What's Flair like these days?

[vrromvroom]

With hiring starting again at Flair, wondering how it is to work for as a pilot? Hasn't been much posted about it in a few years, and I'm sure plenty has changed.

[co-joe]

This summer has been busy with solid loads. There are upgrades happening, I think 18 positions, and a huge wave of outside hiring for new FOs to cover expansion and attrition. Somewhere around 30-40 new FOs starting training this fall. The new contract made solid gains in pay and lifestyle, and most of us are happy with the direction Len Corrado is taking us. There's always hiccups, and challenges, but a great deal of positivity on the line from maintenance, and pilots.

[boeingboy]

Things are looking up I would say....

Mark my words - Flair is going to become Sunwing 2.0

[twa22]

Things are looking up I would say....

Mark my words - Flair is going to become Sunwing 2.0

As someone who has a rather secure 705 job, i'm seriously considering, Flair but my biggest concern is, the whole bankruptcy thing... I know there hasn't been much in the news lately and it's been rather smooth sailing for Flair, but there was always that concern, so I'm curious what people who currently work there think of that

[lostav8r]

This summer has been busy with solid loads. There are upgrades happening, I think 18 positions, and a huge wave of outside hiring for new FOs to cover expansion and attrition. Somewhere around 30-40 new FOs starting training this fall. The new contract made solid gains in pay and lifestyle, and most of us are happy with the direction Len Corrado is taking us. There's always hiccups, and challenges, but a great deal of positivity on the line from maintenance, and pilots.

Are they hiring instructors?

[safetyfirst123]

Flair can definitely chip away at the Ontario and Quebec vacation market. I wonder if Sunwing Vacations has an exclusivity agreement with Westjet, or perhaps Royalton Resorts flying their guests down.

[flying4dollars]

Things are looking up I would say....

Mark my words - Flair is going to become Sunwing 2.0

As someone who has a rather secure 705 job, i'm seriously considering, Flair but my biggest concern is, the whole bankruptcy thing... I know there hasn't been much in the news lately and it's been rather smooth sailing for Flair, but there was always that concern, so I'm curious what people who currently work there think of that

This has been a concern by everyone but Flair employees since 2018. 8 years later, still going strong. I wouldn't worry too much given they have survived the worst of days. It seems they have a solid footing in the niche they created and evolved into. Just my 2 cents.

[MaxAuto]

Flair can definitely chip away at the Ontario and Quebec vacation market. I wonder if Sunwing Vacations has an exclusivity agreement with Westjet, or perhaps Royalton Resorts flying their guests down.

Sunwing Vacations falls under Sunwing Group along with all the other former Sunwing brands and includeds WestJet Vacation and WestJet Vacation Quebec.

Steven Hunter is the chairman of Sunwing Group and it all falls under WestJet Group of companies. The Hunters still own the resort side of thing separately.

I'm sure you can book a package though other platforms and airlines.

[flyinhigh]

Things are looking up I would say....

Mark my words - Flair is going to become Sunwing 2.0

Careful. Sunwing 2.0 sounds lovely however even they struggled financially. If everything was roses for them they would not have sold out.

[twa22]

Things are looking up I would say....

Mark my words - Flair is going to become Sunwing 2.0

As someone who has a rather secure 705 job, i'm seriously considering, Flair but my biggest concern is, the whole bankruptcy thing... I know there hasn't been much in the news lately and it's been rather smooth sailing for Flair, but there was always that concern, so I'm curious what people who currently work there think of that

This has been a concern by everyone but Flair employees since 2018. 8 years later, still going strong. I wouldn't worry too much given they have survived the worst of days. It seems they have a solid footing in the niche they created and evolved into. Just my 2 cents.

Yea that's fair, thanks for your input!

[Inverted2]

Is it still mostly day or night turns (single day pairings)?

[safetyfirst123]

Things are looking up I would say....

Mark my words - Flair is going to become Sunwing 2.0

Careful. Sunwing 2.0 sounds lovely however even they struggled financially. If everything was roses for them they would not have sold out.

Westjet was sold out first, so what are you suggesting about Westjet?

[flyinhigh]

Westjet was sold out first, so what are you suggesting about Westjet?

Nothing. WJ was highly profitable and ONEX paid big for it and promptly drove it into the ground. My point on Sunwing is that the vacation market has very small margins which has resulted in many carriers having issues.

Not sure a company who has a history of struggles should be entering/focusing on a a market where struggles have taken carriers out (i.e, skyservice)

[safetyfirst123]

Westjet was sold out first, so what are you suggesting about Westjet?

Nothing. WJ was highly profitable and ONEX paid big for it and promptly drove it into the ground. My point on Sunwing is that the vacation market has very small margins which has resulted in many carriers having issues.

