UWO CAM

CYQT · Post by **CYQT** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:01 pm

Hey, discovered my huge intrest in aviation several years ago, and lately have been searching rigorously for the perfect college/university aviation program for me. About a year ago i came across the University of Western Ontario's Commercial Aviation Management Program. I am wondering if there are any graduates/attendies on this forum that can assist me in any way. I am currently in grade 11 and at the stage where i should begin to make up my mind. Is there any advice anyone could give me as to how to go about this program? my marks are currently at high 70's - low 80's and am aware that i should aim for mid 80's to even have a chance of addmission, i am taking all the required courses. What were your marks prior to admission? And how many people were admitted into first year? final year? And any other info available. If you cannot offer any info on UWO CAM, then please feel free to give advice on any other aviation program, preferrably in Ontario. I am also seriously considering Sault, Confed and Waterloo's new program starting up in 07', any insider info on these schools would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks a ton in advance.
Aaron

P.S. - Sorry if youve seen this question a million times, but every post ive read about this program is from 04' or earlier. Just trying to keep er' up to date. Thanks again

Stan_Cooper · Post by **Stan_Cooper** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:43 pm

Hey there... I wasn't going to post this on the public forum to avoid a pissing match but I thought the insight might be beneficial to more than just Aaron so here it is.

I graduated Sault College in the past few years and I have worked with people from the other two programs. I am also fairly familiar with the Waterloo program which will be starting, as I am good friends with the CFI who is starting that program.

UWO, Sault, and Confed all put out a quality graduate at the end of the day. As far as cities go, the Sault is the worst of the three but still not too bad.

UWO has two severe disadvantages in my view: 1) It is one year longer than Sault and two years longer than Confed. This means that your peers who start the other programs at the same time as you will have a huge headstart in the industry. The other is that it is ridiculously expensive compared to the other two. Even with cost of living if you can live at home while attending UWO, it is easily 15-25 thousand dollars more expensive than Sault. My former coworker who went to UWO said he had fun and it was a good program but he wished he had gone to Sault for those two reasons I just mentioned.

Waterloo academically of course has a great reputation among universities and the city is great, like London. I would have to advise against going to a startup program because I think the first 5 years of such a program will be guinea pig students on the flight training side. Things will probably go fine, but why go to a brand new program when you can go to one which has already established itself?

Don't underestimate the importance of the city you live in when you're choosing a school. I have seen a lot of people be unsuccessful in the Sault College program after they lost motivation because they were having a crappy student experience. Sault and Thunder Bay are both big enough as cities, but if you're not going to be happy being so far from home, you're just going to rack up a huge long-distance bill before you leave at the end of first semester or first year.

Hope this helps!

Aviatard · Post by **Aviatard** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:36 am

Nice one Stan. I bet your good friend the CFI will appreciate you warning people off of his brand new program.

CYQT · Post by **CYQT** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:40 am

Waterloo academically of course has a great reputation among universities and the city is great, like London. I would have to advise against going to a startup program because I think the first 5 years of such a program will be guinea pig students on the flight training side. Things will probably go fine, but why go to a brand new program when you can go to one which has already established itself?

I thought about this too, but then i remembered that Waterloo only does the academic side of things. They send you off to the Waterloo Wellington Flight Centre for all your flight training (A school that has been around for decades) So i really dont see the problem with going to a program such as waterloo's. I mean, how could you be a guinea pig when WWFC already knows exactly what they're going to teach you. Thats the only point in your post i don't agree with. Thanks for the input.

Miss Mae · Post by **Miss Mae** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:59 am

I'm sure there are good and bad points of all college & university flight training programs.

Keep in mind there is always the option of getting an unrelated degree and taking your flight training on the side...in the end it won't make much of a difference what your degree is in.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:10 am

Darn. I thought this thread would be live webcam of the Western female dorms. Lingerie, pillowfights, etc.

-istp

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:20 am

Gotta agree with Larry that what counts is hours in your logbook.

1000 hours is way better than 500 hours, 3000 hours is way better than 1000, and 5000 is better than 3000. It's really not very complicated.

I am no fan of aviation colleges, but there are 2 things about them that are beneficial:

1) in Ontario, the gov't pays for your flight training. It's insane, but hey, if they're giving away money why not stick out your hand?

