17 days??!!!

[JungleRiot]

This alone should convince you to vote a hard NO. They thought they would let this chest nugget slip through the cracks FFS....

Screenshot_20240919_124010_Telegram.jpg (543.61 KiB) Viewed 7563 times

[tango308]

This is actually an improvement. NJA currently can be scheduled up to 18. This part of the TA reduces it from 18 to 17.

Currently in our CA:
27.14.03.01 Should the system return with an “unfeasible” solution using the primary constraints, then the maximum days worked parameter will be increased in increments of 1 day to a maximum of 18 days and A27.14.04 will not be applicable.

[Launchpad1]

This is actually an improvement.

I thought the current maximum per month for NB is 16 days.

[Texarcana]

Wrong conversation

[khedrei]

If it's an improvement why does it say increase

If it was increased that would imply it used to be lower.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I read the summary but can’t figure out a single thing because of all the damn acronyms. Probably cuz I don’t work there. But jeez, how many different letter combinations can there be.

[thrust set]

“it's an improvement why does it say increase“

They are talking about increasing past the 16 maximum days.
If they have too.

Right now they can have blocks go to 18 days to find a solution if need be.

[Bede]

But jeez, how many different letter combinations can there be.

For three letter acronyms, 26^3 = 17,576

[Eric Janson]

Off Topic - apologies

The 17 days reference was too good to pass up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tQXrw1 ... erekDenton


RIP Bill Paxton - always worth watching.

[yycflyguy]

Tell me why a 16 day cap on NB or WB is a good idea for the group.

[rudder]

Tell me why a 16 day cap on NB or WB is a good idea for the group.

You don’t need any cap if:

1. The pairings are efficient, or
2. You have rigs that account for inefficient pairings

If neither of the above apply, then you need a ‘max work days’ clause, unless you think having some pilots working 18/19 days is ok?

[thepoors]

Tell me why a 16 day cap on NB or WB is a good idea for the group.

You don’t need any cap if:

1. The pairings are efficient, or
2. You have rigs that account for inefficient pairings

If neither of the above apply, then you need a ‘max work days’ clause, unless you think having some pilots working 18/19 days is ok?

Don't forget, could be 21 if you have training..

[rudder]

Tell me why a 16 day cap on NB or WB is a good idea for the group.

You don’t need any cap if:

1. The pairings are efficient, or
2. You have rigs that account for inefficient pairings

If neither of the above apply, then you need a ‘max work days’ clause, unless you think having some pilots working 18/19 days is ok?

Don't forget, could be 21 if you have training..

Yup.

Efficient = YYZ-ICN-YYZ 28:15

Inefficient = YUL-CDG-YUL 14:35

Both 3 day trips. If you had a credit for 24 periods off duty away from base, it might turn the CDG trip in to a respectable credit, thereby working less days.

Not sure I saw that in the Executive Summary…….

[cdnavater]

You don’t need any cap if:

1. The pairings are efficient, or
2. You have rigs that account for inefficient pairings

If neither of the above apply, then you need a ‘max work days’ clause, unless you think having some pilots working 18/19 days is ok?

Don't forget, could be 21 if you have training..

Yup.

Efficient = YYZ-ICN-YYZ 28:15

Inefficient = YUL-CDG-YUL 14:35

Both 3 day trips. If you had a credit for 24 periods off duty away from base, it might turn the CDG trip in to a respectable credit, thereby working less days.

Not sure I saw that in the Executive Summary…….

There is a more detailed breakdown, section by section now out, your AC contacts should be able to get that.

[Man_in_the_sky]

I read the summary but can’t figure out a single thing because of all the damn acronyms. Probably cuz I don’t work there. But jeez, how many different letter combinations can there be.

i love Musk system where there is no acronym at all.

[Tigger]

Tell me why a 16 day cap on NB or WB is a good idea for the group.

Not sure that it is, in some ways. I’ve been told by smart people that creating blocks within this arbitrary limit causes the computer to melt down and start “unstacking” flying — taking productive stuff from senior bids to give to juniors to make the blocks work. The result is crappy blocks for everyone, at least on the narrow bodies.

[yycflyguy]

Tell me why a 16 day cap on NB or WB is a good idea for the group.

Not sure that it is, in some ways. I’ve been told by smart people that creating blocks within this arbitrary limit causes the computer to melt down and start “unstacking” flying — taking productive stuff from senior bids to give to juniors to make the blocks work. The result is crappy blocks for everyone, at least on the narrow bodies.

This is exactly my point and Rudder provided the solution. Efficient pairings eliminates many poor block solutions, not all though as juniority means more days at work. The 16 day cap only served to socialize the seniority system. Imagine after spending 15-20 years to get to the top of a fleet seniority and leaving thousands of dollars on the table, you get optimized at seniority number 1 and don’t get the flying or days off you wanted. Nope. Not cool.

