What in the hell do questions about sex, and race have to do with getting hired at Air Canada.
Is it legal in this day and age to ask questions like this? Age or marital staus can not be held for or against against a person and therefore is not asked.
We know that they are certainly not asking the question so that they can rule you out if you are of a certain race or sex, so it only seems logical to conclude they are asking the questions so they can meet quotas for certain demographics.
If this is the case, is this not against human rights? Should it not be the right job for the right person regardless of race, sex and so forth?
Maybe I am out to lunch but it just does not seem right to me. Am I missing something???
AC online application questions-sex, race, etc
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hercdriver
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that mentioned "preferences" stated for new hire candidates. White males were excluded..-
tripleseven
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First of all, it is not mandatory to fill out the questionaire. I didn't and I got an interview.
Also, I know of two female pilots who were interviewed and were turned down. It was my opinion and many others that both would have made awesome AC employees. Those are the breaks.
Also, I know of two female pilots who were interviewed and were turned down. It was my opinion and many others that both would have made awesome AC employees. Those are the breaks.
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comeoneileen
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tonysoprano
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I'm actually astonished this comes as a surprise to anybody. I've never seen an application that doesn't have those questions. Every company in this country (and elsewhere) have to hire a mix of sex and race in order not to be labled prejeduced. I'm willing to bet it's also the law!! Get over it chaps, it's a new world.
They can ask this to further employment equity goals. The federal government requires every employer with over 100 employees to keep track. At Jazz they make you fill this form out every year, but you have to send it in (blank is ok). I always leave it blank, but we have some blind lesbian native captains working for us.
The Employment Equity Act is enforced by the Canadian Human Rights Commission. It places a responsilbility on federally regulated employers to increase the representation of women, aboriginals, visible minorities and persons with disabilities. Failure of companies to comply with the Employment Equity Act or the Human Rights Act can lead to fines of up to $50,000.
Information provided on your part when applying is strictly voluntary.
Information provided on your part when applying is strictly voluntary.
So is this information used at all in deciding who to interview? ie: Would the hiring team ever skip over a well qualified individual because he ticked the boxes saying he's a white male with no handicaps?
"Yeah. There is a problem. You...because you're dangerous. You're dangerous and foolish - and that makes you dangerous! Now, let's cut the...crap. We've got a plane to fly. Let's try to be on time, okay?"
~Val Kilmer, Saturday Night Live
~Val Kilmer, Saturday Night Live
Are these companies required to hire percentages corresponding with applicants or based on the general population.
Only 3% of ATPL holders are women yet 50% of the population is, how do they calculate the number required to hire? Obviously less than 50% of new hires are women, but I think it's definately more than 3%.
I have nothing against hiring women or minorities based on a formula, as long as it doesn't give an unfair advantage to a certain group.
What is the theory or rationale behind this, is the thinking that only 3% percent of qualified applicants are woman because they are less likely to enter the field because it is male dominated, or is it because less women are interested in the career of a pilot.
If the former is the case, than it would stand to reason that you hire more women in order to level the playing field, initially this gives an advantage to women, but in the long run it will work.
If the latter is the case, than this is truly an unfair disadvantage for men.
Only 3% of ATPL holders are women yet 50% of the population is, how do they calculate the number required to hire? Obviously less than 50% of new hires are women, but I think it's definately more than 3%.
I have nothing against hiring women or minorities based on a formula, as long as it doesn't give an unfair advantage to a certain group.
What is the theory or rationale behind this, is the thinking that only 3% percent of qualified applicants are woman because they are less likely to enter the field because it is male dominated, or is it because less women are interested in the career of a pilot.
If the former is the case, than it would stand to reason that you hire more women in order to level the playing field, initially this gives an advantage to women, but in the long run it will work.
If the latter is the case, than this is truly an unfair disadvantage for men.
Gee, why do you think that is? Everytime it is an issue, white males are excluded. Give me a f*%king break!!! Everyone wants equality and affirmative action as long as it works in their favour. Equality is equality. If there are exceptions, it is not equality, it is favouratism.Either way, white males never agree with affirmative action.
Maybe the airline has more white males flying because there are more white males that hold an ATPL than any other group in society.
