Are you AME out there sick of bad wages
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
Are you AME out there sick of bad wages
I know I am. And I have a plan to get out. I have been working 10 years in the biss. The only way to make money is to travel 8 months out of the year.And its not even all that good of money.
Yes! Sick of lousy wages, lousy hours, and lousy cheap ass companies. One of the hardest things to take is the 20 something AMEs that don't have mortgages families or kids and think that $20 per hour is a pile of cash. It's not. I could go on but.....
Aviation is a drug, but like drugs it's not good for you.
Aviation is a drug, but like drugs it's not good for you.
People should not have to fear both the government and the criminal. It should be that the criminal fears both the people and the government.
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Pat Richard
- Rank 8
- Posts: 904
- Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:36 pm
- Location: all over
First of all I want to say that there is alot of money out there as AME's. You just have to look for it. It may not be where you want it to be. If this is the case you should find a new career. I am very content with what I do and where I am. I made the decision to move away from Canada to make "Big Bucks" Let me tell you it is not all that is cracked up to be. My Point is if you are not happy with the wages move on.
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KISS_MY_TCAS
- Rank 5
- Posts: 339
- Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:31 am
- Location: ask your mom, she knows!
Sick of it, yes. Have a backup plan, yes. Happy where I am including wages, yes. Aviation is not stable now, nor has it ever been but I earn enough to pay my mortgage, raise my family, and have plenty of cash in my pocket after the bills are paid. The problem on the mtce side is the same as the pilot side, there is always someone there willing to do the same job for less money than you are and until that idea disappears there is no hope for anyone in the industry. If I left my current position, there is a lineup of guys willing to do the same job with the same level of knowledge/experience for less money than I am paid which is really pretty prohibitive to earning a respectable wage. Change needs to happen at the root of the industry (colleges), but it never will due to the simple fact stated:
One of the hardest things to take is the 20 something AMEs that don't have mortgages families or kids and think that $20 per hour is a pile of cash
My Point is if you are not happy with the wages move on
I love it you put up a post about wages and the classic "move on" statement is made.
Wages are negotiable look at the job posting here 90% of them end with Wages: TBA TBN DOE .
What we need is a little more negotiating. Many places I've worked (once hired) make no wage differntials for experience on type. Eg. An AME with 10 years experience on a type is paid the same as the guy with 9 years less experince but he has ACA so he is paid based on ACA.
Look I don't want to get off topic and I want to make on point perfectly clear. Change happens and it takes individuals to do it. Wages have gone up lately but we need to keep moving forward.
I have always been in a similar financial boat as KISS_MY_TCAS but I think that I have been above the industry standard, based on the wage polls here for AME's. I always negotiated my rate of pay and not accepted just what was offered.
2wasp if you feel that you had to go to Africa to get good wages and I should get out for wanting any competant AME to be paid as much as a GM mechanic makes in Canada then stay there we don't need your help in this market.
People should not have to fear both the government and the criminal. It should be that the criminal fears both the people and the government.
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expeditionsnorth
- Rank 1
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:27 pm
I work for a good airline and think that this must be the only one that does not kill you for what you get paid. But as anything - I am also looking for job gratification and therfore every job / company has its plus and minus points. The trouble is that way too many people go into this filed thinking that it could make you rich and then get annoyed to fnd out that anybody at your local emergency shelter makes only three bucks less as an attendant, feeding the drunks. So, gratification means a lot to me. I'd rather be happy. Besides, happy people seem to move up the ladder a lot faster. Just how much is enough???
I dont understand NORTH OF 60, you post a topic about how bad the money is in aviation and then congratulate hoptwoit for his positive post where he states "Change happens and it takes individuals to do it. Wages have gone up lately but we need to keep moving forward.
I have always been in a similar financial boat as KISS_MY_TCAS but I think that I have been above the industry standard, based on the wage polls here for AME's. I always negotiated my rate of pay and not accepted just what was offered."
I have always been in a similar financial boat as KISS_MY_TCAS but I think that I have been above the industry standard, based on the wage polls here for AME's. I always negotiated my rate of pay and not accepted just what was offered."
hoptwoit: What we need is a little more negotiating.
Hell yeah
hoptwoit: Like he said. What F#$% us up is all the new guys comming into the bizz working at 12h. And the AME thaking 20H jobs.
Hell yeah
I make good money but compared to other line of work its a joke.
What you think one guy can change every AMO out there.
Gli77:I always negotiated my rate of pay and not accepted just what was offered."
No shit:Thats what every AME should be doing ,but there not .Most dont have the balls to do so. Like the guy that just makes enuff to pay his morgage.
Gli77 what the hell dont you understand!
Hell yeah
hoptwoit: Like he said. What F#$% us up is all the new guys comming into the bizz working at 12h. And the AME thaking 20H jobs.
Hell yeah
I make good money but compared to other line of work its a joke.
What you think one guy can change every AMO out there.
Gli77:I always negotiated my rate of pay and not accepted just what was offered."
No shit:Thats what every AME should be doing ,but there not .Most dont have the balls to do so. Like the guy that just makes enuff to pay his morgage.
Gli77 what the hell dont you understand!
