Is it difficult to start a new flight school from scratch? What are the most difficult obstacles in achieving this?
This is not my idea but just info on the subject in general.
Any suggestions positive or negative would be appreciated.
thank you for the time
New Flight School?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
I m not quite sure what you're asking; are you switching schools or starting flying and are having a hard time finding the school.
I'll answer both questions just in case either is what you asked.
In terms of choosing a school, it's a bit tricky, I agree. What i suggest is that you go and take up "FAM Flights" with all the schools that you seem to like, or at least the locals, and see how they are. If they're trying to suck up to you, you'll notice it in an instance. A true flight school is a place where you're treated in courteous manner; I learned that the hard way.
If you're switching schools, well i am experienced there too. I happened to switch schools and it was very positive. The atmosphere at the previous school as well as the mood seemed to be stressful, everybody was stressed out and did not seem to enjoy their work. It lead to bad service and at the end a loss of a rather good paying customer. I don't think i was one of them, there were a few more i know that left.
The biggest advice is choose your instructor wisely. I happened to have a person i thought was really nice, but at the end turned out to be a rather retard and an annoying person. When you go to do your fam flight, talk to a few people there, get their sense of the school, ask around about the school, what does the school's image portray on people who are involved in the industry. I asked around about the school that i liked at first, and everybody told me that the owner was arrogant, but i didn't take up for that crap, because i hadn't seen such trait in the owner. But listening to what the school has reputation wise is not that bad of an idea, i mean at the end i ended up switching anyway lol...
Do those and i think you should be set off well.
Good Luck buddy.
I'll answer both questions just in case either is what you asked.
In terms of choosing a school, it's a bit tricky, I agree. What i suggest is that you go and take up "FAM Flights" with all the schools that you seem to like, or at least the locals, and see how they are. If they're trying to suck up to you, you'll notice it in an instance. A true flight school is a place where you're treated in courteous manner; I learned that the hard way.
If you're switching schools, well i am experienced there too. I happened to switch schools and it was very positive. The atmosphere at the previous school as well as the mood seemed to be stressful, everybody was stressed out and did not seem to enjoy their work. It lead to bad service and at the end a loss of a rather good paying customer. I don't think i was one of them, there were a few more i know that left.
The biggest advice is choose your instructor wisely. I happened to have a person i thought was really nice, but at the end turned out to be a rather retard and an annoying person. When you go to do your fam flight, talk to a few people there, get their sense of the school, ask around about the school, what does the school's image portray on people who are involved in the industry. I asked around about the school that i liked at first, and everybody told me that the owner was arrogant, but i didn't take up for that crap, because i hadn't seen such trait in the owner. But listening to what the school has reputation wise is not that bad of an idea, i mean at the end i ended up switching anyway lol...
Do those and i think you should be set off well.
Good Luck buddy.
Start reading here:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#426_11
Hardest part is probably the MCM. The rest is pretty easy. Oh yeah, insurance - get ready to shell out $10,000 per year, if you can get the required coverage at all.
You're going to need at least one Cdn-reg aircraft, and at least a class 3 instructor to act as CFI. Be prepared to contract out your maintenance to an AMO, who will likely absorb any profit you happen to generate.
Most any financially successful FTU will also have it's own AMO in-house to keep costs down.
You do not want to start up an AMO at the same time as an FTU. Why not start up a charter outfit at the same time? 10 years and 10,000 pages later, you can start ops.
Many people buy shell (bankrupt) companies just for this paper.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#426_11
Hardest part is probably the MCM. The rest is pretty easy. Oh yeah, insurance - get ready to shell out $10,000 per year, if you can get the required coverage at all.
You're going to need at least one Cdn-reg aircraft, and at least a class 3 instructor to act as CFI. Be prepared to contract out your maintenance to an AMO, who will likely absorb any profit you happen to generate.
Most any financially successful FTU will also have it's own AMO in-house to keep costs down.
You do not want to start up an AMO at the same time as an FTU. Why not start up a charter outfit at the same time? 10 years and 10,000 pages later, you can start ops.
Many people buy shell (bankrupt) companies just for this paper.
Then why do people even begin to start from scratch new FTUnits and new charter outfits in this hole of a country we call Canada as so many have said.
It seems to me and here I go again right, that nobody who does not know what the hell they are talking about should even be given the right to start a new training unit or charter outfit if they have shit for brains and millions to waste. This is my impression and hey it's coming from helinas the guy that doesn't seem to know a whole lot and I appreciate all the remarks good but mostly bad from guys like yourselves that know more than me.
Canada is not the right place to do anything in aviation again unless you got millions to burn to make thousands.
I will never buy a PPC, never work for free, and always believe that something must be good in aviation right here in Canada, I hope.
