Misc WJ questions

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Good Day fellow Aviators,

I have a couple questions about Westjet as im just toying with my career options:
1. How often do you get called on reserve on average?
2. What would a full pension look like?
3. Current YYC upgrade times 737 and 787.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[Canadaflyer46]

I can’t speak to 1. 2 depends on how many years you have until retirement.
3. Most junior YYC captain is 11 years, currently 17 years to be off reserve as a YYC captain (these numbers from the updated pilot list for April). I would expect 15 years to be an optimistic/realistic upgrade time for YYC after we get some more aircraft. WJ is holding out for the mythical Max10 so it could be many more years until we see the growth they’re predicting in all the graphs from management.
As for 787 upgrade, never gonna happen. They have no plans currently to get more. 787FO is 9 years seniority.

If you’re dead set on living in YYC then it’s a good gig IMO, but don’t expect any semblance of the career progression/opportunites you’d get at AC.

[JBI]

Good Day fellow Aviators,

I have a couple questions about Westjet as im just toying with my career options:
1. How often do you get called on reserve on average?
2. What would a full pension look like?
3. Current YYC upgrade times 737 and 787.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

1- Really depends on base, equipment, seniority, month etc. I'd say the answer is "more often than not" but I know of pilots who seem to fly a lot on reserve and some that seem to barely fly at all.

2- The pension also really depends on your age and career path. The company puts in 10% and the pilot puts in 1% during your time at the company. It's called a DB Plus plan - so it's not quite like AC's old pension where you get a percentage of "your best two years" but it does take a percentage of the full amount that you've invested and then guarantees it for your lifetime as well as a survivorship benefit to your spouse. In my opinion it's great AS A PORTION of your retirement planning and savings. There is an estimator we have access to. For a 30 year old who stays on the 737 their whole career with a longer time to upgrade, the pension would be around $150,000 a year. For a 45 year old already here but upgrading in the foreseeable future, around $80,000 a year. I can't stress this enough for anyone though, also do your own retirement savings.

3- I agree with Canadaflyer46's numbers for upgrades. It's a long wait for YYC. But, tongue in cheek, WJ's YYC upgrade times are still quicker than Air Canada's upgrade times in YYC The more senior YYC pilots tend to split on either staying on the 737 as an FO, going on the 787 as an FO, or commuting to YWG and YEG for the upgrade. I've flown with a few YEG Captains who could hold YYC on RES but instead choose to commute to YEG to hold a line. All just depends on what lifestyle/schedule/pay works best for a person.

[lowoleo22]

I can’t speak to 1. 2 depends on how many years you have until retirement.
3. Most junior YYC captain is 11 years, currently 17 years to be off reserve as a YYC captain (these numbers from the updated pilot list for April). I would expect 15 years to be an optimistic/realistic upgrade time for YYC after we get some more aircraft.

Is that 11-15 years to upgrade then once you are Captain an additional 17 years to get off reserve? So you could be on reserve for say 20 years?

[JBI]

I can’t speak to 1. 2 depends on how many years you have until retirement.
3. Most junior YYC captain is 11 years, currently 17 years to be off reserve as a YYC captain (these numbers from the updated pilot list for April). I would expect 15 years to be an optimistic/realistic upgrade time for YYC after we get some more aircraft.

Is that 11-15 years to upgrade then once you are Captain an additional 17 years to get off reserve? So you could be on reserve for say 20 years?

No. The Reserve Line is at the company's discretion between the most junior 10-20% of a particular base and position. ALPA audits and releases the results - in April, 13% of YYC Captains were on reserve.

Right now the most junior YYC Cpt is a March 2014 hire. The Capt at 90% relative seniority at the base is a July 2012 hire and the Captain at the 80% mark is an Oct 2008 hire. For April, where 13% of Captains were on reserve, that would put it at around a May 2011 hire. Keep in mind sometimes more senior pilots will bid for reserve in a particular month with the hope that they will be on Long Call and able to pass on the flying.

With anything dealing with seniority though, you have to remember that there's no time guarantee, it's simply a matter of who is above and below you on the seniority list. It's like picking lines at a grocery store, one line may look like it's moving really quick, but then suddenly a price won't scan properly and everything stalls.

[fish4life]

I’d imagine the demographic in YYC would be older than other bases and probably had the most retirements coming ?

[Hangry]

Retirements. lol.