Thank you for your arrogant reply to my polite question. A lot of advancement in this field comes with attitude and demeanor.
What I was elluding to was the fact that you posted a negative topic about AME wages and stated that you were done and getting out of the business. Then following a positive post by hoptwoit with regards to change happening, and that we need to keep things moving forward you join in and congratulate him with many exclamation points. Therefore I do not understand your negative stance one moment and the your congratulations towards a positive post the next moment.
What I was elluding to was the fact that you posted a negative topic about AME wages and stated that you were done and getting out of the business. Then following a positive post by hoptwoit with regards to change happening, and that we need to keep things moving forward you join in and congratulate him with many exclamation points. Therefore I do not understand your negative stance one moment and the your congratulations towards a positive post the next moment.
Hmm, not sure how to re-phrase??
Your post is low ame wages and you are done. Getting out of the business. I see it as a negative post.
Hoptwoit posts he see's change happening and things must be kept moving forward in a positive direction. I see it as a positive post.
You then post "right on hoptwoit well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "
Your support of hoptwoit's post does not mesh with your topic which was negative? This is what I was questioning. One of these things is not like the other.
Your post is low ame wages and you are done. Getting out of the business. I see it as a negative post.
Hoptwoit posts he see's change happening and things must be kept moving forward in a positive direction. I see it as a positive post.
You then post "right on hoptwoit well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "
Your support of hoptwoit's post does not mesh with your topic which was negative? This is what I was questioning. One of these things is not like the other.
Not to cast a shadow here but.....Again I want to be clear here.Hoptwoit posts he see's change happening and things must be kept moving forward in a positive direction.
I did not say I see change happening.
I said change happens. What I mean by that is that change can happen but it takes us AME's to do it. The fact that wages went up in the last few years has little to do with the type of change I am talking about and more to do with the fact Mc Donalds was paying more money than some AMO's wages had to go up everything else did.
With regard to wages lets be realistic there are already a couple of posts here that in my humble opinion have contributed to the curent wage problems. Keep in mind this is not a personal attack but Im about to guote a few things.
Rich??? The wage comarisons I have made here are to a GM mechanic. Rich how did we get to rich.The trouble is that way too many people go into this filed thinking that it could make you rich and then get annoyed to fnd out that anybody at your local emergency shelter makes only three bucks less as an attendant, feeding the drunks. So, gratification means a lot to me. I'd rather be happy.
I love the work I do too or I wouldn't be in in Aviation but being an AME is having a trade and as trades people we as a collective group should have enough pride in what we do to demand a fair wage for it.
My point is that there are only a few people posting on this so far and by the sounds of it there would be a few who would do the same job for less money.
Quick math for a normal work week 40 hours there are 52 weeks in a year thats 2080 hours in a year before OT. I have seen adds for DOM positions for $25 an hour thats 52,000 before OT we really shouldn't see adds like that. Worst part is they find people to fill these positions.
Since we are on the topic what would people here honestly like to see or expect to see an AMO pay for an AME with M1 Beach 200 100 some piston twins and acouple of singles. What should an AME with 5 years experience make?
People should not have to fear both the government and the criminal. It should be that the criminal fears both the people and the government.
I like where you are taking the forum hoptwoit!
But I am afraid I am going to disappoint you and say that in my opinion an AME M1 with 5 years experience working on a Beech 200 and some pistons, $52 000 a year is a fair wage. In fact I would say that is a very good wage. The reason I say that is because the market those aircraft are in is generally not a high profit market( I assume we are talking in Canada) So basically speaking this would be a general aviation market. The only way I think you are going to make more money with an M1 is on the helicopter side.
The problem I see on this forum is everybody paints aviation with the same brush, which is rediculous. A mech working on that Beech 200 in the Yukon will never attain the training and have the same responsibilities as his/her motivated counterpart at AC as an ACA on the A320. The modern world is driven by papers, that is why a degree has essentially become the bench mark.
So I read on here that aviation sucks and our lives are over. Yet there are guys in heli logging making good money, guys doing contract making good money, guys overseas making good money and guys working small charter operators , flight training units, and cheap MRO outfits not making good money. Throw in the E & S guys and the spectrum becomes very very wide. It is possible to build up a big savings account. But it usually requires going contract, and/or going overseas or finding that sweet position.
As for the problems in Canada, yes I totaly agree that there are too many people who will do the job for less. But why do they do the job for less?? Debt, keeners, location, just dumb?
I also think that many people have no aviation knowledge prior to going to college and of course, as we know, college is not the place for practical job information. One big flaw in the college education is there is, or was, no offering of courses dealing with accounting, and business. No information of contract versus full time, or domestic versus international. Basically the education we got was pretty mediocre and I think the industry reflects that. The difference between a university degree and the AME course is very drastic.
So how many people reading this have completed more courses on their own after college? How many have taken computer courses, microsoft office, CAD, CATIA, acconting & finance courses, welding, NDT, languages etc.? How many have hit the finance isle at Chapters and bought the Wealthy Barber, The Richest Man In Babylon etc.
