Canadian pilots from Middle Eastern descent

[Pilot_adam]

Hey there

I have wanted to post this for a while but I was concerned about the impact of the answers …anyhow I figured I will have to hear it anyways.

For those who are CFIs and chief pilots…
Would you hire a Canadian pilot from Arabic descent and a Muslim too??!!
I am concerned about the fact that I will be facing trouble finding jobs when I am done my flight training because of my background. I would like to hear from you guys and get some advice.

I personally have not seen a pilot from a Middle Eastern descent working in a charter or a Canadian airline in Canada yet.

What about the professional pilots flying in Canada, do you know of any?? Do you feel unsafe or uncomfortable flying with one??

I would like get familiar with the situation in Canada and be prepared for the worst; I am a hard worker and have always proved myself to employers.

No racial comments PLEASE

Cheers
Adam

[prang one]

In my short time flying in Canada I have worked with 3 pilots from the Middle East.

To a man they have all progressed at an above average rate down the path of bigger and better machines. ie all flying Boeing or Airbus products in a post 9/11 environment.

A pilots skill and personality should over ride all else

Maybe not when going through airport screening but thats a whole topic in its self no matter what country you were born in

[Walker]

If the CP or CFI of an operation is that shallow to not want to hire you then you probably don’t want to work for them anyway…

[bizjet_mania]

If the CP or CFI of an operation is that shallow to not want to hire you then you probably don’t want to work for them anyway…

Well said!

[wingtip]

It is a tougher sell but persevenance will pay off. I have flown with a couple and will not say their ability was any better or worse than anyone else.

There are often fingerprint requirements at US entry points but one of the guys was from Bagdad so the Yanks are a little nervous.

Would I hire one? Honestly?? If you were equally qualified, impressed me, I thought you would represent the company well then I would put up with minor inconveniences and hire you. If you didn't really impress me, I'd hire a non Arab every time. Sorry, Just being honest. Nothing bigoted, just realistic. Why invite inconvenience?

Would you make me nervous? Not in the least. I may make you nervous though

All that being said, this too shall pass so don't let todays headlines disuade you.

[Walker]

Why invite inconvenience?

Because its the law son;

[wingtip]

Why invite inconvenience?

Because its the law son;

OK (knowledgable young fellow)!! How many middle eastern pilots are there in Canada as a percentage?? .1%? 1? 10?

I guess around 1, so if I hire 100 guys and I have not hired 1, then come after me spewing the laws. Until then (young man), you have no case!

I have flying shirts older than you so stick the "son" (nonsense) up your liberal pansy (sleeve)! Oh, and have a nice day

edited by request

[Sasktel]

"Middle Eastern descend"

Now that's funny!!

[Dust Devil]

Why invite inconvenience?

Because its the law son;

OK ASSWIPE!! How many middle eastern pilots are there in Canada as a percentage?? .1%? 1? 10?

I guess around 1, so if I hire 100 guys and I have not hired 1, then come after me spewing the laws. Until then JUNIOR, you have no case!

I have flying shirts older than you so stick the "son" crap up your liberal pansy ass! Oh, and have a nice day

LOL that was good

[Walker]

Why invite inconvenience?

Because its the law son;

OK ASSWIPE!! How many middle eastern pilots are there in Canada as a percentage?? .1%? 1? 10?

I guess around 1, so if I hire 100 guys and I have not hired 1, then come after me spewing the laws. Until then JUNIOR, you have no case!

I have flying shirts older than you so stick the "son" crap up your liberal pansy ass! Oh, and have a nice day

LOL, WOW I Really honestly DIDNT think that would work! WOOHOO!!! Looks like I got a big one boys! Who’s buying?!!!!!!!

[scm]

I don't think it will be a problem. Sure you may get a second look on occasion but big deal.

[Pachanga]

LOL, WOW I Really honestly DIDNT think that would work! WOOHOO!!! Looks like I got a big one boys! Who’s buying?!!!!!!!

YO MOMMA'S BUYING!

[wingtip]

[quote="Walker]

LOL, WOW I Really honestly DIDNT think that would work! WOOHOO!!! Looks like I got a big one boys! Who’s buying?!!!!!!!

OK, you were trolling now.... the convenient way to bow out of an (discussion of considerable magnatude).