Not sure a company who has a history of struggles should be entering/focusing on a a market where struggles have taken carriers out (i.e, skyservice)

Onex clearly saw something in Sunwing, and Sunwing was consistently profitable. What is true is that Sunwing expanded a lot prior to Covid with hotels, which incidentally is where the margins are, but throw in being highly leveraged and then Covid lockdowns, and sure it will hurt the business.

Skyservice was a different model. One thing that hurt Skyservice was when TUI purchased 49% of Sunwing, and as a result Skyservice lost 50% of their business when TUI transferred their Canadian vacation flying over to Sunwing.

[E2M]

Just saw the news, Flair received a 76 million bailout from Ottawa as emergency funds to be paid back within 4 years.
Not just Flair, Porter received 125mil and Air Transat has received 430mil.

This Middle East war is making things tough here...

[Hysteria]

Is it still mostly day or night turns (single day pairings)?

Anyone know the answer?

[co-joe]

Is it still mostly day or night turns (single day pairings)?

Anyone know the answer?

It really depends on your base and seniority now. More and more, yyc and yeg pilots are just the backup crew to keep yyz and yvr fully staffed. As a result, the bid packages are increasingly full of multi day pairings out of the bigger bases. It's not all bad, as many of those pairings are quite productive flying. There is still lots of single day flying, bringing you home every night, but it's mostly unproductive and means working 18 days a month. By contrast, yyz and yvr have lots of really high credit turns, but those do tend to go senior from what I've heard. The yul base opening in December is an unknown as of yet, we only know what the plan is, will wait to see how crews there are used.

[D24]

Is it still mostly day or night turns (single day pairings)?

Anyone know the answer?

It really depends on your base and seniority now. More and more, yyc and yeg pilots are just the backup crew to keep yyz and yvr fully staffed. As a result, the bid packages are increasingly full of multi day pairings out of the bigger bases. It's not all bad, as many of those pairings are quite productive flying. There is still lots of single day flying, bringing you home every night, but it's mostly unproductive and means working 18 days a month. By contrast, yyz and yvr have lots of really high credit turns, but those do tend to go senior from what I've heard. The yul base opening in December is an unknown as of yet, we only know what the plan is, will wait to see how crews there are used.

I would appreciate if you could provide more details of the schedule for a new FO at YYZ? Thank you

[CaptDukeNukem]

Reserve

[co-joe]

I would appreciate if you could provide more details of the schedule for a new FO at YYZ? Thank you

I don't have access to the yyz bid package, I could pick a random FO and tell you their schedule, but odds are it will be 18 days of either AM reserve, or PM reserve. Call out is 2 hours now as of September 1st, up from 90 minutes. I don't actually know and yyz FOs personally to ask, so maybe there are some here who'd be willing to comment.

[twa22]

I would appreciate if you could provide more details of the schedule for a new FO at YYZ? Thank you

I don't have access to the yyz bid package, I could pick a random FO and tell you their schedule, but odds are it will be 18 days of either AM reserve, or PM reserve. Call out is 2 hours now as of September 1st, up from 90 minutes. I don't actually know and yyz FOs personally to ask, so maybe there are some here who'd be willing to comment.

I'm in the same boat, so I want to ask, do you have the full contract available? Or anyone else for that matter. I'm fully expecting to be on reserve, and I've seen TA2 executive summary, but i'd want to go through the contract and compare to where i'm at before I make a decision.

[FlairOps]

I would appreciate if you could provide more details of the schedule for a new FO at YYZ? Thank you

I don't have access to the yyz bid package, I could pick a random FO and tell you their schedule, but odds are it will be 18 days of either AM reserve, or PM reserve. Call out is 2 hours now as of September 1st, up from 90 minutes. I don't actually know and yyz FOs personally to ask, so maybe there are some here who'd be willing to comment.

I'm in the same boat, so I want to ask, do you have the full contract available? Or anyone else for that matter. I'm fully expecting to be on reserve, and I've seen TA2 executive summary, but i'd want to go through the contract and compare to where i'm at before I make a decision.

Based on the last six months of published rosters, most YYZ FOs, including the newest class, are holding pairings rather than reserve. Reserve at YYZ is largely carried by captains. A few FOs held a reserve block in June and July (12 to 18 days, mostly AM), and those were used heavily. A new FO in their first year has averaged about 11 duty days and 14 days off a month, the remainder filled with duties that arrive just after midnight, vacation or training. A little over half of those duties are single day out and back from YYZ, and the overnights are mostly in western Canada.

[twa22]

I don't have access to the yyz bid package, I could pick a random FO and tell you their schedule, but odds are it will be 18 days of either AM reserve, or PM reserve. Call out is 2 hours now as of September 1st, up from 90 minutes. I don't actually know and yyz FOs personally to ask, so maybe there are some here who'd be willing to comment.