Therein lies the reason why I think some work for less. Poor financial sense. You should need very little student loans to complete a 2 year college course. Most should not need any loans. Many people, including myself, bought that brand new car after one year out of college. One of the dumber things I have done. Stay debt free or have low debt and you are doing well right off the bat. The only thing that should be financed is real estate. It is not how much money you make it is how much money you keep. An accounting course would teach the difference between incorporated company, self proprietor and full time employment.
I also figure one reason the AME wage structure is low is due to the high number of small outfits operating small aircraft. If there was a bigger airline presence then I think the average wage would be higher to compete.
So my advice, and feel free to pick it apart, is to choose your college program wisely for M, E, S. Come out of college and try to nail down the best job with the broadest experience possible. Next set your sights on your licence, and obtain as soon as possible. Then start building a firm foundation of knowledge, both in and out of aviation. Start making a list of every job ad you see, get an idea of the companies out there and what they do. Figure out where the money is. Contract, overseas, heli, then set your sights on it. Cessna, Beech, and Piper, generally do not compete with Boeing, Bombardier, and Sikorsky. Argue all you like but guys 5 years in either grouping will have much different pay scales and different marketability.
But I am afraid I am going to disappoint you and say that in my opinion an AME M1 with 5 years experience working on a Beech 200 and some pistons, $52 000 a year is a fair wage. In fact I would say that is a very good wage. The reason I say that is because the market those aircraft are in is generally not a high profit market( I assume we are talking in Canada) So basically speaking this would be a general aviation market. The only way I think you are going to make more money with an M1 is on the helicopter side.
The problem I see on this forum is everybody paints aviation with the same brush, which is rediculous. A mech working on that Beech 200 in the Yukon will never attain the training and have the same responsibilities as his/her motivated counterpart at AC as an ACA on the A320. The modern world is driven by papers, that is why a degree has essentially become the bench mark.
So I read on here that aviation sucks and our lives are over. Yet there are guys in heli logging making good money, guys doing contract making good money, guys overseas making good money and guys working small charter operators , flight training units, and cheap MRO outfits not making good money. Throw in the E & S guys and the spectrum becomes very very wide. It is possible to build up a big savings account. But it usually requires going contract, and/or going overseas or finding that sweet position.
As for the problems in Canada, yes I totaly agree that there are too many people who will do the job for less. But why do they do the job for less?? Debt, keeners, location, just dumb?
I also think that many people have no aviation knowledge prior to going to college and of course, as we know, college is not the place for practical job information. One big flaw in the college education is there is, or was, no offering of courses dealing with accounting, and business. No information of contract versus full time, or domestic versus international. Basically the education we got was pretty mediocre and I think the industry reflects that. The difference between a university degree and the AME course is very drastic.
So how many people reading this have completed more courses on their own after college? How many have taken computer courses, microsoft office, CAD, CATIA, acconting & finance courses, welding, NDT, languages etc.? How many have hit the finance isle at Chapters and bought the Wealthy Barber, The Richest Man In Babylon etc.
Therein lies the reason why I think some work for less. Poor financial sense. You should need very little student loans to complete a 2 year college course. Most should not need any loans. Many people, including myself, bought that brand new car after one year out of college. One of the dumber things I have done. Stay debt free or have low debt and you are doing well right off the bat. The only thing that should be financed is real estate. It is not how much money you make it is how much money you keep. An accounting course would teach the difference between incorporated company, self proprietor and full time employment.
I also figure one reason the AME wage structure is low is due to the high number of small outfits operating small aircraft. If there was a bigger airline presence then I think the average wage would be higher to compete.
So my advice, and feel free to pick it apart, is to choose your college program wisely for M, E, S. Come out of college and try to nail down the best job with the broadest experience possible. Next set your sights on your licence, and obtain as soon as possible. Then start building a firm foundation of knowledge, both in and out of aviation. Start making a list of every job ad you see, get an idea of the companies out there and what they do. Figure out where the money is. Contract, overseas, heli, then set your sights on it. Cessna, Beech, and Piper, generally do not compete with Boeing, Bombardier, and Sikorsky. Argue all you like but guys 5 years in either grouping will have much different pay scales and different marketability.
Very good wage hardly and I will tell you why in a moment fair at that level yes I would agree it;s a good start but only a start. I would also like to point out that the $25 an hour I stated was an add for a DOM. surely a DOM position is worth more than that.$52 000 a year is a fair wage. In fact I would say that is a very good wage.
These airplanes are flown to make money and make money they do. Fuel prices have basicly doubled in the last 2 years yet these companies continue to fly and make money because these extra costs were incorperted in there prices and passed on to the consumer. If the wages of AME's go up to a respectable level the same will hapen. This is the heart of the issue.The reason I say that is because the market those aircraft are in is generally not a high profit market( I assume we are talking in Canada)
Carefull, While I agree that ACA on a A320 is a large responsibility I also think that this statement is not acurate. After working for 32 staight hours with no second shift to relieve me or help me to get a 200 servicable, can I ever remember signing the books and watching the aircraft fly away thinking, thank god that thing can only kill thirteen at a time if I screwed up.The problem I see on this forum is everybody paints aviation with the same brush, which is rediculous. A mech working on that Beech 200 in the Yukon will never attain the training and have the same responsibilities as his/her motivated counterpart at AC as an ACA on the A320.
