Float Rating

[whiteguy]

Anyone know or recommend a good place to get a float rating done out west. I'm in Calgary and can travel fairly easily and my try a do the rating this winter if possible. Thanks for any responses.

[Blue Side Down]

do the rating this winter if possible.

[Blue Side Down]

...couldn't resist that one...

Sorry I can't be of more productive help- check the internet for details on float outfits around Vancouver (?)

[whiteguy]

...couldn't resist that one...

Sorry I can't be of more productive help- check the internet for details on float outfits around Vancouver (?)

I knew there would be one. Thats why I had the "out west" part. Thought there might be some on the west coast.

[FLYaJET]

Try Air-Hart aviaton in Kelowna, BC.

I just did my float rating there this summer. You can either do it on a Cessna 172XP or a Cessna 180. They accomadated me two days in advanced and i was done in less than 24 hours.

Great flying, great instructors. They know thier stuff.

[Cat Driver]

" and i was done in less than 24 hours.

Great flying, great instructors. They know thier stuff. "

How much of the stuff they knew could you have absorbed in 24 hours?

[Nappy]

Well, you can try in courtenay (courtenay flight center), they have a c-180, and a 15/25/50 hours course. Don't do just the minimum 7h, like cat driver hinted, impossible to get all the knowledge to be truly safe in 7h.... they should really get someone competent to revise that minimum in TC. And in my opinion, unless you get all the conditions you could get flying floats in 15 hours (well, most of them anyways) you should get BARE minimum 25h with instructor that knows what he is doing. Watch out for those who think they know everything...

[Pugster]

" and i was done in less than 24 hours.

Great flying, great instructors. They know thier stuff. "

How much of the stuff they knew could you have absorbed in 24 hours?

Not sure how that was possible, but believe it or not these guys are good...

Surprised you don't know them Cat - the owner has been a fixture on the float training market for a while as far as I know...

[Cat Driver]

I know the owner as I have visited him on several occasions when I was in Kelowna , where most of my family lives.

I have no reason to critize his school.

I can however unequivally state that there is no way that proper training can be given for the issuance of a sea plane rating in 24 hours.

Nappy's suggestion is closer to what is needed, and I would add the comment that unless a student can show profficiency on true glassy water the sea plane rating can not be issued. Sure there will be problems finding glassy water at times, however it is better the student experience it during training than all on his / her own for the first time.

The whole sea plane rating requirements are a joke in Canada and I advise the insurance underwriters to refuse to cover any pilot with insufficient training regardless of the amount they charge.

The issue of having higher requirements for sea plane instructors is also valid.

However when you have people making the rules who have no idea of what the subject entails you get what you have.

[mellow_pilot]

I suggest you look up a fella on the Island by the name of Cat Driver...

I hear he's the last word in flying in these here parts.


PS ., how much is a pby per hour?

[Cat Driver]

The PBY in Holland was costing 3,300 Euro per hour to operate this spring.

I can not do sea plane ratings in Canada because TC in Vancouver will not approve any training done by me.

So anyone wanting sea plane training from me will have to already have the rating.

[Airtids]

I'd love to help you out, but, alas, we've put our machine back on wheels for the end of the summer, and just sent our pilot off to Tofino for the rest of this season. Maybe try Dave Budd in YYJ (can't remember the name of his Op right now, but it'll come back), or wait until next spring and come on out here to Nelson.

http://www.highalpineair.com

[cessnafloatflyer]

Thanks for the recommend airtids!
Ocean Air (http://www.oceanair.ca) is the name. I'm flying the Beaver for Salt Spring Island Air on their Skeds this winter part-time and teaching in the Cessna the other 4 days...
On wheels?

[Hedley]

Dumb question: how many people have spent even 24 hours learning how to screw? If sex is unimportant to you, disregard.

[goldeneagle]

I can however unequivally state that there is no way that proper training can be given for the issuance of a sea plane rating in 24 hours.