Now imagine those that want long layovers for whatever reason. Exploring a different city, higher per diem, whatever. Now you’re taking that ability away from the guy that is content to do 18 days of “work” even though they are getting 48 hours at destination, an increase in per diem and some sort of TAFB pay. Be it TTG or this new ADG min. Again, not cool.

[Hangry]

No pilot should be forced to work more than 16 days. I don’t care if you’ve been at AC for 40 years or 40 hours.

Get over it.

[Canadaflyer46]

Tell me why a 16 day cap on NB or WB is a good idea for the group.

Not sure that it is, in some ways. I’ve been told by smart people that creating blocks within this arbitrary limit causes the computer to melt down and start “unstacking” flying — taking productive stuff from senior bids to give to juniors to make the blocks work. The result is crappy blocks for everyone, at least on the narrow bodies.

This is exactly my point and Rudder provided the solution. Efficient pairings eliminates many poor block solutions, not all though as juniority means more days at work. The 16 day cap only served to socialize the seniority system. Imagine after spending 15-20 years to get to the top of a fleet seniority and leaving thousands of dollars on the table, you get optimized at seniority number 1 and don’t get the flying or days off you wanted. Nope. Not cool.

Now imagine those that want long layovers for whatever reason. Exploring a different city, higher per diem, whatever. Now you’re taking that ability away from the guy that is content to do 18 days of “work” even though they are getting 48 hours at destination, an increase in per diem and some sort of TAFB pay. Be it TTG or this new ADG min. Again, not cool.

Jesus. Pilots defending the right to work 18 days to increase their per diem. The industry in Canada is truly rock bottom.

[ant_321]

No pilot should be forced to work more than 16 days. I don’t care if you’ve been at AC for 40 years or 40 hours.

Get over it.

I would argue 16 is too much. You should be able to be at home, uninterrupted at least half the month.

[Hangry]

No pilot should be forced to work more than 16 days. I don’t care if you’ve been at AC for 40 years or 40 hours.

Get over it.

I would argue 16 is too much. You should be able to be at home, uninterrupted at least half the month.

Agreed

[rudder]

No pilot should be forced to work more than 16 days. I don’t care if you’ve been at AC for 40 years or 40 hours.

Get over it.

I would argue 16 is too much. You should be able to be at home, uninterrupted at least half the month.

Agreed

Somebody should have told the NC.

Some AC pilots will continue to work 18-21 days in a month until 2028….. or longer.

[altiplano]

There are problems with this deal, but that's the biggest one.

Not money, but time. Time is the most valuable thing and this company abuses our time because they aren't made to adequately pay for it.

50% duty day. 50% DH, inadequate ADG that doesn't kick in until 2027 and still lags comparators, no improvement of TTG, it's still industry worst, training in addition to block still leaves us with 19 days months or more. We don't have any assurances on improving pairing quality or reducing unnecessary TAFB...

Then we move the blocking window up to 90! So senior guys can do 3 SYDs or BNEs in a month instead of 2 SYDs and an LHR? That reduces QOL down the list and increases numbers of trips and days for most.

We fell short on pay for everyone, I could handle that if we made serious gains in quality of life and productivity, but we didn't, we fell short on every section of this deal. And the free we did mostly sunny take effect for 2+ years.

Still it's going to be a 65% yes vote I am sure. Maybe better. People here still don't value themselves properly, and they don't value their time.

[rudder]

There are problems with this deal, but that's the biggest one.

Not money, but time. Time is the most valuable thing and this company abuses our time because they aren't made to adequately pay for it.

50% duty day. 50% DH, inadequate ADG that doesn't kick in until 2027 and still lags comparators, no improvement of TTG, it's still industry worst, training in addition to block still leaves us with 19 days months or more. We don't have any assurances on improving pairing quality or reducing unnecessary TAFB...

Then we move the blocking window up to 90! So senior guys can do 3 SYDs or BNEs in a month instead of 2 SYDs and an LHR? That reduces QOL down the list and increases numbers of trips and days for most.

We fell short on pay for everyone, I could handle that if we made serious gains in quality of life and productivity, but we didn't, we fell short on every section of this deal. And the free we did mostly sunny take effect for 2+ years.

Still it's going to be a 65% yes vote I am sure. Maybe better. People here still don't value themselves properly, and they don't value their time.

That pretty well sums it up.

You can always recover $$, you can never recover time. Just ask anybody who is either at the end of their career or the end of their life.

[8895]

As someone still under 30 who was debating making the jump to AC from a rival carrier, I’d like to thank the AC NC for making my decision to not apply to AC a no brainer. The more I hear about this TA from friends/online the more relieved I am that I stayed put.

Way to raise the bar, keep on flying that flag