Canadian vs US Airline Executive Attitudes

[goingnowherefast]

Why can't we have this attitude from airline executive leadership in Canada?

United Airlines:
“We promised our world-class pilots the industry-leading contract they deserve, and we’re pleased to have reached an agreement with ALPA on it,” United Airlines said in a statement. “The four-year agreement, once ratified, will deliver a meaningful pay raise and quality of life improvements for our pilots while putting the airline on track to achieve the incredible potential of our United Next strategy.”

Delta:
“I want to thank both negotiating teams and the National Mediation Board for their efforts in reaching this agreement that recognizes our pilots’ contributions to Delta,” said Delta Chief of Operations John Laughter. “From the beginning of the negotiations process, we set out to deliver the industry’s best pilot contract to the industry’s best pilots, one that keeps us as a top destination for U.S. aviation careers, and this contract is a reflection of that unwavering commitment.”

American Airlines:
“Today is a really great day for our pilots and airline,” said American’s CEO Robert Isom. “This agreement will help American immediately expand our pilot training capacity to support under-utilized aircraft and future flying and provide our pilots with more opportunities to progress in their careers. We’re grateful for the company and APA negotiating teams who worked diligently and collaboratively to reach an agreement we’re proud of and one our pilots deserve. And, I would like to personally thank and congratulate Capt. Ed Sicher, APA President, for his superb leadership throughout the negotiating process.”

As compared to Canada

Encore contract:
"The tentative agreement we have reached today provides an offer that is fair and sustainable, and better aligns with key priorities as identified by ALPA, while firmly adhering to the financial parameters that set a critical foundation in the original agreement,” said Diederik Pen, President of WestJet Airlines and Group Chief Operating Officer. “While we are pleased to have reached an agreement, we recognize the impact and the uncertainty a lockout notice has on our guests and our people. While our number one priority remains fulfilling our commitment to our guests, through affordable air service, we cannot compromise on what is reasonable and protects the future employment for everyone across the WestJet Group; I am confident our agreement achieves this.”

WJA contract:
“We appreciate we were able to arrive at a deal, however, recognize the impact on our guests and we sincerely appreciate their patience during this time,” WestJet Group chief executive officer Alexis von Hoensbroech.

WJA mechanics:
“The damage to Canadians and our airline is massive, a swift resolution was necessary; we take no victory laps on this outcome but will sleep better tonight knowing further harm has been prevented,” said Diederik Pen, President of WestJet Airlines and Group Chief Operating Officer. “We will see no further labour action coming out of this dispute, as both parties agree to arbitrate the contract in the case of a failed ratification.”

We have yet to see what happens with Air Canada.

There's a glaring contrast that the US airlines appreciate and value their pilots. WJ is happy to get a deal that's as cheap as possible with only lip service to the customers about the disruptions that they caused and can continue offering a cheap service to their disrupted customers.

[RippleRock]

US airlines have been making incremental gains for years. US carries value their pilots as an important part of the "successful airline" equasion.

Canadian pilots have been "chained to the bottom" for decades. The pay and working conditions gap between US pilots and Canadian pilots has become colossal. It didn't used to be that way, so low pilot pay and onerous working conditions certainly aren't a "necessary component" of an airlines success.

However, Canadian operators, AC in particular, are very reluctant to give up the "money printing machine" that we have allowed ourselves to become. They are used to pilots "capitulating" and giving in to Management demands for pennies, while giving up massive concessions. It's an "addiction" not easily broken. Canadian executives are having what could be called a "tantrum" over Canadian pilots finally waking up and demanding their worth. Like work = like pay. Management is having a really tough time justifying paying rates at 50% of our direct competitors across the border. Really tough to justify, especially in the glare of recent massive profits and 233% raises for Management, despite limited fleet capacity.

But they are --not-- giving up, and neither are we.

Their "hissy fit" will continue until the Board of Directors sees the "writing on the wall", and has had enough of the "caustic and abrasive" approach. Neither side is backing down from the looming fight.

September/October will be very ugly for Big Red unless the "abrasive Management team" they have chosen to deploy, changes their tune fast. The very same "bully management stick" the BoD have chosen to use on pilots for two decades will be turned back on them within 58 days.

I have ZERO sympathy. We are --done-- being taken advantage of. Two decades is ENOUGH.

Bring it on. We're ready.