Think i'd have to debate you on this one cat. When I did my initial float rating, it was done in one day, on a super cub. Went out to tabor lake with the instructor, we walked thru a considerable series of exercises, then over to the river for some circuits on the river. Probably half the time was spent 'on the water', sailing, taxiing, docking etc. We did it all in flat calm, and again in the currents.

When I left, I had a healthy respect for the differences of floating, and was well armed with the knowledge that i knew 'just enough' to be dangerous. Over time, operationally, I spent time on lakes, rivers, and later the ocean. I picked up a lot from the 'other folks', and, by gradually increasing the amount of difficulty I would expose myself to, I picked up a lot from just carefully trying things.

If you arrive with a good knowledge of airplanes, decent stickhandling skills, a healthy dose of common sense, and a good attitude, i can make a float pilot out of you in a day. If you arrive without the pre-requisites, all the training in the world wont make you good on floats. Then again, if my livelihood depended on spending time training, I'd probably still be more than happy to sell you a 50 hour float course, keep everybody eating for 2 weeks....

[Blue Side Down]

Anyone who's worked flying floats will tell you that it's impossible to be a safe float pilot after a straight 7 hour rating... and for good reason.

There's no real debate on this one... there's simply insufficient time in 7 hours (or 20 hours for that matter) to experience a majority the critical situations/ mistakes you will eventually encounter -and learn from them (so that when you get lazy at 500 hours you'll have the honest skill to survive whatever stupid thing you just tried to do).

And if you've never *almost* hit a dock... well, that in itself is quality training. A lot of respect (that develops good self sustaining habits) comes from such an incident.

Not that I have ever done something like that, or encourage it- but there are those who have, and those who will. When it comes to float flying: DFU

Blue skies-

[Cat Driver]

Goldeneagle:

I have no problem with your debating me on your learning curve and your initial float plane training.

After all that is what this forum is for, debating and expressing our thoughts and opinions on anything and everything about airplanes.

All I can do is give my opinion and base my advice on realizing that very few will have the ability to grasp a new flying dicipline in an amazingly short time frame. And of course as you related the weather gave you both glassy water and a rough water surface.

May I suggest that a very small percentage of pilots will be as quick to learn and lucky enough to have the conditions perfect for the exercises as you, I will once again opine that for the purpose of across the board sea plane training tailored to the masses 24 hours is an unrealistic time frame to turn out a sea plane pilot that is even marginally qualified to be a sea plane pilot.

The fifty hour Bush Pilot course is only as good as the teacher and the recepient. And 50 hours is nothing less than a number dreamed up by someone in the flight training business and embraced as gospel by the flock.

I am in a totally different mind set and have a more demanding expectatation of what level of mechanical skills and sea plane orientated knowlege a student must attain before I am satisfied and deterimine they are skilled and knowlegable enough to approve for a reduced insurance premium.

These discussions and opinions given here are as diverse as the people who paticipate.

My main intrest in conducting sea plane training is based on my association with and my training meeting the approval of the insurance underwriters in London England for the purpose of reduced insurance premiums once I sign the student off as competent, and this varies from individual to individual.

Cat

[Spokes]

One thing to keep in mind is what type of float course you want to do. If you want to train someone to be a professional float pilot, and to fly in many different types of conditions (ie wx/terrain/water currents/tides etc) then this would entail a very long course as described in previous posts. This would also need an instructor with vastly more floatplane experience than I have.

If you are teaching a hobbyist pilot to take a plane to the lake/cabin on weekends in fair wx then much less is needed (I would argue 15 hrs). It also does not need someone with thousands of floatplane hours. I would argue an experienced flight instructor with 100 float hrs could easily handle this.

Now I know what you are thinking. But there is nothing limiting the person to doing just this. This is true, but to some extent you must trust in the maturity of the person, and limit their rental privlidges to there ability. You must also as their instructor make it clear to these folks the danger of operating beyond their abilities. You should also use a very short currency limit. In our case 14 days currency is required to rent our float plane, or a dual is required.

I have taught several pilots in this catagory. It works out fine. I even had one european student who's first solo in any aircraft was in a float plane in glassy water. This was after 20hrs of float training 10 of which was on glassy water.