Get a life cupcake!

edited for consistency of language[/i]

[Walker]

lol actually the “son” remark was a troll, (remember to "Please Donate" thread) however my original statement I did mean, to not hire someone based on race would be a violation of their charter rights, not that I suspect anyone would be willing to go to the human rights commissioner over it but they would have the capacity too…

Here you go; just for you wingtip;

[wingtip]

lol actually the “son” remark was a troll, (remember to "Please Donate" thread) however my original statement I did mean, to not hire someone based on race would be a violation of their charter rights, not that I suspect anyone would be willing to go to the human rights commissioner over it but they would have the capacity too…

I would be very surprised if anyone didn't know the laws and rights relative to race in this country. They are manipulated by both sides frequently.

Maybe it is just your youth once again rearing its head and you don't realize that not everybody obides by every law. Not every law is meant to be abided or enforced and the laws and their enforcement or lack thereof isn't fair to some parties.

As I said, if the statistics don't support your argument, you don't have an argument.

Pleasure as always walker... Now, don't you have a country to go save...?

Take a cupcake, I have plenty.

[Walker]

I wasn’t aware that I was arguing anything of statistical significance. I thought I was merely stating that if an operator was making hiring decisions based on race they would be opening themselves up to unnecessary legal risk. I am quite aware that not all laws are abided by, that was not the point. The point was a very simple one liner “it is illegal.” Seeing as this comes under the auspices of constitutional law and the mechanism to activate the process is simply a complaint, I really don’t see how enforcement would be an issue; A party does not get hired, they become irate and decide to engage the mechanism, it becomes found that a hiring officer has stated on a private message board “Why invite inconvenience?” A justice may interoperate this as a racially motivated decision and nastiness ensues… I am not aware of any cases relating to race and the aviation industry in Canada however I would not be surprised if they exist (im not really in the mood to go through the CRF case law.) Nevertheless if the current trend in international relations continues unabated I suspect cases such as these may just start to pop up in the system, however that is just my unsolicited opinion.

Don’t worry I’m sure Ill become a cold an bitter shrew eventually, however until then Ill have my elders to debate and poke fun with.
Just remember if you get too irate at my naivety just think, in 30 years Ill be in your shoes having some smartass snot disrupting my karma aswell.

Cheerio!

[Jercules]

PilotAdam

There are a few Arabic pilots in the CF. As you may imagine, being able to speak Arabic, or any second or third language is a sizeable asset to us. Not sure if military flying interests you but the CF may be worth a look.

Jerc

[Pilot_adam]

"Middle Eastern descend"

Now that's funny!!

Not too funny actually. But my word editor ran an array on the whole text and changed the word descent to descend automatically and i did not notice it until now (Thank you)...It was unintentional so whatever..!!!

Cheers
Adam

[wingtip]

I wasn’t aware that I was arguing anything of statistical significance.

You made the comment that it was illegal. From experience, I can tell you that statistics are the deciding factor when the courts get involved. Unless someone made a rcial comment, what else could you base your argument on?

I thought I was merely stating that if an operator was making hiring decisions based on race they would be opening themselves up to unnecessary legal risk.

Yes, but difficult to prove without statistics.

A party does not get hired, they become irate and decide to engage the mechanism, it becomes found that a hiring officer has stated on a private message board “Why invite inconvenience?” A justice may interoperate this as a racially motivated decision and nastiness ensues…

Again, good luck proving that one in court being that the "hiring officer" posted comments on a public computer anonymously.

I am not aware of any cases relating to race and the aviation industry in Canada however I would not be surprised if they exist (im not really in the mood to go through the CRF case law.) Nevertheless if the current trend in international relations continues unabated I suspect cases such as these may just start to pop up in the system, however that is just my unsolicited opinion.

Your opinion may be correct and through experience I can tell you, there have been many discrimination cases fought in the aviation industry for a number of reasons that include age, sex, and race.

Don’t worry I’m sure Ill become a cold an bitter shrew eventually,

firstly, you should learn the definition and not make judgements by what you read on a public forum. I hope you don't but as I have said before, if you go through life with blinders on, you can remain in your utopian little world. If you open your eyes, and use your head, you will see things for what they are. Some people call it "reality".

however until then Ill have my elders to debate and poke fun with.

When I was your age, some of the guys took your approach and others decided they could actually learn from those with a life of personal and professional experience. I think by your posts that you are the latter...go ahead though, spend your life proving me wrong!

Just remember if you get too irate at my naivety just think, in 30 years Ill be in your shoes having some smartass snot disrupting my karma aswell.

Maybe...maybe not..there are no guarantees you will make it this far or what will affect you along the way..unfortunate, but another reality.