I bet that if you were on that plane you hoped I took my responsabilities as seriously as an A 320 Mech
In many ways the AMEs working in this market have to be very well rounded doing sheetmetal work one day, engine work the next day and so on. Most of these operations are not located in large centers and this means for most of your resources are only the ones in your own hanger.
Don't know of any privately operated Beach 200s. Last on one we bought was 1.8 million pretty pricey for private most private operators. I did run into a privatly operated Caravan though and even the owner was amused that the shop rate to do repairs on his Caravan was 50$ an hour, but the shop rate at the GM dealer to accesorize his brand new Chevy Avalanche was 85$ an hour. And that was a few years ago.in my opinion an AME M1 with 5 years experience working on a Beech 200 and some pistons. So basically speaking this would be a general aviation market.
How many have hit the finance isle at Chapters and bought the Wealthy Barber, The Richest Man In Babylon etc.
This has nothing to do with wages in aviation, you could make it required reading once a year in every grade and aviation wages would not go up.
I notice that your location is shown as outside canada here is a little news from home. Let me provide with a link the #1 reason I think that 25$ an hour is not fair, but only a good start. The following is a link to CTV news but the important part of it is this news http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... TopStories The average price for a residential home in a major market climbed to $303,836 in May, up 12.9 per cent from last year.
Once again I do not seek to make distinctions in this industry between M1, M2 fixed, heli, whatever we are all profesionals and deserve a fair wage. If wages in the M2 market go up so should the wages in M1 and so on. If one section wins we all win. Or at least that's the way I believe it should be.
People should not have to fear both the government and the criminal. It should be that the criminal fears both the people and the government.
Very good wage hardly and I will tell you why in a moment fair at that level yes I would agree it;s a good start but only a start. I would also like to point out that the $25 an hour I stated was an add for a DOM. surely a DOM position is worth more than that.$52 000 a year is a fair wage. In fact I would say that is a very good wage.
These airplanes are flown to make money and make money they do. Fuel prices have basicly doubled in the last 2 years yet these companies continue to fly and make money because these extra costs were incorperted in there prices and passed on to the consumer. If the wages of AME's go up to a respectable level the same will hapen. This is the heart of the issue.The reason I say that is because the market those aircraft are in is generally not a high profit market( I assume we are talking in Canada)
Carefull, While I agree that ACA on a A320 is a large responsibility I also think that this statement is not acurate. After working for 32 staight hours with no second shift to relieve me or help me to get a 200 servicable, can I ever remember signing the books and watching the aircraft fly away thinking, thank god that thing can only kill thirteen at a time if I screwed up.The problem I see on this forum is everybody paints aviation with the same brush, which is rediculous. A mech working on that Beech 200 in the Yukon will never attain the training and have the same responsibilities as his/her motivated counterpart at AC as an ACA on the A320.
I bet that if you were on that plane you hoped I took my responsabilities as seriously as an A 320 Mech
In many ways the AMEs working in this market have to be very well rounded doing sheetmetal work one day, engine work the next day and so on. Most of these operations are not located in large centers and this means for most of your resources are only the ones in your own hanger.
Don't know of any privately operated Beach 200s. Last on one we bought was 1.8 million pretty pricey for private most private operators. I did run into a privatly operated Caravan though and even the owner was amused that the shop rate to do repairs on his Caravan was 50$ an hour, but the shop rate at the GM dealer to accesorize his brand new Chevy Avalanche was 85$ an hour. And that was a few years ago.in my opinion an AME M1 with 5 years experience working on a Beech 200 and some pistons. So basically speaking this would be a general aviation market.
How many have hit the finance isle at Chapters and bought the Wealthy Barber, The Richest Man In Babylon etc.
This has nothing to do with wages in aviation, you could make it required reading once a year in every grade and aviation wages would not go up.
I notice that your location is shown as outside canada here is a little news from home. Let me provide with a link the #1 reason I think that 25$ an hour is not fair, but only a good start. The following is a link to CTV news but the important part of it is this news http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... TopStories The average price for a residential home in a major market climbed to $303,836 in May, up 12.9 per cent from last year.
Once again I do not seek to make distinctions in this industry between M1, M2 fixed, heli, whatever we are all profesionals and deserve a fair wage. If wages in the M2 market go up so should the wages in M1 and so on. If one section wins we all win. Or at least that's the way I believe it should be.
People should not have to fear both the government and the criminal. It should be that the criminal fears both the people and the government.
I do not argue against a wage increase for AME's I argue for a pragmatic approach to the profession. There are four categories for aviation, airlines, corporate, heli, and general aviation. The Beech 200, whether private or not, fits into the general aviation market.
The notion that rising fuel costs absorbed by the customer rates as a model to follow for AME raises is very simplistic and narrow minded. If you look in the pilot forums you will see that the operators of these aircraft also want more money, and likely if asked the rampies will want more money. If company A raised their wages for AME's then pilots would also demand raises and so on and so on, until company A's customers rates were much higher than company B. Rising fuel costs affect everyone therefore company A & B will raise their rates equally.
