Porter vs AC

[pitottubey]

50 percent up the porter master seniority list, 28 years old YTZ based FO, 1900 flight hours.
Still most people I talk to recommend I go to AC for my career, especially older guys. Thats its simply the best place to be even if you'll be more junior.
Whats people take on this? Need advice please and thanks.

[Chaxterium]

I completely agree. I'm at Porter now on the E2. I genuinely love it. But I'm 42. If I was your age I would definitely be looking for AC.

The rapid expansion that we're going through right now is extremely exciting but it's also quite risky. No one knows if Porter's going to be here for the long-term. I certainly hope so but nothing is guaranteed. The only guarantee is that Air Canada will be here 20 years from now. From that perspective AC is probably the right call.

But morale is an issue at Air Canada. It's an issue at Porter too but I think that's more of a short term thing as all of the kinks of the expansion get worked out. But a lot of my colleagues at AC are not happy. Happiness is a big deal.

Do you have any friends at AC? If you do reach out to them and see how they feel. It's a big decision. Get as much info as you can.

[fish4life]

AC, the reason the older guys are suggesting it is they have seen the ups and downs of the industry and companies shut down and start up all while AC has been a constant.

AC is not immune to downturns by any means but by being a 100+ widebody international airline it will always survive in one form or another.

[cjp]

A lot of over promising and undelivering at time of hiring at AC these days to keep people coming through the doors. It's quite comedic actually.

I just don't get the mentality of living for retirement alone, it's just so strange. Perhaps that makes the shortcomings and conditions tolerable; do your time and you'll come out slightly sbove everybody else.

I've always been happy having growth, happiness and money now, while I control my saving for retirement, but not having to rely on my partner or anyone else to cover rent or other costs of living. I'm not at 180,000k a year from 65 onwards (of which y'all realize you still pay tax on that right?), but I'm not far off.

Ah well, good luck fellas.

[pitottubey]

I completely agree. I'm at Porter now on the E2. I genuinely love it. But I'm 42. If I was your age I would definitely be looking for AC.

The rapid expansion that we're going through right now is extremely exciting but it's also quite risky. No one knows if Porter's going to be here for the long-term. I certainly hope so but nothing is guaranteed. The only guarantee is that Air Canada will be here 20 years from now. From that perspective AC is probably the right call.

But morale is an issue at Air Canada. It's an issue at Porter too but I think that's more of a short term thing as all of the kinks of the expansion get worked out. But a lot of my colleagues at AC are not happy. Happiness is a big deal.

Do you have any friends at AC? If you do reach out to them and see how they feel. It's a big decision. Get as much info as you can.

I appreciate the honesty. And ya lots of the porter pilots aren't happy too but I'm guessing its mostly the dash capts. E2 flying seems great.

I have friends that have gone to AC but too recently to provide much input. I'm worried about being on the backside of this huge hiring wave but AC should still expand a little over the years which should help.

[MD11]

I'm under 30 and feel the pressure of applying to AC as well. That being said, QOL is what I'm after and it sounds like at AC that's almost guaranteed NOT to happen. Hopefully the new contract sorts things out, but even with major changes being junior will most likely mean it would still take years to obtain a good lifestyle. My other issue with AC is the bases offered. Canada doesn't revolve around YYZ, YUL and YVR only and if you force pilots to live in those cities you better at least be paying wages that can allow you to afford a good life in those locations. It's simply beyond me why you can't have pilots living in YQB, YOW, YYC, YEG and have them position to work on your own metal. Yes it would add to some complexity to crew scheduling, but it's doable and would really show a lot to pilot groups morale. The point is not to just "get by" on a minimum salary but be respected in your profession from the start and be able to plan a future for yourself and your family. Most pilots sacrificed a lot to gain their experience to get to AC only to be severely underpaid and underpromised work/life balance. That being said, is AC a bad choice? No, if you can make it work and accept the conditions then go for it. For myself not being from the 3 big cities, no chance I'm going to change the life I built to move to a foreign city and start all over.

For me, Porter seems like a promising bet right now and are offering secondary bases soon along with fairly quick upgrades in the future. No the fleet variety isn't that exciting, but at the end of the day I would prefer to fly as a little as possible, be home based and actually enjoy travelling on my passes on my GDO's. The idea of flying a 787, 777 or A330 sound enticing, but you sacrifice everything else in your life to go do that.

As for AC hiring, I doubt it will slow down. They have A321XLR's on order, adding second hand A32X's/A330's and are severely short on current metal. Remember that the way AC functions is to maximize everything for the lowest cost which means they may give the illusion that hiring is slowing down, but as soon as they get 5-10 aircraft delivered they will scramble to hire pilots to fill seats...