I would trust any of the folks I have trained to, on good days, take the plane to their property/lake/cabin etc. I would of course would not let them go, say, land in the slough at Gold River. If one of our renters had need of doing this, it would entail lots of dual in that spot prior to allowing it solo. (like I said, by limiting rental privledges).

I agree what has been said above about the 7Hr requirement. It is a bit light. I also agree with the comment on glassy water. I require my students to demonstrate proficiency in actual glassy water conditions. Fortunatly in the summer here on the left coast this is not a problem.

Now, having said all this, I know there will be many people who might disagree. Every school/instructor/renter must work out what is best for them I suppose.

Fly Safe

[Cat Driver]

Spokes, I agree with you but only because what you said is logical and true.

What would you ( and goldeneagle ) think of two sea plane ratings.


One recreational with say 15 hours. With xx hours time minimum for the instructor.

And one commercial with xx hours minimum time and a commercial sea plane background of xxx time for the instructor.

???

Cat

[cessnafloatflyer]

Let's keep in mind that the term hours really does not mean much; whether it is the instructor or the student. It is what has been done and seen and thus learned in this time. 100 hours spent in ideal conditions in a single place is not the same as 25 hours on rivers, in swells, tight docks, high altitude and glassy conditions, cross winds, tail winds and different configurations etc.

It's the variety of conditions: places, on the water, in the air and the aircraft itself, how to deal with them and then emergencies once they become proficient.

Too much emphasis is placed on hours... it's what you do, learn and see during your time. Not just time.

Seven hours is only enough time to teach that there is a lot to learn and that there is nothing like flying floats!

[Cat Driver]

Exactly, Cessnaflo...

But there has to be some benchmark, and experience is part of the equasion.

How was your season?

[cessnafloatflyer]

I couldn't agree more Cat; a benchmark... don't get me started!

A really busy and fun season here on the coast. Loads of flying and everyone learning. Some interesting trips to the North West part of the Island. Met great folks up there. Hauled a lot of fish!

Now working part time in the Beaver on the sked runs for Saint w/ Salt Spring Island Air. Really nice machines: AOP and VPB. Good fun and great people. Getting the Cessna running for them too. Finally people in aviation who can work together... rare indeed. I still do love teaching folks how to fly these machines though on the other days of the week.

Some of my past students have met with great success this season, lots of work and opportunity for those who go out and get it. Very rewarding indeed.

How about you? Busy in Holland I assume?

What do you think of the 206 with the 350 hp diesel?

[Spokes]

Spokes, I agree with you but only because what you said is logical and true.

What would you ( and goldeneagle ) think of two sea plane ratings.


One recreational with say 15 hours. With xx hours time minimum for the instructor.

And one commercial with xx hours minimum time and a commercial sea plane background of xxx time for the instructor.

???

Cat

I do not really think 2 different rateings are nessecary. A commercial operator will have there own ideas as to what kind of experience they want in a pilot. I do not think TC mandating some new requirement is a better thing.

Bringing the minimum time for a float rateing up from 7 hours to 15 (ish) might not be a bad idea. The current 50Hrs float time reqt for an instructor is a bit light I think. I taught a float rateing when I had this amount of experience and was a fairly new class 4 instructor. I felt a bit fraudulent at it. I did not feel my student was getting their moneys worth. I eventually passed her to a more experience float pilot (not instructor rated). I would put the number up to 80-100 maybe.

Of course now the whole problem of defining experience simply by hour count rears its ugly head here. Other experience/rateings ought to be considered. As a fairly low time float pilot with an instructor rateing I am now quite confident I can teach a neophite float pilot well enough to have fun and safely fly a float plane in reletively benign conditions. Without an instructor rateing and a strong background in teaching other flight related courses - maybe not?

The guy who taught me floats had several k hours at it. Good pilot, but sometimes I found myself working hard at trying to figure out what it was he was trying to get across. He had no formal instructor training. This left me guessing at alot of things. Sometimes rightly, somtimes not.

