quality of life things that were far better than Westjet. They seem intent on ailientating every single Sunwing pilot before they even walk in the door. And considering most Sunwing pilots weren't particularly thrilled to join team teal to begin with, it's going to be a rocky couple of years.

Like I said, the entire thing is bizzare.

Exactly how the Air Canada - Canadian merger started.

But I wouldn't call it bizzare. This has happened repeatedly over the decades. It is that experience that has led to the ALPA policy.

Ignore it at everyone's peril.

[Fanblade]

Full rebid might be the only fair way considering the huge disparity in upgrade times.
Can’t expect a year 10 WJ FO to fly with a year 3 Sunwing captain who gets to keep their seat. Won’t happen.

It will very likely happen. And if anyone is telling you differently, they are doing you a huge disservice.

That will not happen by an arbitrator. The jurisprudence says otherwise.

[Canadaflyer46]

Full rebid might be the only fair way considering the huge disparity in upgrade times.
Can’t expect a year 10 WJ FO to fly with a year 3 Sunwing captain who gets to keep their seat. Won’t happen.

It will very likely happen. And if anyone is telling you differently, they are doing you a huge disservice.

I expect both sides to make some concessions and be unhappy at the end of it. I doubt. however, that the arbitrator will side 100% behind the Sunwing pilots as you're suggesting.

[truedude]

Full rebid might be the only fair way considering the huge disparity in upgrade times.
Can’t expect a year 10 WJ FO to fly with a year 3 Sunwing captain who gets to keep their seat. Won’t happen.

It will very likely happen. And if anyone is telling you differently, they are doing you a huge disservice.

I expect both sides to make some concessions and be unhappy at the end of it. I doubt. however, that the arbitrator will side 100% behind the Sunwing pilots as you're suggesting.

I didn't say they would. But unlikely anyone will be losing their seat either.

[truedude]

All true.

And looking for precedent in the Feller Award (largely viewed as one of the most flawed single arbitrator awards ever written) won’t carry much weight in 2024.

There are many decisions issued post-2010 that encapsulate likely outcomes.

I am going to go out on a limb and predict an award flowing from an arbitration panel that provides:

- a ratioed list (possibly a variable ratio)

- no flush/no bump

- some minor time limited restrictions (i.e. WB bidding rights)

It ain’t rocket science.

Have a fight about the exact ‘ratio’ (or variable ratio). Have a fight about fences. The rest is just theatre.

Wesjet ALPA has been doing things backwards from nearly day one, while ignoring advice from ALPA national. They wanted to settle representation prior to discussing anything else. Now they are fighting seniority with every ounce of energy they have, instead of viewing this as an opportunity to fix up the contract, as Sunwing had many quality of life things that were far better than Westjet. They seem intent on ailientating every single Sunwing pilot before they even walk in the door. And considering most Sunwing pilots weren't particularly thrilled to join team teal to begin with, it's going to be a rocky couple of years.

Like I said, the entire thing is bizzare.

Exactly how the Air Canada - Canadian merger started.

But I wouldn't call it bizzare. This has happened repeatedly over the decades. It is that experience that has led to the ALPA policy.

Ignore it at everyone's peril.

I say it is bizzare in the sense that clearly the Sunwing group was never going to agree to doing things in that order. So why waste time on it.

[ant_321]

Full rebid might be the only fair way considering the huge disparity in upgrade times.
Can’t expect a year 10 WJ FO to fly with a year 3 Sunwing captain who gets to keep their seat. Won’t happen.

There are a few 3 year captains but hardly any. The vast majority of SWG Captains have been here 10+ years. I have been here 9 years and I sit at about 85% on the captains list in YYZ and the roughly 10 people directly below me were hired within a couple months of me. There seems to be a belief at Westjet that half of the captains at SWG are 25 years old with 2 years at the company. That certainly isn’t the case (I’m not saying that’s what you think)

[Canadaflyer46]

Full rebid might be the only fair way considering the huge disparity in upgrade times.
Can’t expect a year 10 WJ FO to fly with a year 3 Sunwing captain who gets to keep their seat. Won’t happen.

There are a few 3 year captains but hardly any. The vast majority of SWG Captains have been here 10+ years. I have been here 9 years and I sit at about 85% on the captains list in YYZ and the roughly 10 people directly below me were hired within a couple months of me. There seems to be a belief at Westjet that half of the captains at SWG are 25 years old with 2 years at the company. That certainly isn’t the case (I’m not saying that’s what you think)

Thank you, that is good to know and worth clarifying. That is certainly a commonly quoted belief on the line here, that the upgrade times are 3-4 years at SWG.

[ant_321]

Full rebid might be the only fair way considering the huge disparity in upgrade times.
Can’t expect a year 10 WJ FO to fly with a year 3 Sunwing captain who gets to keep their seat. Won’t happen.

There are a few 3 year captains but hardly any. The vast majority of SWG Captains have been here 10+ years. I have been here 9 years and I sit at about 85% on the captains list in YYZ and the roughly 10 people directly below me were hired within a couple months of me. There seems to be a belief at Westjet that half of the captains at SWG are 25 years old with 2 years at the company. That certainly isn’t the case (I’m not saying that’s what you think)

Thank you, that is good to know and worth clarifying. That is certainly a commonly quoted belief on the line here, that the upgrade times are 3-4 years at SWG.

That has been the case on and off in the past. I upgraded in under 3 years. I believe the most junior captain award in the last bid was about 5 YOS. However, like I said, they make up a small percentage. I don’t have the list in front of me but I would estimate over 75% of captains here have 10+ years.

I do understand senior WestJet FO’s concern. I wouldn’t be happy being a 8 year FO unable to hold a Captain seat sitting next to a 4 year Captain. Nobody knows how exactly how it will shake out. Hopefully we can come to an arrangement where everyone is unhappy as that is about as good of an indication you can get that things are done fairly in this kind of situation.