I would hope that a Beech 200 mech and an A320 tech will equally give their work the attention it deserves. But it should be simple to understand that the A320 tech will require about 6 weeks on an endorsement course and a solid 2 years to get a handle on the aircraft. This experience and skillset is in high demand on the world market with good rates. The Beech 200 is not.
Again, it is too simplistic to group M1's, M2's, E & S, Heli etc all into one group. Each group will work on vastly different aircraft in very different markets gaining much different skillsets and training, which may prove to be lucrative. If money is your concern then you need to take a look at the big picture and work yourself into a postion to take advantage of the higher rates.
Yes I have been working outside of Canada but I do have business ties to home and am very tuned to the real estate market. Can you tell me what profession has received a 12.9% pay increase to match the housing increase? Since we are trading economic links try this one
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2006/10/20/inflation.html
My overall point is not that AME's are receiving fair wages, I would love to see a wage increase. My point is that there is money to be made in aircraft maintenance in different areas. If money is your concern then start early and work your way towards the higher rates. I have never heard a sound idea of how to raise AME rates. One thing I do see gaining ground in Canada is contract work with higher hourly rates. If this style gains enough ground and more guys go that route then perhaps companies will begin to offer their full time staff a higher hourly rate.
Looking back I would also say that the education given by the colleges is minimal and does not cover the different areas of the industry or business, accounting and finance. By the time someone has spent 10 years in the business that is 1/4 of their working life. In most cases it takes people that long to get a bearing on the different paths.
The notion that rising fuel costs absorbed by the customer rates as a model to follow for AME raises is very simplistic and narrow minded. If you look in the pilot forums you will see that the operators of these aircraft also want more money, and likely if asked the rampies will want more money. If company A raised their wages for AME's then pilots would also demand raises and so on and so on, until company A's customers rates were much higher than company B. Rising fuel costs affect everyone therefore company A & B will raise their rates equally.
I would hope that a Beech 200 mech and an A320 tech will equally give their work the attention it deserves. But it should be simple to understand that the A320 tech will require about 6 weeks on an endorsement course and a solid 2 years to get a handle on the aircraft. This experience and skillset is in high demand on the world market with good rates. The Beech 200 is not.
Again, it is too simplistic to group M1's, M2's, E & S, Heli etc all into one group. Each group will work on vastly different aircraft in very different markets gaining much different skillsets and training, which may prove to be lucrative. If money is your concern then you need to take a look at the big picture and work yourself into a postion to take advantage of the higher rates.
Yes I have been working outside of Canada but I do have business ties to home and am very tuned to the real estate market. Can you tell me what profession has received a 12.9% pay increase to match the housing increase? Since we are trading economic links try this one
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2006/10/20/inflation.html
My overall point is not that AME's are receiving fair wages, I would love to see a wage increase. My point is that there is money to be made in aircraft maintenance in different areas. If money is your concern then start early and work your way towards the higher rates. I have never heard a sound idea of how to raise AME rates. One thing I do see gaining ground in Canada is contract work with higher hourly rates. If this style gains enough ground and more guys go that route then perhaps companies will begin to offer their full time staff a higher hourly rate.
Looking back I would also say that the education given by the colleges is minimal and does not cover the different areas of the industry or business, accounting and finance. By the time someone has spent 10 years in the business that is 1/4 of their working life. In most cases it takes people that long to get a bearing on the different paths.
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Stan Kehoe
- Rank 0
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:10 pm
- Location: Northern Ontario
I have been reading this post and I am pleased to see hoptwoit's opion but a little concerned about the comments from gli77. First, let me explain where I am coming from. I have been in the buisness for 18 years as an AME. I am not affiliated with a College or any kind of union. I need to clear that up before I say what I have to say.
Though I agree the training at College is not all "real world" material, the problem with young apprentices coming out of College and working for anything is not the fault of the College. It's an industry problem we as AME's have let happen. You can blame the guy willing to work for any wage just to get a job in aviation, but that's like kicking a dog because it ate a cookie you left on the floor. I seen reference in some of these post's to "trade" or "trades people". This is one of the main problems with AME pay. I seen the comparison to a GM mechanic and why the owner doesn't think twice about paying over $90/hr to get his SUV fixed but would sooner die than pay an AME $40/hr to fix his aircraft. Or the fact that plumbers or electricians are making over $45/hr. The problem with our industry is that we aren't considered a skilled trade. You ask the average person on the street what an AME makes and they immediately think at least $100K/year+. You then tell them we aren't even considered a skilled trade and they look at you like you're joking. How can we ask for higher wages when as a group we haven't made ourselves recognized as more than a bunch of "grease monkeys".
The electricians, plumbers and other "skilled trades" have a trade union that sets minimum standards for everything from working conditions to wages. Now I know everyone thinks unions hurt you more than help you (myself included). What I am talking about though is a trade association made up of AME's from all the different licenses. We need to represent ourself to Government and the industry as a unified group not a bunch of mercenaries willing to work anywhere for anything. If leaving the country and going overseas is the answer you find to fixing the low wages in Canada, then go. If making a level playing field for all to work and get paid what you deserve interests you more, than we need to figure out how to make this happen.