Walker, in my original post, I gave an honest answer to an honest question. I knew someone (the liberal likes such as you) would take exception and cry "not fair". The original post indicated the writer thought the odds may be against him/her based on their race and current political climate. I am sure the individual will succeed, but also that there may be hurdles to overcome. I see it every day when entering the US. They do , in practice racially profile. I frequent an FBO in YYZ that has 3 Iraqi's working in the customer support area and all have been cited as security threats by visiting Americans. They have even threatened to relocate to another FBO if one of them went near their aircraft.

The world is not a fair place and that is a reality. To simply state "it is illegal" is laughable because discrimination takes place every day and the law is ineffective in eforcement.

Now, you can either learn from experience or not. Your choice. The question was asked, I answered. That is all.

Cheers to you as well!

[Pilot_adam]

PilotAdam

There are a few Arabic pilots in the CF. As you may imagine, being able to speak Arabic, or any second or third language is a sizeable asset to us. Not sure if military flying interests you but the CF may be worth a look.

Jerc

This is a dream and I thought I had no chance reaching it, so thank you Jerculas for letting me know that I actually have a chance in CF; I actually speak 3 languages English, French and Arabic, know some German too!!!...
I will be working on a degree in the next 2 years (Political science) so we will see..!!!
Thanks to Walker,wingtip and every one else who replied...Sorry dudes did not mean to turn this into a fight but thanks for your honesty anyways...

Cheers
Adam

[wingtip]

Adam, with your language ability, you would undeniably be an asset and comodity that any international employer or government would hire.

Good luck to you, no apologies, we all have opinions.

[Walker]

Indeed Adam, Id hazard a guess that one with command of a multitude of languages would be a far more valuable asset to a firm than the average worker. Political Science is a very interesting field to study I’ve enjoyed it immensely where are you planning to study (McGill/UofT /Queens?)


Wingtip; Im sorry if I have offended you, or if I have at any point made you feel disrespected. If I did then all I can say is it was not my intent. I specifically avoid making personal attacks on individuals for their beliefs, and generally speaking I find slinging insults at people yields nothing positive, so I avoid it. Now I agree you are correct, I am too inexperienced in life to fully comprehend all of the gravity of what goes on in the world; however does this mean that I should not hold an opinion until I fully understand everything? If you were in my shoes would you suggest I remain silent and not try and engage in an intellectual discussion to ascertain more knowledge from my peers and elders? Maybe I misrepresented what I meant by “debate” in my last post. There could be a few interpretations of the word, the Purpose (in my mind) is to share and learn from the experience of others. I draw a distinction between this and say “an argument,” which is simply (once again in my mind) more “He said, She said “ in which there really is no purpose other than to “win” and there are no deeper intentions of broadening ones mind. However as I stated above I may have used the wrong terminology, so I apologize, it was NEVER my intent to make you feel that I did not value the experience and opinions of others. If one goes through life only learning from their own trial’s and tribulation’s I don’t imagine one would get very far. I engage in discussion because I would very much like to learn and hear other ideas; perhaps some would advocate that it would be more prudent to simply be seen but not heard (read: do not disagree/agree publicly with anything,) however I have found in life you can learn much more by engaging people. Conceivably this is an inherently flawed method of attaining more potent opinions as it has the prospect of agitating the other party… What do you think? Did I step over the line?


My comments in relation to the legal impact of this topic had nothing to do with fairness, but rather were made to share what little bit of life experience I can offer this forum (perhaps others don’t want to hear it in which case feel free to ignore my posts.) From what I have learned as a student of law (which may well be incorrect) this type of legal action is not something that a crown prosecutor would have to initiate. If a complaint of discrimination was made, the system (is theoretically) supposed to go into swing. Now the comments you made about statistics determining when courts become involved are very interesting and speaks to the more modern “Economic Analysis of Law” which seems to be creeping up the pipe; Its an interesting insight you’ve made! I’d heard of this sort of attitude being applied to criminal proceedings on the part of the crown, but had yet to hear of it being applied under constitutional law. Just for intellectualisms sake you wouldn’t happen to know what mechanism is being used to limit these cases would you? I bet it would make a killer topic for a research paper.