[truecolours]

The long upgrade situation is unfortunate for new hires, but I do believe things will pick up in the next few years. There are things the company can control and things they cannot control. The age demographic of the workforce is one of those things outside their control. WJ is still a relatively young company and the age of pilots that were attracted to the opportunity near the beginning were younger (at the time). That group is nearing 65. Yes - we don’t have a “retirement age” but not everyone wants to work to 75.

You can go to AC, but with their rapid hiring over the last few years and age of many of those recruits (young and very young), you’ll never see left seat 787 there either because you’ll have those younger senior pilots ahead of you.

[daedalusx]

At least AC pilots retire at 65 …

[goingnowherefast]

In the next 10-15 years, are we going to see AC and WJ switch positions based on respective retirement waves?

AC with the super young workforce and decades to upgrade?
WJ having all the retirements and quick upgrades?

[Hangry]

In the next 10-15 years, are we going to see AC and WJ switch positions based on respective retirement waves?

AC with the super young workforce and decades to upgrade?
WJ having all the retirements and quick upgrades?

No. That will never happen. Might give you the warm and fuzzies though.

[fish4life]

In the next 10-15 years, are we going to see AC and WJ switch positions based on respective retirement waves?

AC with the super young workforce and decades to upgrade?
WJ having all the retirements and quick upgrades?

Most likely yes

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What does reserve at WestJet look like?
For example are you able to pick your days off pretty good?
Is there a minimum number if days you need to be in reserve at a given time?
How is long call awarded? And do you get called less than regular reserve?

[phenix]

What does reserve at WestJet look like?
For example are you able to pick your days off pretty good?
Is there a minimum number if days you need to be in reserve at a given time?
How is long call awarded? And do you get called less than regular reserve?

You bid monthly for your days off and they are awarded by seniority. You often get what you ask for as long as it’s not unreasonable.
Reserve guys are usually scheduled 16 to 18 days per month
Long call is awarded to the 25% most senior pilots holding reserve. You get assigned more on long call than on short call

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What does reserve at WestJet look like?
For example are you able to pick your days off pretty good?
Is there a minimum number if days you need to be in reserve at a given time?
How is long call awarded? And do you get called less than regular reserve?

You bid monthly for your days off and they are awarded by seniority. You often get what you ask for as long as it’s not unreasonable.
Reserve guys are usually scheduled 16 to 18 days per month
Long call is awarded to the 25% most senior pilots holding reserve. You get assigned more on long call than on short call

Thanks for the reply!
I thought that WestJet had a socialized bidding system and that seniority wouldn’t affect your ability to bid?
What would “reasonable days off” look like?
I’m guessing you can’t just ask for weekends off?

[phenix]

You bid monthly for your days off and they are awarded by seniority. You often get what you ask for as long as it’s not unreasonable.
Reserve guys are usually scheduled 16 to 18 days per month
Long call is awarded to the 25% most senior pilots holding reserve. You get assigned more on long call than on short call

Thanks for the reply!
I thought that WestJet had a socialized bidding system and that seniority wouldn’t affect your ability to bid?
What would “reasonable days off” look like?
I’m guessing you can’t just ask for weekends off?

Only reserve in seniority bidding, blockholders are on the socialized system. I don’t know why
“Reasonable days off” means not asking for every second day off for instance. As long as you make room for 3-4 blocks of 4 or 5 reserve days each month, you’re usually good.

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You bid monthly for your days off and they are awarded by seniority. You often get what you ask for as long as it’s not unreasonable.
Reserve guys are usually scheduled 16 to 18 days per month
Long call is awarded to the 25% most senior pilots holding reserve. You get assigned more on long call than on short call

Thanks for the reply!
I thought that WestJet had a socialized bidding system and that seniority wouldn’t affect your ability to bid?
What would “reasonable days off” look like?
I’m guessing you can’t just ask for weekends off?

Only reserve in seniority bidding, blockholders are on the socialized system. I don’t know why
“Reasonable days off” means not asking for every second day off for instance. As long as you make room for 3-4 blocks of 4 or 5 reserve days each month, you’re usually good.

Would it be reasonable for a junior reserve holder to get weekends off?
How many days per month do you have off when on reserve? Just the 12 I’m guessing?
Would it be possible for somebody who is senior on reserve to get a short block of days? For example; at some airlines you only need to do 2 days of reserve in a row.
Thanks for the replies! Just trying to understand how bad, or good maybe, reserve would be. Because I’m guessing you would be on it for years.