Would you want a "quota filler" doing the open heart surgery on a loved one or yourself for that matter, knowing that he/she/it/that was hired to fill a demographics criteria and the better candidate was not hired because he happened to be a white male?
I don't care who you are, woman, man, black, green, yellow, burgundy, christian, muslim, budha etc..., when the shit hits the fan , the people in the back are going "c'mon Mav, let's see some of that pilot shit". It would be of little consilation to their loved ones to know that the plane crashed because AC hired an inexperienced, underqualified gomer to meet some quota.
On the flip side, if whitey is not the best person for the job, he shouldn't get it. My opinion is most qualified gets it. PERIOD!!! How do you get that? Bring back the sim eval, dump the psych test. Plain and simple. No colour or gender benders, just plain old fashion interview and sim eval. If the little bit of pressure put on an individual in a sim eval causes them to screw up, imaging what would happen if their life was on the line and not just a job?
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Mustang Sally
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OK....touchy subject. I find it difficult to believe that Air Canada would hire someone who is not qualified or capable, just to fill a quota. So, lets assume that all possible candidates do meet the standard required. All equally qualified, skilled and capable.
That being said, white, male pilots most likely make up the majority in this group of possible candidates. This fact is likely not due soley to discrimination against other groups. However, white, male pilots most likely also make up the majority of those who were hired in the past. As a result, as it is with many other professions, the white male pilot is seen as the "norm" for this occupation. This stereotyping of the white male as the professional pilot, is a result of normal human nature. But, unfortunately creates a potential for race or gender discrimination.
Equal opportunity policies are in place to minimize the effects of this.
The thing to keep in mind is that these minorities are being protected against discrimination by these policies. Without the employment equity act, many qualified and capable candidates would be overlooked simply because of their gender or race.
The hiring policies at AC seem to be a mystery to most. However, I think with this type of job it is impossible to describe in difinitive terms what would make the ideal candidate. I would have to think that it would serve the best interests of all involved if the flight crew at Air Canada was somewhat diverse. It is a shame that some people find this threatening.
That being said, white, male pilots most likely make up the majority in this group of possible candidates. This fact is likely not due soley to discrimination against other groups. However, white, male pilots most likely also make up the majority of those who were hired in the past. As a result, as it is with many other professions, the white male pilot is seen as the "norm" for this occupation. This stereotyping of the white male as the professional pilot, is a result of normal human nature. But, unfortunately creates a potential for race or gender discrimination.
Equal opportunity policies are in place to minimize the effects of this.
The thing to keep in mind is that these minorities are being protected against discrimination by these policies. Without the employment equity act, many qualified and capable candidates would be overlooked simply because of their gender or race.
The hiring policies at AC seem to be a mystery to most. However, I think with this type of job it is impossible to describe in difinitive terms what would make the ideal candidate. I would have to think that it would serve the best interests of all involved if the flight crew at Air Canada was somewhat diverse. It is a shame that some people find this threatening.
It happens.I find it difficult to believe that Air Canada would hire someone who is not qualified or capable, just to fill a quota.
I guess the only fair way would be to conduct the interview over a phone with a voice modulator so that the panel could detect neither race or sex on the other end. I doubt very much that the women and non whites would want that as the "minority trump card" would dissappear and they would only have an opportunity to get hired based on skill and experience, not what colour their skin is or wether they have breasts or not.
I am only bitching about the same thing that women/minorities are demanding, FAIR PLAY! Equal is equal. You can't have equal but one side gets a few extra points for sex/race. That is not equal!
I've heard of the Employment Equity program before but wasn't aware that you could be fined!!! 
I wonder if the people who enacted that program have ever had to deal with someone that was totally incompetent, but was there because they needed more (insert your own minority here)
I have to agree with Traf on this one. Hire the most qualified person.. PERIOD. If it happens to be a blind gay french speaking native woman with a limp, then so be it. But to hire people strictly to make a quota is insulting both for the person hired as well as for the more qualified people that are turned down. I know several woman at AC that are extremely good pilots, who worked hard to get where they are and were more than qualified for the job. However as long as companies continue to hire to meet the said quota, alot of people will look at them and assume they got where they are because of their gender. Interview and sim. Simple.
Aviation is a bit different from other industries in that if the person hired isn't up to snuff, people can get killed.....
