Comair CRJ crashes in Kentucky

Sulako · Post by **Sulako** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:00 am

It's all over the US news channels at the moment....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,210650,00.html

Commuter Plane With 50 Aboard Crashes Near Lexington, Ky.
Sunday, August 27, 2006

LEXINGTON, Ky. — A Comair flight carrying 50 people crashed a mile from Lexington's airport Sunday morning, the Federal Aviation Administration said.

FAA spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen said local authorities have indicated there are significant fatalities. A team from the National Transportation Safety Board is en route to the crash scene, she said.

Comair Flight 5191, a CRJ-100 regional jet with 47 passengers and three crew members, crashed at 6:07 a.m. shortly after taking off, Bergen said.

Comair is a subsidiary of Delta Air Lines based in the Cincinnati suburb of Erlanger, Ky.

Sulako · Post by **Sulako** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:20 am

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,210650,00.html

All 50 on Plane That Crashed in Kentucky Feared Killed
Sunday, August 27, 2006

LEXINGTON, Ky. — A Comair flight carrying 50 people crashed a mile from Lexington's airport Sunday morning shortly after takeoff, the Federal Aviation Administration said. At least one person survived the crash.

Comair Flight 5191, a CRJ-100 regional jet with 47 passengers and three crew members, crashed at 6:07 a.m. after taking off for Atlanta, said Kathleen Bergen, an FAA spokeswoman.

There was no immediate word on what caused the crash. The plane was largely intact afterward, but there was a fire following the impact, police said at a news conference.

The University of Kentucky hospital is treating one survivor, who is in critical condition, spokesman Jay Blanton said. No other survivors have been brought to the hospital, he said.

Investigators from the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board were en route to the scene, FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said.

Comair is a subsidiary of Delta Air Lines based in the Cincinnati suburb of Erlanger, Ky.

The Bombardier Canadair CRJ-100 is a twin-engine aircraft that can carry up to 50 passengers, according to Delta's Web site.

The crash marks the end of what has been called the "safest period in aviation history." There has not been a major crash since Nov. 12, 2001, when American Airlines Flight 587 plunged into a residential neighborhood in Queens, N.Y., killing 265 people, including five on the ground.

On Jan. 8, 2003, an Air Midwest commuter plane crashed on takeoff at Charlotte/Douglas International Airport, killing all 21 aboard.

Last December, a seaplane operated by Chalk's Ocean Airways crashed off Miami Beach when its right wing separated from the fuselage shortly after takeoff, killing the 18 passengers and two crew members. That plane, a Grumman G-73 Turbo Mallard, was built in 1947 and modified significantly in 1979.

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:14 am

The crash marks the end of what has been called the "safest period in aviation history." There has not been a major crash since Nov. 12, 2001, when American Airlines Flight 587 plunged into a residential neighborhood in Queens, N.Y., killing 265 people, including five on the ground.

No major crashes in the US, maybe, but I can think of far too many "minor" crashes in North America, and major crashes elsewhere recently for me to think of the last few years as the safest.

Any idea on the cause?

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:18 am

Now, grimey

You should know better than that. There WILL be lots of speculation, but why invite it?

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:31 am

So long as it's reasonable, why not? Trash talking the airline or the pilots serves nothing, but if there are events which suggest the cause, why not point them out? There may be nothing that's obvious about the cause, and we won't know until the NTSB report comes out, but I think most people here are mature enough to tell the difference between reasoned speculation and horseshit, and I don't see there being anything wrong with the first one.

wingtip · Post by **wingtip** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:40 am

grimey wrote:Any idea on the cause?

Yes, the aircraft failed to remain airborne long enough to reach its destination...

Any other questions?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:50 am

" Yes, the aircraft failed to remain airborne long enough to reach its destination...

Any other questions?
_________________ "

Things like eye witnesses watching the take off, or maybe was it on fire before it crashed ,,,weather conditions such as convective micro bursts may have been possible are reasonable issues to discuss.....

...or should we just meekly wonder for a year or two until the final report is released.

CD · Post by CD » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:52 am

For speculation as to cause, here's the site to always check first...

Plane crashes at Blue Grass Airport

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:00 am

Reports are that they took off using runway 26 which is only 3500'.

