, just woundering b/c oshawa atc allowed us to do a formation takeoff when leaving the expo.Formation Landing
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Formation Landing
Planning a flight to London(cyxu) in a few weeks with another aircraft. Question, Do u think it would be possible if we requested a formation landing that they would allow it??? , just woundering b/c oshawa atc allowed us to do a formation takeoff when leaving the expo.
, just woundering b/c oshawa atc allowed us to do a formation takeoff when leaving the expo.There's no such thing as a natural-born pilot.
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Bcn-In-Bnd
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I've flown formation (2 and 3 plane) around much of North America, and have not yet had a tower refuse a formation takeoff or landing.
My personal rule is that a minimum 150 foot wide runway is required for formation landings. The easiest and safest way is to probably break up into elements of two aircraft. Each aircraft "owns" it's side of the runway centerline, which is typically 75 or 100 feet. If the wing slides ahead of the lead during the landing after power-off, it's no big deal.
Formation landings are probably harder than formation takeoffs. You need plenty of formation practice in the air before you attempt formation takeoffs and landings because of the higher workload and precision required.
Remember the formation religion: WING NEVER LOSES SIGHT OF THE LEAD.
A corollary of the above is the sequence takeoffs can be very dangerous. Many misguided people have attempted blind sequence takeoffs (in tailwheel aircraft) with very expensive and even fatal results. With a nosewheel aircraft (probably what you are flying) this is much less of a problem.
This is from a photo session a couple days ago:
My personal rule is that a minimum 150 foot wide runway is required for formation landings. The easiest and safest way is to probably break up into elements of two aircraft. Each aircraft "owns" it's side of the runway centerline, which is typically 75 or 100 feet. If the wing slides ahead of the lead during the landing after power-off, it's no big deal.
Formation landings are probably harder than formation takeoffs. You need plenty of formation practice in the air before you attempt formation takeoffs and landings because of the higher workload and precision required.
Remember the formation religion: WING NEVER LOSES SIGHT OF THE LEAD.
A corollary of the above is the sequence takeoffs can be very dangerous. Many misguided people have attempted blind sequence takeoffs (in tailwheel aircraft) with very expensive and even fatal results. With a nosewheel aircraft (probably what you are flying) this is much less of a problem.
This is from a photo session a couple days ago:
I've personally landed a few times in formation in London, and in different aircraft types. Shouldn't be a problem.
An addendum to hedley's pointers. Make sure only one of you has a transponder on. Some ATC units have alarms that go off when transponder return are too close together.
Good luck
An addendum to hedley's pointers. Make sure only one of you has a transponder on. Some ATC units have alarms that go off when transponder return are too close together.
Good luck
It's better to break ground and head into the wind than to break wind and head into the ground.
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linecrew
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Formation Landing
ATC isn't Transport (ie. not enforcement) so they really have no grounds to refuse the formation landing without a valid reason. Such valid reason could be that either your formation so incredibly sloppy that the controller feels that safety is in question or perhaps your idea of formation is 1/2 mile in trail.
I've seen a busy circuit at CYXX where amongst the traffic in the pattern was a tight formation of two Nanchang CJ-6s. If you stay in fromation then ATC treats you like one aircraft..no problem.
I've seen a busy circuit at CYXX where amongst the traffic in the pattern was a tight formation of two Nanchang CJ-6s. If you stay in fromation then ATC treats you like one aircraft..no problem.
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Blue Side Down
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Yup - I hope we don't bother you too much with the noise!
P.S. I remember once flying through montreal airspace (3-plane form) and ATC rather weirdly asking me if I really was leading a formation - they couldn't see the other aircraft on (primary?) radar, and asked what our separation was.
As someone else mentioned, lead squawks the code and wing's transponders are on standby with the cavity tube warmed up in case ATC has trouble reading lead's transponder (it's happened to me) and wing squawks the code instead (lead goes standby).
Anyways, back to the Montreal story ... I told ATC our separation was about 20 feet (loose cruise) and never heard back from them.
P.S. I remember once flying through montreal airspace (3-plane form) and ATC rather weirdly asking me if I really was leading a formation - they couldn't see the other aircraft on (primary?) radar, and asked what our separation was.
As someone else mentioned, lead squawks the code and wing's transponders are on standby with the cavity tube warmed up in case ATC has trouble reading lead's transponder (it's happened to me) and wing squawks the code instead (lead goes standby).
Anyways, back to the Montreal story ... I told ATC our separation was about 20 feet (loose cruise) and never heard back from them.
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just curious
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In the early 80's I used to take my commercial students in a big four-ship gaggle to the YXY airshow from the Maritimes. We filed as "Lobster Flight". Landings & takeoffs were formation (although none of the Snowbirds were ever gonna sweat losing their jobs from us 
), with a 20 second delay on the roll of the second echelon.
I suspect we provided some entertainment value along the way
, although of course the students were deadly serious. Some of them brought along family members who purchased YXU airshow wing pins. At the end of the summer, plaques were made of these, and presented to all participants.
A couple of years later, I had a charter to pick up three strippers, and fly them back from the Maritimes to YUL, in a C172! Since it was out of an airforce base, and everyone else had cool call-signs like Lynx 13, and Pedro 54, I filed as G-String 01 Flight. While the ground guy was laughing as he gave me taxi clearance, it sort of stuck. As we wheeled into YQB for gas, we were given a follow me truck to park at the base of the tower, and the shift manager took 'us' (well, the passengers, but I tagged along, being a broke flying instructor
) and much the same in YHU. Almost everyone we talked to along the way remarked that they liked this crew better than the lobster flight designation.
Looking back on it the students might not have learned a lot, except to get out of the Maritimes to look for work. But they managed to network, see the outside world, and learned a bit about teamwork.
Not a lot of the ATC people are still around, but a phone call ahead of time might get you further thatn you know.
Cheers.
JC
), with a 20 second delay on the roll of the second echelon. I suspect we provided some entertainment value along the way
, although of course the students were deadly serious. Some of them brought along family members who purchased YXU airshow wing pins. At the end of the summer, plaques were made of these, and presented to all participants. A couple of years later, I had a charter to pick up three strippers, and fly them back from the Maritimes to YUL, in a C172! Since it was out of an airforce base, and everyone else had cool call-signs like Lynx 13, and Pedro 54, I filed as G-String 01 Flight. While the ground guy was laughing as he gave me taxi clearance, it sort of stuck. As we wheeled into YQB for gas, we were given a follow me truck to park at the base of the tower, and the shift manager took 'us' (well, the passengers, but I tagged along, being a broke flying instructor
) and much the same in YHU. Almost everyone we talked to along the way remarked that they liked this crew better than the lobster flight designation.Looking back on it the students might not have learned a lot, except to get out of the Maritimes to look for work. But they managed to network, see the outside world, and learned a bit about teamwork.
Not a lot of the ATC people are still around, but a phone call ahead of time might get you further thatn you know.
Cheers.
JC