[pitottubey]

I'm under 30 and feel the pressure of applying to AC as well. That being said, QOL is what I'm after and it sounds like at AC that's almost guaranteed NOT to happen. Hopefully the new contract sorts things out, but even with major changes being junior will most likely mean it would still take years to obtain a good lifestyle. My other issue with AC is the bases offered. Canada doesn't revolve around YYZ, YUL and YVR only and if you force pilots to live in those cities you better at least be paying wages that can allow you to afford a good life in those locations. It's simply beyond me why you can't have pilots living in YQB, YOW, YYC, YEG and have them position to work on your own metal. Yes it would add to some complexity to crew scheduling, but it's doable and would really show a lot to pilot groups morale. The point is not to just "get by" on a minimum salary but be respected in your profession from the start and be able to plan a future for yourself and your family. Most pilots sacrificed a lot to gain their experience to get to AC only to be severely underpaid and underpromised work/life balance. That being said, is AC a bad choice? No, if you can make it work and accept the conditions then go for it. For myself not being from the 3 big cities, no chance I'm going to change the life I built to move to a foreign city and start all over.

For me, Porter seems like a promising bet right now and are offering secondary bases soon along with fairly quick upgrades in the future. No the fleet variety isn't that exciting, but at the end of the day I would prefer to fly as a little as possible, be home based and actually enjoy travelling on my passes on my GDO's. The idea of flying a 787, 777 or A330 sound enticing, but you sacrifice everything else in your life to go do that.

As for AC hiring, I doubt it will slow down. They have A321XLR's on order, adding second hand A32X's/A330's and are severely short on current metal. Remember that the way AC functions is to maximize everything for the lowest cost which means they may give the illusion that hiring is slowing down, but as soon as they get 5-10 aircraft delivered they will scramble to hire pilots to fill seats...

Fair enough staying especially if you're Ottawa based. Pearson is the closest airport to me though. The new contract better be a lot better if I do go...

[rudder]

50 percent up the porter master seniority list, 28 years old YTZ based FO, 1900 flight hours.
Still most people I talk to recommend I go to AC for my career, especially older guys. Thats its simply the best place to be even if you'll be more junior.
Whats people take on this? Need advice please and thanks.

This is like saying should I go to Delta or stay at Skywest (even though the pay at Skywest is pretty good). At age 28, it would seem a no-brainer.

Job security, equipment options, paid benefits, pension. All favour AC. And a new contract will see significantly increased pay rates (WJ+).

You will be a small cog in a large machine. But your career earnings and retirement benefits will eclipse almost every other option out there (in Canada).

[pitottubey]

50 percent up the porter master seniority list, 28 years old YTZ based FO, 1900 flight hours.
Still most people I talk to recommend I go to AC for my career, especially older guys. Thats its simply the best place to be even if you'll be more junior.
Whats people take on this? Need advice please and thanks.

This is like saying should I go to Delta or stay at Skywest (even though the pay at Skywest is pretty good). At age 28, it would seem a no-brainer.

Job security, equipment options, paid benefits, pension. All favour AC. And a new contract will see significantly increased pay rates (WJ+).

You will be a small cog in a large machine. But your career earnings and retirement benefits will eclipse almost every other option out there (in Canada).

All true. What about lifestyle? Like getting weekends off or Christmas, vacation time ect, amount of days off per month, ect.

[CaptDukeNukem]

50 percent up the porter master seniority list, 28 years old YTZ based FO, 1900 flight hours.
Still most people I talk to recommend I go to AC for my career, especially older guys. Thats its simply the best place to be even if you'll be more junior.
Whats people take on this? Need advice please and thanks.

This is like saying should I go to Delta or stay at Skywest (even though the pay at Skywest is pretty good). At age 28, it would seem a no-brainer.

Job security, equipment options, paid benefits, pension. All favour AC. And a new contract will see significantly increased pay rates (WJ+).

You will be a small cog in a large machine. But your career earnings and retirement benefits will eclipse almost every other option out there (in Canada).

All true. What about lifestyle? Like getting weekends off or Christmas, vacation time ect, amount of days off per month, ect.