[phenix]

Would it be reasonable for a junior reserve holder to get weekends off?
How many days per month do you have off when on reserve? Just the 12 I’m guessing?
Would it be possible for somebody who is senior on reserve to get a short block of days? For example; at some airlines you only need to do 2 days of reserve in a row.
Thanks for the replies! Just trying to understand how bad, or good maybe, reserve would be. Because I’m guessing you would be on it for years.

- Reserve is a small pool. Even in YYC which has the largest pilot group, there will be 40-45 FOs on reserve on an average month. So even if you’re the most junior on reserve, you should be able to get some weekends off if you bid every Saturday and Sunday off. I wouldn’t be surprised if you had most or all of them.
- 12-14 days off is likely
- Short blocks are possible, but the solver prefers long blocks. There is no possibility to bid the length of the reserve blocks, so the only way is to bid days off in a way to only allow short block. Like 2 days off, 2 days on, 2 days off, etc. I would qualify that as unreasonable bidding, 4-5 days is the norm and 2 days the exception
Regarding the time spent on reserve, it’s so variable than only avcanada posters have certainty about it. If I take the 20% and 10% marks, the dates of hire by base are:
YYC 20% Jul 23 10% Sep 23
YYZ 20% Sep 22 10% Jan 23
YVR 20% Sep 23 10% Apr 24
YEG 20% Aug 24 10% Sep 24
YWG 20% Nov 23 10% May 24
That illustrates how inconsistent it is, depending on the base and the period. Some people did 3 years of reserve, some less than 3 months.

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Would it be reasonable for a junior reserve holder to get weekends off?
How many days per month do you have off when on reserve? Just the 12 I’m guessing?
Would it be possible for somebody who is senior on reserve to get a short block of days? For example; at some airlines you only need to do 2 days of reserve in a row.
Thanks for the replies! Just trying to understand how bad, or good maybe, reserve would be. Because I’m guessing you would be on it for years.

- Reserve is a small pool. Even in YYC which has the largest pilot group, there will be 40-45 FOs on reserve on an average month. So even if you’re the most junior on reserve, you should be able to get some weekends off if you bid every Saturday and Sunday off. I wouldn’t be surprised if you had most or all of them.
- 12-14 days off is likely
- Short blocks are possible, but the solver prefers long blocks. There is no possibility to bid the length of the reserve blocks, so the only way is to bid days off in a way to only allow short block. Like 2 days off, 2 days on, 2 days off, etc. I would qualify that as unreasonable bidding, 4-5 days is the norm and 2 days the exception
Regarding the time spent on reserve, it’s so variable than only avcanada posters have certainty about it. If I take the 20% and 10% marks, the dates of hire by base are:
YYC 20% Jul 23 10% Sep 23
YYZ 20% Sep 22 10% Jan 23
YVR 20% Sep 23 10% Apr 24
YEG 20% Aug 24 10% Sep 24
YWG 20% Nov 23 10% May 24
That illustrates how inconsistent it is, depending on the base and the period. Some people did 3 years of reserve, some less than 3 months.

Thanks for the reply. What determines whether you will have 12 or 14 days off / month?

[phenix]

Would it be reasonable for a junior reserve holder to get weekends off?
How many days per month do you have off when on reserve? Just the 12 I’m guessing?
Would it be possible for somebody who is senior on reserve to get a short block of days? For example; at some airlines you only need to do 2 days of reserve in a row.
Thanks for the replies! Just trying to understand how bad, or good maybe, reserve would be. Because I’m guessing you would be on it for years.

- Reserve is a small pool. Even in YYC which has the largest pilot group, there will be 40-45 FOs on reserve on an average month. So even if you’re the most junior on reserve, you should be able to get some weekends off if you bid every Saturday and Sunday off. I wouldn’t be surprised if you had most or all of them.
- 12-14 days off is likely
- Short blocks are possible, but the solver prefers long blocks. There is no possibility to bid the length of the reserve blocks, so the only way is to bid days off in a way to only allow short block. Like 2 days off, 2 days on, 2 days off, etc. I would qualify that as unreasonable bidding, 4-5 days is the norm and 2 days the exception
Regarding the time spent on reserve, it’s so variable than only avcanada posters have certainty about it. If I take the 20% and 10% marks, the dates of hire by base are:
YYC 20% Jul 23 10% Sep 23
YYZ 20% Sep 22 10% Jan 23
YVR 20% Sep 23 10% Apr 24
YEG 20% Aug 24 10% Sep 24
YWG 20% Nov 23 10% May 24
That illustrates how inconsistent it is, depending on the base and the period. Some people did 3 years of reserve, some less than 3 months.