The answer to all of it as I see it? Not too far from what is in place now. There are several outfits that teach the so called proffessional float pilot course. Opinions vary as to how good this is, but these along with the 'learn it from the dock' crowd has been producing useful pilots. I think it is up to the buyer (ie prospective student) to shop around for the best school for them.

Minimum time for float rateing? I'd say somewhere in the 12-15 hour range. In this time I have found that I can have a reasonable pilot safe enough to fly a float plane in fairly good conditions. Maybe someone that teaches floats with less than 500hrs float experience should be a flight instructor? (exact numbers may vary). It seems to work for the IFR people.

Well, thats how I see it. More experience hands may have better ideas.

[goldeneagle]

Anyone who's worked flying floats will tell you that it's impossible to be a safe float pilot after a straight 7 hour rating... and for good reason.

Scroll up a ways, I think you'll see that I have stated quite the opposite. Yes, I've worked flying floats. I've done the bc interior (lakes and rivers), as well as the west coast salt water. Over the years, my 'title' in float operations has varied from 'swamper' on one end of the scale to 'chief pilot' on the other end. If i remember correctly, my float endorsement only included 5 hours, but, i may be wrong, it was a LONG time ago.

I think the thing everybody is missing here, is most folks seem to equate 'safe' float pilot with 'go anywhere' float pilot. Those 2 are not mutually inclusive categories, and the smarter/larger operators even reflect this in thier status of folks on the line. It's quite possible to have a very safe pilot, one who realizes that his/her limits are pilot ability/experience, and there will be places the 'go anywhere' driver can take a load, where the lesser experienced person probably cannot. the reality is, they probably can, but they'll be very uncomfortable doing it, and an uncomfortable pilot equates to an unsafe pilot.

The real problem with the whole 'float flying' thing is simple, floatplanes dont go to runways, they go to pieces of water, and water has a mind of it's own, normally influenced by weather and currents. Every landing is a landing on an unprepared surface, and, requires judgment. Good judgement is not something you learn in 7 hours, and, you dont learn it in 50 hours either. Good judgement is something a potential candidate must arrive with BEFORE they start the course. What they then learn during a float course, is how to apply that good judgement relative to operating a float plane.

So I'll stand by my earlier comments. Send me a fresh green commerical pilot with 200 hours, relatively decent stickhandling skills, and a good healthy dose of good sense. I'll spend 7 hours with them in a float plane, and send you back a good safe float pilot. They wont be a 'go anywhere' pilot yet, but, that'll only come with experience. An early float pilot is limited not by airplane limits, but by thier own personal comfort levels. It take time, practise, and exposure to expand those comfort levels till they start to bump into aircraft imposed limitations. After sufficient time and exposure to the world of flying floats, you then get a 'go anywhere' pilot, bounded by aircraft limitations. The real issue comes out when you realize, that 7 hour pilot bounded by personal comfort levels that preclude landing behind the seabus in the harbour isn't much use to a commercial operator on the west coast. That same person makes a good driver for a lodge on a 3 mile lake (never get a big chop there) that needs to go to town and land in the river for picking up supplies.

The real problem I see these days, isn't that the system cannot churn out good qualified float pilots with a 7 hour conversion, but it's much more fundamental than that. To churn out a good safe floater in 7 hours, you need to start with somebody that has good sense. I refrain from calling it 'common sense' because good sense isn't very common these days. without that starting mold of good sense, well, doesn't matter how much time you spend flying around with somebody, they will NEVER become a good floater. The mark of a good floater is knowing where they can go, where they shouldn't go, and where they cant go. These are 3 distinctly different places, and the whole key to float flying, is learning the differences between them.

[Cat Driver]

So far everyone is pretty well in agreement on the general issues surrounding sea plane flying ( I use sea plane rather than float plane to include other aircraft that fly off the water. )

One thing I can not wrap my head around is what exactly is the advantage of having an instructors rating?

I know there is no way that I would pass a ride for the class 4 instructor rating, and one of the reasons would be I would not satisfy a TC inspector that I could regurtate all that pablum in their version of how to teach.

So how come I manage to teach people how to fly?

Cat