If QOL is what's important for you, then in my opinion, keep the seniority number at Porter. 30 tails on the e2, 70 more to come. The amount of pilots below you will be tremendous. However, this comes with end of career sacrifices. Porter might not be great on the Dash side, and it isn't perfect either on the E2 side. During my career, I've often found that the grass isn't always greener. AC will offer you a very promising career with many $$$ to be made. And since you're young enough, you'll have time to climb the ladder there. Personally, my career path was mostly defined by the necessities of life. If I were you facing such a decision, I like to rely on a good ol' coin toss. Pick AC heads, Porter tail, if you don't like the outcome, you know where you gotta be.

[8895]

I’m in a similar position as well, if I want AC I’ll have 2000TT by early next year, currently on the E2. A large part of my decision is going to come from the new contract AC gets and if Porter can compensate me enough to convince me that the QOL my seniority here affords me is worth giving up more money, a pension, and industry best job security.

Considering how many pilots Porter’s gonna need to attract and retain to execute on this growth plan I certainly hope the E2 pay scale pays more than the AC 220, if they’re serious about convincing all these young pilots to give up the longtime security AC offers in comparison they better make it worth it.

[vanislepilot]

50 percent up the porter master seniority list, 28 years old YTZ based FO, 1900 flight hours.
Still most people I talk to recommend I go to AC for my career, especially older guys. Thats its simply the best place to be even if you'll be more junior.
Whats people take on this? Need advice please and thanks.

This is like saying should I go to Delta or stay at Skywest (even though the pay at Skywest is pretty good). At age 28, it would seem a no-brainer.

Job security, equipment options, paid benefits, pension. All favour AC. And a new contract will see significantly increased pay rates (WJ+).

You will be a small cog in a large machine. But your career earnings and retirement benefits will eclipse almost every other option out there (in Canada).

All true. What about lifestyle? Like getting weekends off or Christmas, vacation time ect, amount of days off per month, ect.

I had a friend hired end of July and had xmas off on the A220.

He shows me his skeds and if he goes for reserve he can have every weekend off

Also, what can’t you celebrate xmas on the 23rd? Is that REALLY that big of a deal? Again I am a different person than you (i could care less about xmas) but I have celebrated many occasions plus or minus a few days. It makes NO difference (except new years, you can’t always win)

As for weekends, idk i’m over it, crowds and prices seem to skyrocket , again I am younger so I don’t care but you are also young bro!

[goingnowherefast]

Weekends don't matter very much until one has school age kids. Kids get weekends off, and if the pilot parent wants to spend time with their offspring, they'll want weekends off too.

[Chaxterium]

Also, what can’t you celebrate xmas on the 23rd? Is that REALLY that big of a deal?

When you have kids yes, it is that big of a deal.

[ant_321]

Also, what can’t you celebrate xmas on the 23rd? Is that REALLY that big of a deal?

When you have kids yes, it is that big of a deal.

I disagree. I grew up with a dad who often worked the 25th and it was never a big deal. What kid doesn’t want Xmas to come a few days early? Those kind of things are only as big a deal as the parents make them. The weekends do become an issue though, especially if they play sports. Another 15 years and I’ll go back to working on the weekends and having weekdays off to avoid the hordes of people everywhere.

[Me262]

I’m in a similar position as well, if I want AC I’ll have 2000TT by early next year, currently on the E2. A large part of my decision is going to come from the new contract AC gets and if Porter can compensate me enough to convince me that the QOL my seniority here affords me is worth giving up more money, a pension, and industry best job security.

Considering how many pilots Porter’s gonna need to attract and retain to execute on this growth plan I certainly hope the E2 pay scale pays more than the AC 220, if they’re serious about convincing all these young pilots to give up the longtime security AC offers in comparison they better make it worth it.

How did you have the 1500TT to get hired and already flying the E2, but it takes you another year to hit 2000TT? Do you fly less than 300hrs a year?

[PRM1]

I’m in a similar position as well, if I want AC I’ll have 2000TT by early next year, currently on the E2. A large part of my decision is going to come from the new contract AC gets and if Porter can compensate me enough to convince me that the QOL my seniority here affords me is worth giving up more money, a pension, and industry best job security.

Considering how many pilots Porter’s gonna need to attract and retain to execute on this growth plan I certainly hope the E2 pay scale pays more than the AC 220, if they’re serious about convincing all these young pilots to give up the longtime security AC offers in comparison they better make it worth it.

How did you have the 1500TT to get hired and already flying the E2, but it takes you another year to hit 2000TT? Do you fly less than 300hrs a year?

I wish I had their sense of entitlement at 2000 TT.

[goingnowherefast]

I dunno if it's entitlement, or just a youngin with career options many of us couldn't even dream of 10 years ago.

Wasn't all that long ago AC needed 705 command time and 5000 hrs to be competitive in the hiring process.