2) networking. You're gonna meet people who might help you down the road. Often in this business, it's not WHAT you know, but WHO you know.

Good luck!

Stan_Cooper · Post by **Stan_Cooper** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:16 am

Aah, if WWFC is handling the flight training for UW then I retract my comments; I was under the impression it would be a different FTU handling the flight training.

CYQT · Post by **CYQT** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:22 pm

Some excellent info coming in here guys, i appreciate it. but still, anyone have any info on what the addmission marks are of current students? and how many are enrolled the first year? thanks

Grey_Wolf · Post by **Grey_Wolf** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:40 pm

To my knowledge

Conestoga College associated with Waterloo-Wellington Flight Center (Kitchener - Waterloo)

University of Western, paired with Empire Aviation (London)

*** As a June 2006 Grad from Conestoga College/WWFC, please PM if you want details

***

l_reason · Post by **l_reason** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:33 pm

istp

you want to see some of the UWO girls google "saugeen stripper" not really my thing but it was a big deal here in London last winter.

costermonger · Post by **costermonger** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:36 pm

Grey_Wolf wrote:To my knowledge...

The original question asked about UWO, Sault, Confed and UW. Flight training for UW's program will be conducted at WWFC.

Grey_Wolf · Post by **Grey_Wolf** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:10 pm

UW offers science and geography degrees combined with aviation
WATERLOO, Ont. (Sept. 6, 2006) -- Aviation enthusiasts will be able to learn to fly while earning a university degree through two new programs offered by the University of Waterloo.

A new bachelor of environmental studies degree in geography and aviation as well as a new bachelor of science in science and aviation will take flight starting September 2007. Recently approved by UW's senate, both programs were developed in partnership with the Waterloo-Wellington Flight Centre (WWFC).

In UW's faculties of environmental studies and science, aviation-related areas include solid-state physics, wireless communication, astrophysics, energy cells, fuels, remote sensing, climatology/meteorology, environmental sciences, computer cartography, geomorphology, global positioning systems and geographic information systems, among others.

The aviation component of both programs will cover professional pilot program requirements, delivered by WWFC. The WWFC, a non-profit organization established in 1932, has been offering flight training for more than 70 years and is widely respected in the Canadian aviation industry.

The new programs will cost about $50,000 for flight training, on top of about $25,000 in tuition fees over four years.

http://newsrelease.uwaterloo.ca/news.php?id=4767

..... I do apologize, at the time of my earlier posting, the only affiliation that i knew about was that WWFC was with Conestoga College. Great to hear WWFC is expanding with UW

monkeyspankmasterflex · Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:30 am

The new programs will cost about $50,000 for flight training, on top of about $25,000 in tuition fees over four years.

Wow.

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:38 pm

The UWO program is expensive, but keep in mind you have scholarship opportunities, based for the most part on academic performance. Throughout my 4 years there, I think I received over $20,000 in scholarships, which obviously helped out a lot.

fingersmac · Post by **fingersmac** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:40 pm

Aaron Lehman wrote: anyone have any info on what the addmission marks are of current students? and how many are enrolled the first year? thanks

I'm in my second year at Confed. I was accepted into the program off the waiting list last year with 70s/80s in high school and a college diploma from another school. We had 68 students enrolled last year and we are now down to 32. The school has a limited number of spots available at enrollment and the program is usually oversubscribed. There are no limits to how many students are allowed to continue and the attrition that we experience is due to students failing out (70% required for aviation courses, 60% for non-aviation courses).

This year however, the program was actually undersubscribed with less than 60 students enrolled.

I think this program is fantastic (mind you I don't really have anything to compare it too!); Flying starts right away in the first semester, float flying in the summer, instructors that are always available and willing to spend time briefing/teaching/tutoring, new multi-million dollar facility, large well maintained fleet.. and extremely affordable at $8500 total which includes your diploma and CPL with float endorsement (24 hours on floats). Like someone said earlier: if the government is handing out subsidized training, why not take advantage of it if you can.

Also, as Clunckdriver posted above, a diploma or degree in aviation is not very useful when looking for your first few jobs and especially useless if you want to work outside aviation. Even though I already have a diploma in another field, I plan on using my aviation diploma to secure advance standing towards a degree from Athabasca University (one of the world's leading open universities - distance learning). That way I can work on a degree in my spare time while building experience/hours. I'm doing it as a back up but also because I really want to complete a degree as a personal goal.