[goingnowherefast]

Why do the US airlines see pilots as part of the path to success where Canadian pilots are to be used and abused? The US pilots got pretty big raises without nasty words from their management.

Canadian pilots just aren't given the same appreciation as American pilots by executive leadership for some reason.

Does the Canadian aviation business climate attract a special kind of asshole into senior leadership roles somehow? Are US aviation business leaders more friendly to labour somehow?

[braaap Braap]

Why do the US airlines see pilots as part of the path to success where Canadian pilots are to be used and abused? The US pilots got pretty big raises without nasty words from their management.

Canadian pilots just aren't given the same appreciation as American pilots by executive leadership for some reason.

Does the Canadian aviation business climate attract a special kind of asshole into senior leadership roles somehow? Are US aviation business leaders more friendly to labour somehow?

I think it has to do with actual widespread competitive forces. Each of the big three carriers have like 16,000 pilots and they have another 5-6 carrier nipping at their heals.

Here we have historically had a duopoly and even then Air Canada was treated as a the pinnacle with pilots clambering over each other to get there. Managements got lucky with some inappropriate government intervention and now we're trying to regain our courage to take control and not cave to this toxic management rhetoric. Fortunately the WJ AMEs just gave us a great recent example to look towards.

[flying4dollars]

US airlines have been making incremental gains for years. US carries value their pilots as an important part of the "successful airline" equasion.

Canadian pilots have been "chained to the bottom" for decades. The pay and working conditions gap between US pilots and Canadian pilots has become colossal. It didn't used to be that way, so low pilot pay and onerous working conditions certainly aren't a "necessary component" of an airlines success.

However, Canadian operators, AC in particular, are very reluctant to give up the "money printing machine" that we have allowed ourselves to become. They are used to pilots "capitulating" and giving in to Management demands for pennies, while giving up massive concessions. It's an "addiction" not easily broken. Canadian executives are having what could be called a "tantrum" over Canadian pilots finally waking up and demanding their worth. Like work = like pay. Management is having a really tough time justifying paying rates at 50% of our direct competitors across the border. Really tough to justify, especially in the glare of recent massive profits and 233% raises for Management, despite limited fleet capacity.

But they are --not-- giving up, and neither are we.

Their "hissy fit" will continue until the Board of Directors sees the "writing on the wall", and has had enough of the "caustic and abrasive" approach. Neither side is backing down from the looming fight.

September/October will be very ugly for Big Red unless the "abrasive Management team" they have chosen to deploy, changes their tune fast. The very same "bully management stick" the BoD have chosen to use on pilots for two decades will be turned back on them within 58 days.

I have ZERO sympathy. We are --done-- being taken advantage of. Two decades is ENOUGH.

Bring it on. We're ready.

Here here!

[CaptDukeNukem]

US airlines have been making incremental gains for years. US carries value their pilots as an important part of the "successful airline" equasion.

Canadian pilots have been "chained to the bottom" for decades. The pay and working conditions gap between US pilots and Canadian pilots has become colossal. It didn't used to be that way, so low pilot pay and onerous working conditions certainly aren't a "necessary component" of an airlines success.

However, Canadian operators, AC in particular, are very reluctant to give up the "money printing machine" that we have allowed ourselves to become. They are used to pilots "capitulating" and giving in to Management demands for pennies, while giving up massive concessions. It's an "addiction" not easily broken. Canadian executives are having what could be called a "tantrum" over Canadian pilots finally waking up and demanding their worth. Like work = like pay. Management is having a really tough time justifying paying rates at 50% of our direct competitors across the border. Really tough to justify, especially in the glare of recent massive profits and 233% raises for Management, despite limited fleet capacity.

But they are --not-- giving up, and neither are we.

Their "hissy fit" will continue until the Board of Directors sees the "writing on the wall", and has had enough of the "caustic and abrasive" approach. Neither side is backing down from the looming fight.

September/October will be very ugly for Big Red unless the "abrasive Management team" they have chosen to deploy, changes their tune fast. The very same "bully management stick" the BoD have chosen to use on pilots for two decades will be turned back on them within 58 days.

I have ZERO sympathy. We are --done-- being taken advantage of. Two decades is ENOUGH.

Bring it on. We're ready.

Here here!

I don’t mean to antagonize but I believe you meant “hear hear” which is a form of verbal appreciation.