I seen the justification for a DOM making $52K is that "this is the general aviation market". Well the only reason is because the industry can become like a Walmart demanding cheaper and cheaper wages to help maintain their profits while they undercut their competition. If the industry had a set wage for that type of AME, the owners would pay if they want to stay in business. I would sooner see fewer operators that were solid and payed a good wage, than 100's of low cost fly by night companies who force AME's to fight among ourselves for a job.
I hope as a group we can evolve to a higher level within the industry. I know as a group we are highly educated and skilled. It's funny that we are handled by the Federal Government for our licensing because of the "high standards" we need to meet. The fact we have to be skilled and given training as often as we do to acquire and maintain our license shows a level of awareness by the government. We need to use this as our leverage to be accepted as a "skilled trade" and start being compensated for our level of skill. Instead of us all quitting aviation to become plumbers or electricians, lets become equal to them as a group!
Though I agree the training at College is not all "real world" material, the problem with young apprentices coming out of College and working for anything is not the fault of the College. It's an industry problem we as AME's have let happen. You can blame the guy willing to work for any wage just to get a job in aviation, but that's like kicking a dog because it ate a cookie you left on the floor. I seen reference in some of these post's to "trade" or "trades people". This is one of the main problems with AME pay. I seen the comparison to a GM mechanic and why the owner doesn't think twice about paying over $90/hr to get his SUV fixed but would sooner die than pay an AME $40/hr to fix his aircraft. Or the fact that plumbers or electricians are making over $45/hr. The problem with our industry is that we aren't considered a skilled trade. You ask the average person on the street what an AME makes and they immediately think at least $100K/year+. You then tell them we aren't even considered a skilled trade and they look at you like you're joking. How can we ask for higher wages when as a group we haven't made ourselves recognized as more than a bunch of "grease monkeys".
The electricians, plumbers and other "skilled trades" have a trade union that sets minimum standards for everything from working conditions to wages. Now I know everyone thinks unions hurt you more than help you (myself included). What I am talking about though is a trade association made up of AME's from all the different licenses. We need to represent ourself to Government and the industry as a unified group not a bunch of mercenaries willing to work anywhere for anything. If leaving the country and going overseas is the answer you find to fixing the low wages in Canada, then go. If making a level playing field for all to work and get paid what you deserve interests you more, than we need to figure out how to make this happen.
I seen the justification for a DOM making $52K is that "this is the general aviation market". Well the only reason is because the industry can become like a Walmart demanding cheaper and cheaper wages to help maintain their profits while they undercut their competition. If the industry had a set wage for that type of AME, the owners would pay if they want to stay in business. I would sooner see fewer operators that were solid and payed a good wage, than 100's of low cost fly by night companies who force AME's to fight among ourselves for a job.
I hope as a group we can evolve to a higher level within the industry. I know as a group we are highly educated and skilled. It's funny that we are handled by the Federal Government for our licensing because of the "high standards" we need to meet. The fact we have to be skilled and given training as often as we do to acquire and maintain our license shows a level of awareness by the government. We need to use this as our leverage to be accepted as a "skilled trade" and start being compensated for our level of skill. Instead of us all quitting aviation to become plumbers or electricians, lets become equal to them as a group!
Thank you for your post Stan. It's nice that someone can not only read my posts but also understand what I am trying to say. My comparisons of AME to a GM mechanic and referring to AME's as trades people was deliberate, but as you pointed out it is not accurate as we are not technically considered a trade or for that matter even skilled labor.
I really like the idea of an association as I too tend to chafe at the word union. How do you think the development of such an association may be achieved and implemented? Please elaborate.
Thank you again for your post Stan I was begining to think that my notions were to quote gli77 "simplistic and narrow minded".
This perception is at the heart of the issue.What I am talking about though is a trade association made up of AME's from all the different licenses. We need to represent our selves to Government and the industry as a unified group not a bunch of mercenaries willing to work anywhere for anything.
I really like the idea of an association as I too tend to chafe at the word union. How do you think the development of such an association may be achieved and implemented? Please elaborate.
Thank you again for your post Stan I was begining to think that my notions were to quote gli77 "simplistic and narrow minded".
People should not have to fear both the government and the criminal. It should be that the criminal fears both the people and the government.
Well I would have to start off by saying I am new to the industry like 2 months of being an apprentice, and I'm younger then a 20 somthing. I do not have a mortgage, how ever I live FAR from home and do pay rent (ridiculously cheap), I have no bills, except the studnet loan and that can be blamed on my lack of saving/proper job when i was younger. I work in the general aviation/airline we operate J31/32's, Beech, Beaver, and a few diffrent cessnas. I am making just slightly less then a friend of mine at cascade. I would have to say what needs to be done is that the colleges should help students make contacts with people in the indusrty, and from what I hear from my co workers BCIT does an excellent job of this. The reason for the contacts while a student is so that one can get job expeirence, can hear first hand on what to expect wage wise and work conditions, so that one can experience the diffrent parts of the industry, and lastly to find out where the jobs are. The reason people comming straight out of school are willing to take such a low wage is because when its a few weeks before graduating and the student has yet to start looking for a job that student will then be willing to take what ever comes his or her way. I started applying for jobs 2 months before graduating I had 3 interviews, and took the least paying one due to the fact of the experience I would get and that they gave me a deadline to accept and the other 2 interviews came afterwards. I dont agree 100% that we are a skilled trade, we are a bit more then that, however if being classified as a skilled trade would give us a wage increase then so be it. I do believe in a way we already do have a few associations such as PAMEA, what needs to be done is make a few changes such as nationalising these regional accosiations, then what needs to be done is not allowing owners of companies to join due to the fact that they would have a say in what the association would decide on what is a fair wage, the next step would be making this accosiation a federal lobby like the ATA.