It seems to me and here I go again right, that nobody who does not know what the hell they are talking about should even be given the right to start a new training unit or charter outfit if they have shit for brains and millions to waste. This is my impression and hey it's coming from helinas the guy that doesn't seem to know a whole lot and I appreciate all the remarks good but mostly bad from guys like yourselves that know more than me.
Canada is not the right place to do anything in aviation again unless you got millions to burn to make thousands.
I will never buy a PPC, never work for free, and always believe that something must be good in aviation right here in Canada, I hope.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but between the Transport insanity and the long winters, well, it would appear that you are learning.Canada is not the right place to do anything in aviation
Note that in the USA, no silly Operating Certificate is required for an FTU - all you need is an instructor's rating, and an aircraft (say a buck fifty) - that's all.
This insane Transport FTU OC nonsense has nothing to do with aviation safety, and everything to do with ATAC lobbying Transport to construct economic barriers to entry on behalf of it's members.
Buy a single-seat Pitts. Seriously.something must be good in aviation right here in Canada, I hope.
so you mean forget about the career thing getting paid like $20,000 a year flying a dash or king air but buy something small like you said and fly for fun.
I presently have 16 years airline seniority (working the ramp @ $21/hour) with AC with all the perks that come with it, I guess I shouldn't throw it away for a FO job, or should I?
I presently have 16 years airline seniority (working the ramp @ $21/hour) with AC with all the perks that come with it, I guess I shouldn't throw it away for a FO job, or should I?
Could you tell my why the system in Canada is worse than the USA?Hedley wrote:This insane Transport FTU OC nonsense has nothing to do with aviation safety, and everything to do with ATAC lobbying Transport to construct economic barriers to entry on behalf of it's members.
(and, for the sake of a fair discussion, could you explain it with a minimum of TC staff comments?)
I am genuinely interested. I think many here would be as well.
-Guy
I guess what he is saying that all these flight training units really began decades ago when it was alot easier to open one up. Now in today's world here in Canada of course it is impossible to open a new flight school as he sais that you guys in TC would give me the hardest time in the world to do this.
I think my idea for a new FTU before I got all the negative comments was to concentrate on a multi engine and multi engine instrument training with of course re-rides and anybody that wanted to build some time in very good multi aircraft with excellent interiors that included toys like garmin gps instruments, stormscopes with full autopilot, etc. you get the picture.
I have had enough of training and renting aircraft that look like a piece of shit and it seems that almost everybody in flight schools has them.
That's all that I wanted to get info but 2 percent only have something positive to say and the other 98 are totally negative.
so TC guy if you have something positive to say about getting an OC for a new FTU go for it, if you don't please keep quiet.
I think my idea for a new FTU before I got all the negative comments was to concentrate on a multi engine and multi engine instrument training with of course re-rides and anybody that wanted to build some time in very good multi aircraft with excellent interiors that included toys like garmin gps instruments, stormscopes with full autopilot, etc. you get the picture.
I have had enough of training and renting aircraft that look like a piece of shit and it seems that almost everybody in flight schools has them.
That's all that I wanted to get info but 2 percent only have something positive to say and the other 98 are totally negative.
so TC guy if you have something positive to say about getting an OC for a new FTU go for it, if you don't please keep quiet.
That is a subjective question - from your viewpoint, I'm sure it's a "better" system because of the extra bureaucratic overhead, which spells J-O-B S-E-C-U-R-I-T-Y.Could you tell my why the system in Canada is worse than the USA?
I'm astounded that this seems to be a "big secret", but ...
In the USA, if you are a CFI - not Chief Flight Instructor, but merely Certified Flight Instructor, which is equivalent to our class 4 or higher - and you want to instruct, you can purchase a buck fifty and start instructing.
See, the FAA figures that since you have an instructor's rating you should know how to instruct, and since the FAA issued the A&P/IA's qualifications, therefore he should probably know how to sign out a buck fifty.
No silly FTU OC required in the USA. Free enterprise is a big thing in the USA.
As compared to Canada, where big government is a big thing.
See, in Canada, Transport will issue a pilot an instructor's rating, and will issue an AME a licence, but Transport will say that without the overhead of an FTU OC, the instructor won't know how to instruct, and the AME won't know how to spin a wrench - despite the fact that Transport has previously qualified them both to do so - without another 10,000 pages of useless crap.
Clearly this is another nonsensical Monty Python sketch. And the reason why has nothing to do with safety, but rather the lobbying efforts by ATAC to increase the economic barriers to entry, to protect the financial interests of it's paying members.