AirDisaster.Com Accident Database
» AirDisaster.Com » Accident Database » Accident Synopsis » 08272006

Date of Accident: 27 August 2006
Airline: Comair
Aircraft: Bombardier Canadair CRJ-100ER
Location: Lexington, Kentucky, USA
Registration: N431CA
Flight Number: 5191
Fatalities: 49:50
Engine Manufacturer: General Electric
Engine Model: CF-34-3A1
Year of Delivery: 2001

Accident Description: The aircraft crashed on takeoff from Lexington's Blue Grass Airport on a scheduled passenger flight to Atlanta. Television reports and overhead photos from the scene have raised serious speculation that the flight crew mistakenly attempted takeoff from runway 26 (3500ft) instead of the intended runway 22 (7003ft). The aircraft crashed at 6:07am local time, approximately ½ mile off the end of runway 26, and broke into flames in a farm field.

wingtip · Post by **wingtip** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:21 am

Cat Driver wrote: " Yes, the aircraft failed to remain airborne long enough to reach its destination...

Any other questions?
_________________ "

Things like eye witnesses watching the take off, or maybe was it on fire before it crashed ,,,weather conditions such as convective micro bursts may have been possible are reasonable issues to discuss.....

...or should we just meekly wonder for a year or two until the final report is released.

Sure, lets listen to everything Miles O'Brien has to say on the issue as he and his crack team at CNN are on it!

Eye witnesses are very unreliable as a source of info and at the time of my post, none had come forth. You can speculate all you like Cat. Can you learn from speculation? Maybe, maybe not. You can from the findings though..

Let me help those theorists...

It could have been Load error, computational error, crew error with mishandling, over rotating, under rotating, incorrect trim setting, incorrect flap setting, failure to monitor acceleration, failure to monitor vertical speed, failure to monitor airspeed, weather, mechanical etc etc...

Not trying to be an ass, just pointing out that speculation at this time is rediculous..

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:39 am

wingtip wrote: It could have been Load error, computational error, crew error with mishandling, over rotating, under rotating, incorrect trim setting, incorrect flap setting, failure to monitor acceleration, failure to monitor vertical speed, failure to monitor airspeed, weather, mechanical etc etc...

Not trying to be an ass, just pointing out that speculation at this time is rediculous..

Or maybe someone was monitoring the ATC frequency, and heard a mayday call indicating the problem (like the Morningstar caravan, where the pilot stated she had severe icing, IIRC), or maybe, as Lost posted, the crash site lines up really nicely with the short runway.

In alot of cases, no, you can't tell what happened at all from the speculation on the news. In some cases, like this one, you can get a pretty good idea of what probably happened.

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:51 am

For anyone who may have friends at the airline:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home

Comair identified the crew members as Captain Jeffrey Clay, First Officer James Polehinke and flight attendant Kelly Heyer. Clay joined Comair in November 1999, Polehinke in March 2002 and Heyer in July 2004.

http://us.cnn.com/2006/US/08/27/plane.crash/index.html

A Blue Grass Airport official said rescuers were able to extricate a crew member -- the lone survivor -- identified as first officer James M. Polehinke, who has worked with the carrier since 2002.

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:51 am

It has been established that they were cleared for takeoff from runway 22 (7000'),
but there is physical evidence that they departed from 26 (3500').

IflyaSewerpipe · Post by **IflyaSewerpipe** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:35 am

In any case,

My condolences to all involved in this unfortunate event.

sprucemonkey · Post by **sprucemonkey** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:55 pm

looks like an easy mistake to make....

WHIPPER · Post by **WHIPPER** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:28 pm

First I would like to express my condolences for all the families affected by this tragedy.

sprucemonkey wrote:looks like an easy mistake to make....

Maybe for a private pilot on his/her first solo cross country, but two professional pilots?
From what I've heard the one survivor was the first officer. If it is true that they took off on 26 he will probably take a lot of heat for this one.

Caracrane · Post by **Caracrane** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:47 pm

What about the distance for a fail just prior to V1? Never flew a RJ but... some RJ guys there?

hind sight · Post by **hind sight** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:24 pm

A news report said that the crew came into Lexington the night before at a little after midnight and departing just after 6:00.
The dreaded stand up duty day.

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:27 pm

What about the distance for a fail just prior to V1? Never flew a RJ but... some RJ guys there?

Over at PPRUNE, the figures being thrown about are in the 5-6000 ft range for this a/c.

Maybe for a private pilot on his/her first solo cross country, but two professional pilots?

True, but we/they are only human, and people do make mistakes occasionally. We probably don't know all of the circumstances surrounding this yet, and it may well be that there are further factors affecting their decision-making.

DA900 · Post by **DA900** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:27 pm

WHIPPER wrote:

Maybe for a private pilot on his/her first solo cross country, but two professional pilots?
From what I've heard the one survivor was the first officer. If it is true that they took off on 26 he will probably take a lot of heat for this one.

Well there are other circumstances to consider as well. Professional pilots or not was it there first time there? How was the sunlight at 6:00am. It could be dark there still.