As I stated before, the comment about the legality of discrimination was not an attempt to cry “foul” per say, but rather to remind people of the legal risk they are undertaking if making ANY policy decision made on racial backgrounds (regardless if it is a realistic policy or not there are possible legal consequences.) If I were a director or a shareholder of a firm in this industry I would want all hiring officers to be made fully aware of the legal implications of a discrimination suite. Some of the UBER leftwing nut jobs that I’ve met who are just coming out into the system would be more than happy to make a career name for them selves in the legal or political world by eviscerating a firm in an industry traditionally dominated by testosterone fueled caucasian males. These people are the new born vultures of the legal community and simply for the sake of continued civility I would be inclined to not have my investments open for attack for something which is so simple to shield against.

*NOTE: Remember that traditional “Republican (capital R)” values were centered around the rights of the individual (Read: gun ownership, constitutional protections from persecution etc…) Over time however (at least in the US) the notion of Pax-Americana has seemed to dominate the values of the Republic Ilk into those values that more closely resemble that of empire building, and thus are inherently NON Republican. Leftist tendencies seem to have come to fill in the gap left by these voids, which brings an interesting dilemma for someone who feels more connection to the REAL “Traditional” values of a rightwing republican policy machine. For this point I have to admit I am a bit upset that you classify me as Liberal, as I don’t think that fully fits what my political values dictate, I did vote for the Liberal party in the last election however that was a strategic vote (I trust neither the conservatives nor the liberals, but at least the Liberals are a “devil I know.”) Alas my plan backfired and I ended up with something far worse in my riding NDP; but if you can guess what party im a member of I will be thoroughly impressed.


Wingtip I consider myself less of an idealist and more of a disenchanted idealist become realist. There are far too many dreamers here on the “Left Coast” who do nothing more than spout off the party line of anti globalization, anti imperilzation etc… Most of these individuals seem to have given up their capacity for free thought; thus resulting in a mob of people yelling and screaming with little to nothing actually directing them. It seems to me that many are in it for the sake of needing something to believe in, rather than actually believing in a cause or culture. I think that its important to make the distinction that not all people who have an opinion contrary to the current political scene have come to that opinion by the same path. And as such lumping all individuals with such opinions under the category of “Liberal Pansy Ass” may not be the most accurate of descriptors.
I appreciate your input, and I think your response to the original question was beautiful in its honesty and simplicity. A flaw I may have made was posting the response I did under a topic in the “general” category as this discussion has half moved into something that would be far better left in the “political” grouping. I will make a point to be more discerning in which categories I post a retort that may trigger a tumultuous spiral of responses.

I had not heard of things happening in FBOs like you mentioned, however I suppose its not that far fetched. It will be interesting to see what develops over the coming months and years concerning the law, public safety, and western public opinion. How would the legal system handle a class action suit against CATSA etc… Perhaps the notwithstanding clause would be engaged; but what happens if Americans engage a similar suite against their state/media/private companies? There is no similar mechanism in the US, and it’s such a litigious society down south I’d be almost scared to watch the outcome.
Regardless interesting times;
In short, I enjoy the exchange of ideas wingtip, I hope you do as well, and I hope I have not given you the wrong idea as to my motivations.

-Until next time, Adieu

[Cat Driver]

Walker:

I would like to buy one of these for home protection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6bKbqSd ... h=shotguns

This is a handy little item that if needed my wife could operate quite nicely to protect her self should the need ever arise.

Do you think I should have the right to own this?

[. ._]

That's one slick shotgun, Cat! It makes me wanna get my FAC!

One of these days I gotta fire a gun. Funny thing is, I have a certificate from the Canadian Forces that says Pte. ISTP was honourably discharged! I showed up, played a trumpet, drank cheap beer (at 17 yrs old), then quit. Never did fire a gun.

-istp

[Walker]

Cat you sly …. Cat, I smell bait!

This may surprise you Cat, but yes I do think you should have the right to own it (assuming you and your wife are good enough to use it to its potential ) I don’t like seeing people show up to the range with a $5500 rifle who don’t know that they have to sight their optics before using their scope.
Personally I have one of those Chinese Remington 870 knockoffs with my new fancy dancy folding stock (Hooray! supporting the peoples liberation army! Norinko firearms all come out of the same armory.) I also have a Yugoslav SKS (the one with the Bayonet and the attachment for an RPG), as well as the old trusty Winchester 357. No pistols as of yet, but at some point that is on the agenda… Id LOVE to get my hands on a totally impractical weapon however I guess I would have to keep it state side, IE: I would very much like a P-90.

How you ask would I have the political views I do and carry firearms? Well that is a question with a long philosophical answer which Id be more than happy to discuss over a drink. But I doubt anyone on here really cares to hear it.