Thanks for taking the time to read my opinion what ever revelence it may have
Thanks for taking the time to read my opinion what ever revelence it may have
Well hoptwoit your notion that doubling oil costs being passed onto the customer would be the same as rising wages being passed onto the customer is simplistic. Explain how you would get all operators to do this? It seems to me that it only takes one to figure out that if they cut the wages a little they can make more profit than their competitor, and so on and so on.
The idea of an association is a great idea but I have heard it before. When I left college there was this great association called CAMC that was to unifiy the aircraft maintenance trades and get us recognition. Here I am a decade later and still have no idea what CAMC does.
Airline pilots have an association and I believe it is pretty strong. But Caravan pilots do not. Instructors do not. So what is the model that we follow that will work in aviation and cover us all?
Again I am not saying that AME's do not deserve a higher wage, I am saying that we need to face reality. Aviation is an excellent example of an open market, it is a free for all. To do well I think you need to play the rules of an open market.
If you can expand on this idea of an association with some solid ideas I would love to hear it. I made a post a while ago on this site about the AME profession and the troubles that I see. I will cut and paste it in. Sorry for the length but I too have put a lot of thought into this problem.
Everyone thinks average “AME” wages are low. I counter that they fit the requirements. There is a wide range of wages and a wide range of skilled people. It is easily proven by posts on here of guys getting $10/hr and some making $70 000/year. The AME market is a free for all. If I am running an MRO I can hire anyone off the street to bash rivets, run wires and change tires. At the end of the day I need a couple skilled licenced AME’s to sign the book.
For wage averages to increase then the aircraft maintenance field has to take a step up to a higher level. Here’s how I see it could be achieved. The two year college course becomes a three year. Enhance the theory and practical, call it a technologist program. Tailor it so that a person may transition into a degree’d engineering course if they wish. After graduation you embark on a two year apprenticeship. You register with TC the date you graduated. You register with TC the date you begin employment in an AMO and any changes to your employment. During the two years you complete the tasks in your log book. At the end of the two years you submit the log book to be evaluated for having completed the required amount of tasks. If you have not then your employer and you must answer as to why you have not completed the tasks. You are granted one more year to complete the tasks. At the end of the year if you are still short there is something wrong with you or your employer and both would be investigated.
After the apprenticeship you go on to write the required exams with only a few being multiple choice. The remaining being question & answer and essay format. A practical examination would be required which could include a walk around an aircraft, an engine, an avionics rack etc etc, with the examiner asking questions and judging the answers. Included in that or separate would be an oral exam.
In the field only registered apprentices or licenced tech’s would be allowed to perform work on the aircraft. The licencing system would differentiate between M, E, & S, and work performed that falls under each category requires that licence to release it. By adding the third year to the college programs a tech would be able to apprenctice for a new licence category, example an M to get an E etc.
Fixed wing and rotary wing would be separated again. Fixed wing aircraft over 12, 500lbs would require an approved training course before a tech can release the aircraft. All rotary wing aircraft would require an approved training course before a licenced tech can release the aircraft. Recurrent training would be mandated at a set time interval.
That’s just my thought, of course reality is much different.
We want wages to go up then standards have to go up. At the moment it is a free for all, anyone off the street can work at an AMO that brings down the industry. As I stated in another post the title AME is a fallacy. We are NOT engineers. We are technicians or mechanics. Currently I need no education to work on an aircraft. At the least I can complete the M licence curriculum through correspondence and obtain an M licence. AME should be AMT.
Many compare aircraft maintenance to the auto industry, plumbers, welders etc. It is all completely irrelevant, beyond apples and oranges. These comparisons are the same as saying Tiger Woods makes millions hitting a little ball. It means nothing. Instead compare yourself to pilots, and actual engineers within our industry. Pilot college courses are more intensive than ours, 3 + years. They graduate and are licenced multi engine IFR pilots. They are required to keep their licences current. They receive regular recurrent training. They actually have to fly the aircraft for the examiner to achieve each level of skill.
A degree’d engineer has a 4 year program at a much, much higher level than I completed at college. To become a professional engineer there is a similar apprenticeship followed by exams. To become a DAD is a long term commitment in the design engineering field. This is a high level of achievement.
This argument deals only with the industry average. Many make good wages with their AME licence and they do so because they have proven their individual skill to an employer. Many complain about companies offering $13 to start as an AME. To that I say why not?? It makes good business sense, and TC allows it, nothing wrong there. Companies are not going to increase wages unless regulations become stricter taking the average level of tech’s up a notch.