If you have any specific questions about Confederation College and their aviation program don't hesitate to message me or post in this thread. I'll try my best to help you out.

Blue Side Down · Post by **Blue Side Down** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:22 am

$50,000 flight training... $25,000 education...

Seems to me that you could complete a Commercial with Multi-IFR, go to school and get a real degree, and then have cash left over to build time with- if you took your future (ie money like that) into your own hands...

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:14 am

Ok 50K might seem like a lot, but at the end, you get a nice pin.

scubasteve · Post by **scubasteve** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:18 am

that is outrageous but I also think the days of CPL, multi, and instructor for $26000 as was posted are over as well. As for how many are still in aviation from those programs I agree that it is a small number. I spent a number of years at western and only a small percentage made it all the way thru. I'm still paying for it and I had to quit before my CPL. Even if just going thru a FTU it is a huge amount to spend for the returns.

Mist Approach · Post by **Mist Approach** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:20 pm

Hey Aaron,

I'm a UWO grad, so PM me and I'll give you all the real info you need.

Overall, I think UWO is the best way to go. I know it's helped me with my career and if I could go back and make the decision again, I wouldn't change a thing. Although it's now getting more expensive, I think you would enjoy and benefit from it.

Like I said, PM me and I'll get back to you when I can.

MaximumAmazing · Post by **MaximumAmazing** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:31 pm

I did one of those stupid diploma degrees and it was such a waste of time and money. I can be the first to admit I was dumb and blind and so naive. To anyone who is thinking about a diploma program think it through. Guys like clunckdriver know what they are saying. I just wish I knew about this site before I jumped off the edge like a lemming. I could be driving a new car instead of riding a second hand bike. If you take anything from this do your homework. Because when your done getting raped you might look back and realize you did it to yourself.

CYQT · Post by **CYQT** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:35 pm

thats a little harsh wouldnt ya say? When you say: you dont get anything out of it? do you mean besides the 4 year bachelor degree in business? or besides all the flight training from a world class facility? I know the price is steep but...in my mind its worth it.

l_reason · Post by **l_reason** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:10 pm

Aaron
I don’t mean to offend you but you are quite young. I’m not sure you really know how long it will be before you make your money back in aviation (if ever). Do a quick bit of research on what an instructor or a dockhand makes. I’m assuming your folks are footing the bill for your edu. When you have been out of school for 3 years and making less then the young girl that served you a coffee at Tim’s you’ll see why you should find the cheapest way to get the same qualifications. Which will leave some extra coin for some other training floats, tailwheel, spray, or to renew your MIFR because you have not used it in 2 years.

Good luck!

costermonger · Post by **costermonger** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:42 pm

I don't want to sway anybody one way or another, but when I was considering which route to take, I came to the conclusion that a university program wasn't financially viable unless somebody else was footing the bill without the expectation of full repayment.

If you're spending somebody elses money, then I guess this doesn't really matter, but if you're planning on paying for it yourself, through bank loans, etc, do some serious number crunching. You really don't want to figure out that you can't afford this education when you already owe the bank enough to buy a damn nice car, maybe two.

ehvee8r · Post by **ehvee8r** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:05 pm

Back when I went to UWO CAM, along with C-HRIS and others it wasn't really all that bad in terms of money. Not sure of the costs today. You had several scholarships if you had your marks high enough and had a steady stream of bursaries as well. THe training is top notch, as long as you can get flying - WX. in YXU can go down the crapshoot.

The main thing is that the degree you get is very similar to a regular business degree and if your flying career doesn't takeoff (no pun intended) you have a very well respected degree as a backup. Many of the graduates are doing well in the aviation management side of things, and many are flying as well. The program is challenging no doubt but also a lot of fun. You'll enjoy the eye-candy at western!!

Overall not a bad program, i would recommend it for those who want a well rounded degree and have high academic marks. The marks will get you scholarships to offset some of the costs for sure.

hope this helps.

UWO CAM

UWO CAM

SC, ConC, UW, UWO?

Re: SC, ConC, UW, UWO?

WWFC and UW?