I wonder if the people who enacted that program have ever had to deal with someone that was totally incompetent, but was there because they needed more (insert your own minority here) I have to agree with Traf on this one. Hire the most qualified person.. PERIOD. If it happens to be a blind gay french speaking native woman with a limp, then so be it. But to hire people strictly to make a quota is insulting both for the person hired as well as for the more qualified people that are turned down. I know several woman at AC that are extremely good pilots, who worked hard to get where they are and were more than qualified for the job. However as long as companies continue to hire to meet the said quota, alot of people will look at them and assume they got where they are because of their gender. Interview and sim. Simple.
Aviation is a bit different from other industries in that if the person hired isn't up to snuff, people can get killed.....
Please.
There have been a number of VERY low time white males hired on at AC lately. Some with only navajo time if I am not mistaken. And some high time experienced women have been given pfo's. At least one that I know personally.
So give me a break.
There have been a number of VERY low time white males hired on at AC lately. Some with only navajo time if I am not mistaken. And some high time experienced women have been given pfo's. At least one that I know personally.
So give me a break.
When a free man dies, he loses the pleasure of life. A slave loses his pain. Death is the only freedom a slave knows. That's why he's not afraid of it. That's why we'll win.
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AirbusDriver
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Well sometimes they slip throught the cracks. You can fault the person for taking the job if even they suck. However, you can fault the system. I sat in the jumpseat of emj and watched a girl try and handfly an approach, all over the place, and just about dragged a pod on touchdown with a 8 knot crosswind. Not to mention my buddies sim partner, which the company gave her like 6 extra vi cuts cause she kept crashing the 767. The vi cut is a non event in the 767, easy as pie, but this one slipped through. Ihope this is not reg occurance or they better pay me line idoc captain pay to be a skipper here.
Spartacus, I never mentioned I was in favour of nepotism! There are all kinds of serious hiring policy flaws at AC. Your reply is for another thread though.
There is no quota for white males to be filled. If someone is getting on at AC with Navajo time as his/her biggest airplane flown, then that person most obviously is on the daddy day care program. No argument would change my mind otherwise.
This thread however is about AC asking about your sex or race with the intent of using that in their decision regarding employment.
The definition of descrimination is this :"Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice". AC is trying so hard not to descriminate against certain groups that they are stepping on the toes of another.
Well, we keep coming back to the same old problem that the hiring is not based on hiring the most qualified, but is based on a system that rewards points for race or sex. Simply put, it is descrimination! The difference here is it is against white males and in today's North American society, that is somewhat acceptable.
There is no quota for white males to be filled. If someone is getting on at AC with Navajo time as his/her biggest airplane flown, then that person most obviously is on the daddy day care program. No argument would change my mind otherwise.
This thread however is about AC asking about your sex or race with the intent of using that in their decision regarding employment.
The definition of descrimination is this :"Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice". AC is trying so hard not to descriminate against certain groups that they are stepping on the toes of another.
Well, we keep coming back to the same old problem that the hiring is not based on hiring the most qualified, but is based on a system that rewards points for race or sex. Simply put, it is descrimination! The difference here is it is against white males and in today's North American society, that is somewhat acceptable.
I agree with traf, the qualified ones should be hired, because then is it only about equality.the white male pilot is seen as the "norm" for this occupation.
And as for that comment about white males being seen as the normal i would have to disagree with a little bit.
If you've ever been to a major transit airport like EHAM or EGLL even EDDF, you'll see that white males isn't necessarily the majority of the pilots walking down the gates. You see Brown, Black, Asian, and a ton of other races.
But one question that i would ask is this, would an airline really throw a white or any other race male off the hook of getting hired with 8000 PIC hours in a JET if there was another candidate not from the same race with 3500 JET hours looking for the same job? I sure as hell would think not. So wouldn't it come down to the "most qualified person" at the end of the day anyway? Regardless of race, sex, and other funky stuff...
Because i do find it a bit retarded that just because there is a lack of girls / natives / middle easterns / asians / and other minority groups in an airline, that the airline goes ahead and hires the visible minority even if the hours would be lower than what that 8000 Jet Pic male had...
Okay, i'll go back to the FT forum now.