To bring up wages, increase the level of education, increase the level examinations required, and increase the onus on the operators to raise the level of skill of the work force. Many see themselves as professional and skilled, most are and I am happy when I have the opportunity to work with that mentality, but that’s at the individual level.
As we all too often like to point out to the cheap outfits that pay low “you get what you pay for” Well I took a two year college program, wrote some multiple choice exams and got a licence. The guy beside me came in off the street with a pissy attitude and on a bad day I have to work with him. On a horrible day I have to sign for him. There goes the average wage and I got what I paid for.
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The idea of an association is a great idea but I have heard it before. When I left college there was this great association called CAMC that was to unifiy the aircraft maintenance trades and get us recognition. Here I am a decade later and still have no idea what CAMC does.
Airline pilots have an association and I believe it is pretty strong. But Caravan pilots do not. Instructors do not. So what is the model that we follow that will work in aviation and cover us all?
Again I am not saying that AME's do not deserve a higher wage, I am saying that we need to face reality. Aviation is an excellent example of an open market, it is a free for all. To do well I think you need to play the rules of an open market.
If you can expand on this idea of an association with some solid ideas I would love to hear it. I made a post a while ago on this site about the AME profession and the troubles that I see. I will cut and paste it in. Sorry for the length but I too have put a lot of thought into this problem.
Everyone thinks average “AME” wages are low. I counter that they fit the requirements. There is a wide range of wages and a wide range of skilled people. It is easily proven by posts on here of guys getting $10/hr and some making $70 000/year. The AME market is a free for all. If I am running an MRO I can hire anyone off the street to bash rivets, run wires and change tires. At the end of the day I need a couple skilled licenced AME’s to sign the book.
For wage averages to increase then the aircraft maintenance field has to take a step up to a higher level. Here’s how I see it could be achieved. The two year college course becomes a three year. Enhance the theory and practical, call it a technologist program. Tailor it so that a person may transition into a degree’d engineering course if they wish. After graduation you embark on a two year apprenticeship. You register with TC the date you graduated. You register with TC the date you begin employment in an AMO and any changes to your employment. During the two years you complete the tasks in your log book. At the end of the two years you submit the log book to be evaluated for having completed the required amount of tasks. If you have not then your employer and you must answer as to why you have not completed the tasks. You are granted one more year to complete the tasks. At the end of the year if you are still short there is something wrong with you or your employer and both would be investigated.
After the apprenticeship you go on to write the required exams with only a few being multiple choice. The remaining being question & answer and essay format. A practical examination would be required which could include a walk around an aircraft, an engine, an avionics rack etc etc, with the examiner asking questions and judging the answers. Included in that or separate would be an oral exam.
In the field only registered apprentices or licenced tech’s would be allowed to perform work on the aircraft. The licencing system would differentiate between M, E, & S, and work performed that falls under each category requires that licence to release it. By adding the third year to the college programs a tech would be able to apprenctice for a new licence category, example an M to get an E etc.
Fixed wing and rotary wing would be separated again. Fixed wing aircraft over 12, 500lbs would require an approved training course before a tech can release the aircraft. All rotary wing aircraft would require an approved training course before a licenced tech can release the aircraft. Recurrent training would be mandated at a set time interval.
That’s just my thought, of course reality is much different.
We want wages to go up then standards have to go up. At the moment it is a free for all, anyone off the street can work at an AMO that brings down the industry. As I stated in another post the title AME is a fallacy. We are NOT engineers. We are technicians or mechanics. Currently I need no education to work on an aircraft. At the least I can complete the M licence curriculum through correspondence and obtain an M licence. AME should be AMT.
Many compare aircraft maintenance to the auto industry, plumbers, welders etc. It is all completely irrelevant, beyond apples and oranges. These comparisons are the same as saying Tiger Woods makes millions hitting a little ball. It means nothing. Instead compare yourself to pilots, and actual engineers within our industry. Pilot college courses are more intensive than ours, 3 + years. They graduate and are licenced multi engine IFR pilots. They are required to keep their licences current. They receive regular recurrent training. They actually have to fly the aircraft for the examiner to achieve each level of skill.
A degree’d engineer has a 4 year program at a much, much higher level than I completed at college. To become a professional engineer there is a similar apprenticeship followed by exams. To become a DAD is a long term commitment in the design engineering field. This is a high level of achievement.
This argument deals only with the industry average. Many make good wages with their AME licence and they do so because they have proven their individual skill to an employer. Many complain about companies offering $13 to start as an AME. To that I say why not?? It makes good business sense, and TC allows it, nothing wrong there. Companies are not going to increase wages unless regulations become stricter taking the average level of tech’s up a notch.
To bring up wages, increase the level of education, increase the level examinations required, and increase the onus on the operators to raise the level of skill of the work force. Many see themselves as professional and skilled, most are and I am happy when I have the opportunity to work with that mentality, but that’s at the individual level.
As we all too often like to point out to the cheap outfits that pay low “you get what you pay for” Well I took a two year college program, wrote some multiple choice exams and got a licence. The guy beside me came in off the street with a pissy attitude and on a bad day I have to work with him. On a horrible day I have to sign for him. There goes the average wage and I got what I paid for.
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