[braaap Braap]

No no it was shit for PRM1 back in the days so it should be shit for these guys too. Aspirations are demonstrations of entitlement and have no place here in the great white north

[8895]

I’m in a similar position as well, if I want AC I’ll have 2000TT by early next year, currently on the E2. A large part of my decision is going to come from the new contract AC gets and if Porter can compensate me enough to convince me that the QOL my seniority here affords me is worth giving up more money, a pension, and industry best job security.

Considering how many pilots Porter’s gonna need to attract and retain to execute on this growth plan I certainly hope the E2 pay scale pays more than the AC 220, if they’re serious about convincing all these young pilots to give up the longtime security AC offers in comparison they better make it worth it.

How did you have the 1500TT to get hired and already flying the E2, but it takes you another year to hit 2000TT? Do you fly less than 300hrs a year?

I started at porter with less than 1500TT

[pitottubey]

I’m in a similar position as well, if I want AC I’ll have 2000TT by early next year, currently on the E2. A large part of my decision is going to come from the new contract AC gets and if Porter can compensate me enough to convince me that the QOL my seniority here affords me is worth giving up more money, a pension, and industry best job security.

Considering how many pilots Porter’s gonna need to attract and retain to execute on this growth plan I certainly hope the E2 pay scale pays more than the AC 220, if they’re serious about convincing all these young pilots to give up the longtime security AC offers in comparison they better make it worth it.

How did you have the 1500TT to get hired and already flying the E2, but it takes you another year to hit 2000TT? Do you fly less than 300hrs a year?

I wish I had their sense of entitlement at 2000 TT.

Take your outdated attitude elsewhere. Pilots have nothing but gains to make up today, not continuing to endlessly pay our dues even further. It's people like you who brought our profession so low.
How dare pilots have options and leverage today

[8895]

How did you have the 1500TT to get hired and already flying the E2, but it takes you another year to hit 2000TT? Do you fly less than 300hrs a year?

I wish I had their sense of entitlement at 2000 TT.

Take your outdated attitude elsewhere. Pilots have nothing but gains to make up today, not continuing to endlessly pay our dues even further. It's people like you who brought our profession so low.
How dare pilots have options and leverage today

It really is quite entitled of me to think I should be able to afford a one bedroom rental in the city I’m employed in as an airline pilot. I should really just pull up my bootstraps while the older generations pay off their third house.

[pitottubey]

I wish I had their sense of entitlement at 2000 TT.

Take your outdated attitude elsewhere. Pilots have nothing but gains to make up today, not continuing to endlessly pay our dues even further. It's people like you who brought our profession so low.
How dare pilots have options and leverage today

It really is quite entitled of me to think I should be able to afford a one bedroom rental in the city I’m employed in as an airline pilot. I should really just pull up my bootstraps while the older generations pay off their third house.

You sound pretty entitled to me! Aside from that thread drift, I really do appreciate the 2 cents, career advice or opinions from the actual mentors on here. Thank you!

[cdnavater]

How did you have the 1500TT to get hired and already flying the E2, but it takes you another year to hit 2000TT? Do you fly less than 300hrs a year?

I wish I had their sense of entitlement at 2000 TT.

Take your outdated attitude elsewhere. Pilots have nothing but gains to make up today, not continuing to endlessly pay our dues even further. It's people like you who brought our profession so low.
How dare pilots have options and leverage today

I love how you younger pilots like to blame us older pilots for your lot in life, remember, you accepted the job and the salary was not a secret. Blame us if it makes you feel better but YOU brought the profession low by accepting, we protected our pay and gave you a choice, you chose the path of low wages.
If you all said no and didn’t try and justify your choice, seniority blah blah blah, those wages would have gone up ages ago, just saying.

[8895]

I wish I had their sense of entitlement at 2000 TT.

Take your outdated attitude elsewhere. Pilots have nothing but gains to make up today, not continuing to endlessly pay our dues even further. It's people like you who brought our profession so low.
How dare pilots have options and leverage today

I love how you younger pilots like to blame us older pilots for your lot in life, remember, you accepted the job and the salary was not a secret. Blame us if it makes you feel better but YOU brought the profession low by accepting, we protected our pay and gave you a choice, you chose the path of low wages.
If you all said no and didn’t try and justify your choice, seniority blah blah blah, those wages would have gone up ages ago, just saying.

The boomers running ACPA are the reason our wages are so low lol also again, when an airline pilot needs roommates to afford a roof over their head, somethings clearly wrong.

You sound like the annoying boomer captain in the jazz discord chats