I'm in the same boat, so I want to ask, do you have the full contract available? Or anyone else for that matter. I'm fully expecting to be on reserve, and I've seen TA2 executive summary, but i'd want to go through the contract and compare to where i'm at before I make a decision.

Based on the last six months of published rosters, most YYZ FOs, including the newest class, are holding pairings rather than reserve. Reserve at YYZ is largely carried by captains. A few FOs held a reserve block in June and July (12 to 18 days, mostly AM), and those were used heavily. A new FO in their first year has averaged about 11 duty days and 14 days off a month, the remainder filled with duties that arrive just after midnight, vacation or training. A little over half of those duties are single day out and back from YYZ, and the overnights are mostly in western Canada.

Thank you for the detailed response!

[350driver]

You have to wonder how much longer the Flair/Porter/Transat regimes will last, heavily over leveraged, without proper fuel hedging and management programs, at these elevated oil prices?

Emergency funds don’t sound too good, do they?

Porter also just got leveraged debt out of a BRAZILIAN creditor.

Why did Porter go from being an investment project to now loading up on debt?

I get it. The execs at the top all believe in what they want to accomplish.

At some point, it’s fiction.

People talk as if Covid was some major event.

Was it scary? Did you wonder if you’ll ever fly again? Did fleets get shut down world wide? Did everyone get laid off? Sure.

In actuality oil prices stayed low, and by the time the Russia Ukraine war began elevating oil prices and interest rates, flying was back to profitable levels for most global airlines.

Some of the quickest upgrades occurred at AC in the history of promotions for 2022 new hires. Some can say the temporary lay off of 2020-2021 was met by a catapulting of inexperienced kids into left seats they still have no business being in. All of that to say, many got ahead after Covid. Same at Delta, American, United. Emirates paid 40% in annual salary bonuses two years back to back after Covid. So it wasn’t a net negative, likely a net positive for most pilots in the end.

This oil shock here is worse than whatever COVID did to the industry, mark my words, come back in 3-4 years and see if Porter E jets and Flair are still a thing.

Look at a wide, what’s going on.

WJ consolidates SWG.

Air Canada Rouge becomes 737 Max.

Do yourself a favour, go to any travel website, and tell me which Air Canada airplanes start doing vacation routes they’ve never done starting December 2026? Search routes like YWG PVR. Search YEG MBJ. Search YYC CUN.

Do you think flair will survive on routes that sharks like WJ and AC are competing on as early as a few months from now? How do you compete with 20 airplanes against a world class frequent flyer program? How do you compete against a Royal Bank underwriter issuing points and companion vouchers like candy land?

Pilots always fall for stories such as “we are going to be the next sunwing”

Rarely do they sit there and understand what it means to be sunwing, especially in the new era of Canadian aviation where for the first time AC is taking on expansion on products and routes it left for others.

Who do you think people will prefer? The better seats, better product, highly sought after loyalty / points programmes? Or flair?

The odd duck will try and sound original by saying people will chase price.

Eventually selling $149 to Cancun and back will cripple Flair when people can spend 20,000 Aeroplan points / WestJet dollars plus $49 in taxes and not have to à la cart their experience.

And if they’re really value shopping, swoop is still a fare class with lower pitch in the back 1/3 of WestJet cabins. So what’s the business case for Flair going forward? They already killed lynx. Flair is next. Unless they go back to monetizing charter flying, which would be their only saving grace if our oil and gas sector explodes again. Canadian north and Nolinor however has their fingers in pretty deep on that segment so I reckon 20 airplanes will be too big for a charter outfit at Flair, and there will be casualties by means of layoffs regardless

These are the gambles of going to these outfits.

On the other hand it’s looking like 10+ years before anyone getting hired gets upgraded at AC and probably north of 5-6 years before a widebody FO. The gamble here is the expansion doesn’t workout, and there’s net layoffs too. But even then, where would you rather be on layoff from? A defunct airline or a flag carrier?

Perhaps this finally turns things around and people stop drooling over quick upgrades as a mean to make money, and start uniting on fixing the lower tier of pay/life quality.

Flair will find 40 people this year with shiny jet syndrome who use hope as a strategy or have a weird infatuation with building sunwing 2.0

Out of those 40, about 500 will likely be laid off soon on top of Porters 800 or so, and they will all be competing for not much in the coming years by way of net hiring in this country.

If 1300 or so net layoffs hit the next few years; where would you rather be?

If the goal is Canada, AC and WJ is probably where it’s at and getting in now is probably better than trying later. The new hire bios don’t lie, the experience pool is going back up. Sure the odd 22 year old still gets in, but not like before.