I know flying out of Victoria can be confusing at the best of times. I have flown there enough that you would think it wouldn't be. Ever the best of us still make and will make mistakes.

Just something to think about.

WHIPPER · Post by **WHIPPER** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:48 pm

hind sight wrote:A news report said that the crew came into Lexington the night before at a little after midnight and departing just after 6:00.
The dreaded stand up duty day.

Do you have a source for that? Everywhere I read about it said that they had a legal rest period, "far beyond that required by the FAA." Even the President of Comair was saying that at the press conference. Bad way to start off the investigation if we soon found out he was lying.

WHIPPER · Post by **WHIPPER** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:54 pm

True, but we/they are only human, and people do make mistakes occasionally. We probably don't know all of the circumstances surrounding this yet, and it may well be that there are further factors affecting their decision-making.

Very true. Its a shame that a seemingly minor error, (which 99 times out of a hundred would have been noticed by capt/fo/atc but unfortunately wasn't this time), resulted in the loss of 49 lives. Now we all know why airlines fly 2 crew and, in my opinion, these guys earn every penny they make.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:58 pm

Bad things happen to good pilots all of the time, I wish it were not so.

My condolences to all involved.

-istp

talkinghead · Post by **talkinghead** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:14 pm

http://flightaware.com/

Sunday Aug-27-2006 12:00PM EDT
A Comair-operated Bombardier CRJ100 (d/b/a Delta Connection) departing Lexington, Kentucky crashed less than a mile beyond the runway at 6:07am EDT this morning. 49 people died. The first officer is the sole survivor and he is listed in critical condition at the University of Kentucky hospital.

Background
Blue Grass Airport (Lexington, KY) is equipped with two runways. 04/22 is 7000ft x 150ft and 08/26 is 3500ft x 75ft. The aircraft was cleared for takeoff from runway 22 which was acknowledged only by a "roger" from the pilots. The aircaft proceeded to take off from runway 26, which is half the length of 22 and would have left the aircraft with insufficient room for takeoff.

FlightAware has no flight tracking information for the flight, COM191, besides the flight plan.

The aircraft tail number (confirmed by Comar) is N431CA (aircraft registration information: N431CA). The aircraft was delivered to Comar on January 30, 2001. It has 12,048 cycles and 14,536.2 hours. Last overnight maintenance check was conducted at Lexington on August 26th.

Airline Pilot Warned Of Confusing Runway Layout
FlightAware has discovered that in 1993, the pilot of an air carrier filed a report with the NASA ASRS (aviation safety reporting system) after nearly departing from runway 26 when instructed to depart from runway 22 at Lexington.

The report reads, "Aircraft was cleared for immediate takeoff (traffic was inside the marker) on runway 22 at KLEX. We taxied onto the runway and told tower we needed a moment to check our departure routing with our weather radar (storms were in the area, raining at the airport). We realized our heading was not currect for our assigned runway and at that moment, tower called us to cancel the takeoff clearance because we were lined up on runway 26. We taxied clear and then held short of runway 22 for landing traffic. We took off on runway 22 and proceeded without incident. Possible contributing factors were poor visibbility and weather (rain. Confusing runway intersection and tower's request for an immediate takeoff. Suggest possible warning page (similar to Houston Hobby) to clarify multiple runway ends."

The pilot's reference to Houston Hobby's disclaimer is available on FlightAware's airport information page for Houston Hobby (KHOU). The remark reads:

"DUE TO COMPLEX RY CONFIGURATION; WHEN TAXIING TO THRS 12L & 12R AND 17 CHECK COMPASS HEADING BEFORE DEPARTING."

No similar information is available for Lexington airport.

Air Traffic Control Terminology
When given a taxi instruction, aircraft are implicitly cleared across any runway between their current position and the taxi destination. Accordingly, an aircraft being instructed to taxi to runway 22 at KLEX from the terminal could be instructed, "taxi to runway two two" without being told, "cross runway two six."

Links
Lexington (KLEX) airport diagram
Lexington (KLEX) airport information
Lexington (KLEX) arrival/departure boards

Contact
Relatives can call +1-800-801-0088 for more information.

hind sight · Post by **hind sight** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:26 pm

WHIPPER wrote:
hind sight wrote:A news report said that the crew came into Lexington the night before at a little after midnight and departing just after 6:00.
The dreaded stand up duty day.
Do you have a source for that? Everywhere I read about it said that they had a legal rest period, "far beyond that required by the FAA." Even the President of Comair was saying that at the press conference. Bad way to start off the investigation if we soon found out he was lying.

I think I heard it on the press conference and I believe it was CNN I was watching.
As far as their legal rest period, stand up's are legal so they are covering the bases by saying that.
I have heard it a second time tonight.