The only way, us…. Canadian pilots… can come to the levels of our US counterparts is like ripplerock said: being united and sticking up for each other. There is a wicked opportunity sitting at the feet of AC pilots, which I believe we can all agree; tend to set the bar for the rest of the country. There is a battle looming, and it’s nice to see people coming together, I.e, WestJet AMEs…

All of this helps us.

We are currently in an environment that FINALLY allows us to have a voice.

[Realitychex]

If you can figure out a way that Cdn domiciled airlines can generate virtually all their revenue in hard currency dollars vs 65 cent dollarettes, I think you’d find management would be far more willing to pay US type salaries.

A very significant portion of operating costs are denominated in US$.

It’s a fundamental structural disadvantage that all airlines in Canada have to deal with, together with never ending demand sucking taxes and fees.

[cdnavater]

If you can figure out a way that Cdn domiciled airlines can generate virtually all their revenue in hard currency dollars vs 65 cent dollarettes, I think you’d find management would be far more willing to pay US type salaries.

A very significant portion of operating costs are denominated in US$.

It’s a fundamental structural disadvantage that all airlines in Canada have to deal with, together with never ending demand sucking taxes and fees.

Due respect, I don’t believe anyone is asking for par wages after exchange to their US counterparts, they are saying if a 737 Capatain pays 350 US, it should pay 350 Canadian up here.
And, who cares how they make their money, they are making record profits, share the wealth!

[CaptDukeNukem]

If you can figure out a way that Cdn domiciled airlines can generate virtually all their revenue in hard currency dollars vs 65 cent dollarettes, I think you’d find management would be far more willing to pay US type salaries.

A very significant portion of operating costs are denominated in US$.

It’s a fundamental structural disadvantage that all airlines in Canada have to deal with, together with never ending demand sucking taxes and fees.

There was a time recently where the Cdn was higher than the USD. I don’t think anyone is asking for the conversion rate. Dollar for dollar. It’s simple enough

[goingnowherefast]

Do the AC execs pay themselves in USD or converted currency? Or are they paid 1:1?

I'm curious, I genuinely don't know. That should be the standard though. What's good enough for the big wigs is good enough for the pilots.

[digits_]

USA: 1500 hour rule leading to a shortage of legally qualified pilots
Canada: No 1500 hour rule and thus no shortage of legally qualified pilots. Shortage is based on meeting company or customer contract requirements, and thus are more flexible.

15 years ago the US pilots were in a worse spot than Canada, job market and lifestyle wise. The 1500 hour rule was the main factor that changed this.

[RippleRock]

.

[RippleRock]

USA: 1500 hour rule leading to a shortage of legally qualified pilots
Canada: No 1500 hour rule and thus no shortage of legally qualified pilots. Shortage is based on meeting company or customer contract requirements, and thus are more flexible.

15 years ago the US pilots were in a worse spot than Canada, job market and lifestyle wise. The 1500 hour rule was the main factor that changed this.

I don't buy the "pilot shortage argument" at the US Majors as support for their current wage levels. It certainly has at the Regional level though.

However, there has never been a pilot shortage at the Major/Legacy level. Ever.

Their resume piles have always been full. The proof is in their compensation packages. Not one US Major is offering a "signing bonus" or significantly higher wages in the first 5 years than any other competitor to attract talent. They don't because they don't need to. There are plenty of applicants, so many in fact that some carriers have a 4-year degree minimum before they even look at you. That's changed now, but only a bit.

Wages south of the border at the Major/Legacy level have been driven by 2 factors, neither of which has anything to to with attracting talent or supply.

One, the pilots south of the border aren't taking any shit. Their unions are powerful and internal unity issues (ie. VO during negotiations) are --not-- tolerated. They act in "lockstep" with the guidance from their union, subtle or overt. Period. The pilots who "don't understand" are taken aside and "educated" on the merits of unity.

Two, American management sees properly compensated pilots as an asset, not a drain on the bottom line. They know the pilots control the trust levers, and manage the efficiency of the operation any time the aircraft is self powered. A happy pilot is an efficient pilot, and an effective pilot. They aren't a constantly attacking and trying to "strip mine" pilot WACONs. The bottom line is, they just respect pilots more south of the border.

They haven't gotten that up here yet. So we have to make them. It's like dealing with a bully.....sometimes you fight for respect.

[citabriaguy]

It seems Canadian execs are willing to pay exactly what Canadian pilots are willing to work for. If you collect the guys and gals who were willing to take less today, they might just take less tomorrow.