Otherwise go to flair and get your time and go overseas if flying drones or using crash axes as a crm tactic is a thing you’re into. Too soon?

[rudder]

You have to wonder how much longer the Flair/Porter/Transat regimes will last, heavily over leveraged, without proper fuel hedging and management programs, at these elevated oil prices?

Emergency funds don’t sound too good, do they?

Porter also just got leveraged debt out of a BRAZILIAN creditor.

Why did Porter go from being an investment project to now loading up on debt?

I get it. The execs at the top all believe in what they want to accomplish.

At some point, it’s fiction.

People talk as if Covid was some major event.

Was it scary? Did you wonder if you’ll ever fly again? Did fleets get shut down world wide? Did everyone get laid off? Sure.

In actuality oil prices stayed low, and by the time the Russia Ukraine war began elevating oil prices and interest rates, flying was back to profitable levels for most global airlines.

Some of the quickest upgrades occurred at AC in the history of promotions for 2022 new hires. Some can say the temporary lay off of 2020-2021 was met by a catapulting of inexperienced kids into left seats they still have no business being in. All of that to say, many got ahead after Covid. Same at Delta, American, United. Emirates paid 40% in annual salary bonuses two years back to back after Covid. So it wasn’t a net negative, likely a net positive for most pilots in the end.

This oil shock here is worse than whatever COVID did to the industry, mark my words, come back in 3-4 years and see if Porter E jets and Flair are still a thing.

Look at a wide, what’s going on.

WJ consolidates SWG.

Air Canada Rouge becomes 737 Max.

Do yourself a favour, go to any travel website, and tell me which Air Canada airplanes start doing vacation routes they’ve never done starting December 2026? Search routes like YWG PVR. Search YEG MBJ. Search YYC CUN.

Do you think flair will survive on routes that sharks like WJ and AC are competing on as early as a few months from now? How do you compete with 20 airplanes against a world class frequent flyer program? How do you compete against a Royal Bank underwriter issuing points and companion vouchers like candy land?

Pilots always fall for stories such as “we are going to be the next sunwing”

Rarely do they sit there and understand what it means to be sunwing, especially in the new era of Canadian aviation where for the first time AC is taking on expansion on products and routes it left for others.

Who do you think people will prefer? The better seats, better product, highly sought after loyalty / points programmes? Or flair?

The odd duck will try and sound original by saying people will chase price.

Eventually selling $149 to Cancun and back will cripple Flair when people can spend 20,000 Aeroplan points / WestJet dollars plus $49 in taxes and not have to à la cart their experience.

And if they’re really value shopping, swoop is still a fare class with lower pitch in the back 1/3 of WestJet cabins. So what’s the business case for Flair going forward? They already killed lynx. Flair is next. Unless they go back to monetizing charter flying, which would be their only saving grace if our oil and gas sector explodes again. Canadian north and Nolinor however has their fingers in pretty deep on that segment so I reckon 20 airplanes will be too big for a charter outfit at Flair, and there will be casualties by means of layoffs regardless

These are the gambles of going to these outfits.

On the other hand it’s looking like 10+ years before anyone getting hired gets upgraded at AC and probably north of 5-6 years before a widebody FO. The gamble here is the expansion doesn’t workout, and there’s net layoffs too. But even then, where would you rather be on layoff from? A defunct airline or a flag carrier?

Perhaps this finally turns things around and people stop drooling over quick upgrades as a mean to make money, and start uniting on fixing the lower tier of pay/life quality.

Flair will find 40 people this year with shiny jet syndrome who use hope as a strategy or have a weird infatuation with building sunwing 2.0

Out of those 40, about 500 will likely be laid off soon on top of Porters 800 or so, and they will all be competing for not much in the coming years by way of net hiring in this country.

If 1300 or so net layoffs hit the next few years; where would you rather be?

If the goal is Canada, AC and WJ is probably where it’s at and getting in now is probably better than trying later. The new hire bios don’t lie, the experience pool is going back up. Sure the odd 22 year old still gets in, but not like before.

Otherwise go to flair and get your time and go overseas if flying drones or using crash axes as a crm tactic is a thing you’re into. Too soon?

It is a free 737 endorsement which may tip the scale in the next application. Nothing to lose.

Flair is the JetBlue of Canada (i.e. pipeline to Delta). Pass an airline SOP type ride on an aircraft over 100,000lbs - get a few hundred hours in airline type operations - and you move up in to the top quartile of successful applicants to AC/WJ/TS if that is your ultimate goal (don’t forget to pick up an ATP without remarks along the way for as long as that hiring restriction remains).

Flair knows its place in the industry. They cannot out pay/out pension/out job security Canada’s top 2 or 3. Turnover is a reality and therefore must be built in to their staffing model.