Thanks for the reply. What determines whether you will have 12 or 14 days off / month?

Luck of the draw, the maximum is 18 days and the standard is 16-18 days, but it can be less with no apparent reasons.
Maybe some bidding skills help as well, the blocks are assigned by a software

[JBI]

Would it be reasonable for a junior reserve holder to get weekends off?
How many days per month do you have off when on reserve? Just the 12 I’m guessing?
Would it be possible for somebody who is senior on reserve to get a short block of days? For example; at some airlines you only need to do 2 days of reserve in a row.
Thanks for the replies! Just trying to understand how bad, or good maybe, reserve would be. Because I’m guessing you would be on it for years.

- Reserve is a small pool. Even in YYC which has the largest pilot group, there will be 40-45 FOs on reserve on an average month. So even if you’re the most junior on reserve, you should be able to get some weekends off if you bid every Saturday and Sunday off. I wouldn’t be surprised if you had most or all of them.
- 12-14 days off is likely
- Short blocks are possible, but the solver prefers long blocks. There is no possibility to bid the length of the reserve blocks, so the only way is to bid days off in a way to only allow short block. Like 2 days off, 2 days on, 2 days off, etc. I would qualify that as unreasonable bidding, 4-5 days is the norm and 2 days the exception
Regarding the time spent on reserve, it’s so variable than only avcanada posters have certainty about it. If I take the 20% and 10% marks, the dates of hire by base are:
YYC 20% Jul 23 10% Sep 23
YYZ 20% Sep 22 10% Jan 23
YVR 20% Sep 23 10% Apr 24
YEG 20% Aug 24 10% Sep 24
YWG 20% Nov 23 10% May 24
That illustrates how inconsistent it is, depending on the base and the period. Some people did 3 years of reserve, some less than 3 months.

This is an excellent response. The minor detail that I’ll add is that the amount of reserve used each month can vary a bit. So it’s happened where pilots in the 15-20% range can get a line for a couple of months but then have a month or two back on reserve depending.

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Thanks for the replies!

When you do get a block what would that look like?
Average number of days off?
Is it reasonable to expect that if I ask for it I could only do single days or 2 days?

[ThrustIdle]

Between the stagnant upgrade progression & crap junior pay, WJ doesn't seem that great

[JBI]

Thanks for the replies!

When you do get a block what would that look like?
Average number of days off?
Is it reasonable to expect that if I ask for it I could only do single days or 2 days?

Short answer: mostly yes, you can mostly get single or 2 days and you'll usually get scheduled between 13-16 days a month.

It is more complex than that though and depends on the scheduled pairings that are available, what other pilots want, how important particular days off are etc.

Each month the company puts out the different pairings that will be available to pilots for a particular base and aircraft. These pairings will be between 1 and 5 days and have different layovers, destinations, days worked, start times, etc. The company is limited by how many 5 day pairings they can schedule. There tends to be a higher number of one day pairings and four day pairings as these tend to be the most efficient. There seem to be less 2 day and 3 day pairings.

Pilots then have an opportunity to rate their scheduling preferences on a weighed ranking system. You can choose up to 16 ranked criteria that include items like specific days off, days of the week off, pairing layovers, length of pairing, start time, destinations to avoid, desire/avoid red-eyes etc. What you get depends a bit on what other pilots want and how your ranked your choices.

My own experience is that you need to determine what your main priority is. For example, I have young kids, so I make it my priority to get weekends off. I've only been scheduled one Saturday and one Sunday in the last 3 months but have gotten every other weekend off. But it means that other priorities become secondary, so I've had not as many great layovers (but still a few), a couple red-eyes (which I don't mind too much) and a couple 5 day pairings. I have a good friend who loves 1 days, he doesn't care about weekends, doesn't really care about his destinations and places priority on one days. I ran into him a little while ago and he was mentioning that he'd only had like 2 layovers in the last 5 months or something.

I'll note with one days though, there are a lot of pilots who love them and with the new duty regulations, WestJet (and other Canadian airlines) have had to reduce the number of long "there and back" one day pairings that have been scheduled.

The computer scheduling system is a bit odd and you will get months that kinda suck. Most of the time it tends to be pilots end up bidding something that's impossible for the computer to do, but sometimes it's just the computer being weird.