If ATAC had it's way, freelance instructing (teaching owner on his aircraft) would be entirely illegal in Canada, all instructors would have to be associated (ie their pay skimmed by) an FTU. Frankly, it's only a matter of time before ATAC is successful in their efforts, IMHO.
An FTU does NOTHING to assure an increased quality of instruction or maintenance. Generally, freelance instructors are FAR more experienced than the new class 4's you find swarming at an FTU, and as a CFI of two different schools, I can assure you that the WORST maintained aircraft I have ever flown were commercially-registered, with lots of paper to keep the bureaucrats happy, but mechanically and electrically were in atrocious condition. If only aircraft could read all this paper that told them that they were in great condition, but alas, I have yet to find one that can.
Executive Summary: the whole Canadian FTU OC is yet another example of excessive socialist government overhead, and as usual the loser is the consumer, to whom are passed on all the extra goverment costs.
If you don't believe me, ask the FAA. Better yet, go down south and get your licences. That would make Transport happy.
The thing you have to keep in mind is that it isn't Transport's job to promote aviation - their job is to STOP people from practicing aviation without the right collection of pieces of paper.
The problem is that there is often a fundamental disconnect (vehmently denied by the bureaucrats, who have a vested interested in the paper) between the paper world, and the real world - and we're back to Monty Python again.
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desksgo
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The FAA, at the very least, tells me that they promote and regulate aviation, which may not be 100% perfect, but at least I can see the effort. Transport Canada just seems to go around kicking down people's sand castles.
I hate to report this TC Guy, but Hedley has it spot on. Having dealt with both organziations equally, along with aviators on both sides of the borders, I gotta tell you, your organization has an awful, awful, reputation. Which you might think is natural for any government regulator, but trust me, it shouldn't be to the extent where people get obstructed from doing business.
Please don't take this as an attack on your character, because I know there are some great people within your organization. It's just the collective beast that is TC that we're talking about here.
I hate to report this TC Guy, but Hedley has it spot on. Having dealt with both organziations equally, along with aviators on both sides of the borders, I gotta tell you, your organization has an awful, awful, reputation. Which you might think is natural for any government regulator, but trust me, it shouldn't be to the extent where people get obstructed from doing business.
Please don't take this as an attack on your character, because I know there are some great people within your organization. It's just the collective beast that is TC that we're talking about here.
I would strongly suggest that anyone considering flight training in Canada wait until after december, when the FAA/TCA licence reciprocity comes into effect.
See, after december, if you have an FAA ppl, you can get a (normal) Cdn ppl by getting a Cdn medical and writing a "differences" air law exam.
So, why would anybody flight train in Canada any more? The Cdn dollar is strong, and the flight training down south is cheap, and it's warm and sunny down there when it's cold and dark and snow and ice-covered up here.
I'm sure Transport would be quite happy if all flight training in Canada ceased, and all they had to do was issue people licences based on FAA ones.
We don't for example, bounce a King Air gear-up off the runway at Gatineau, then overshoot, and carelessly and recklessly with bent propellers and other, unknown damage fly over Ottawa to land at Ottawa international, as Transport Inspectors do, instead of landing immediately at Gatineau, as any prudent pilot would.
Thanks for coming out, Transport. You're a big help, and you set a great example.
See, after december, if you have an FAA ppl, you can get a (normal) Cdn ppl by getting a Cdn medical and writing a "differences" air law exam.
So, why would anybody flight train in Canada any more? The Cdn dollar is strong, and the flight training down south is cheap, and it's warm and sunny down there when it's cold and dark and snow and ice-covered up here.
I'm sure Transport would be quite happy if all flight training in Canada ceased, and all they had to do was issue people licences based on FAA ones.
I might mention that we still can't put up our airshow schedule on our website, because Transport Canada Inspectors phone up the airshow operators and threaten them that if they hire us, they won't get their SFOC's. As a result of this pressure, we do airshows outside of Canada, and the Transport Inspectors even phone up for foreign airshow operators, thousands of miles away, and tell them lies about us being "unsafe", despite the fact that our airshow performance record is impeccable.people get obstructed from doing business
We don't for example, bounce a King Air gear-up off the runway at Gatineau, then overshoot, and carelessly and recklessly with bent propellers and other, unknown damage fly over Ottawa to land at Ottawa international, as Transport Inspectors do, instead of landing immediately at Gatineau, as any prudent pilot would.
Thanks for coming out, Transport. You're a big help, and you set a great example.
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mikegtzg
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Hedley said:
They then indicated the flight school they chose was based on the FTU's Website. I suppose there possibly are other reasons like easier entry to Canada on student visa vs. training in the USA. And the FTU chosen has a strong track record with others from these countries.
Perhaps they are sugar coating there choice to justify there decision. Just as some people shopping for cars buy really ugly ones (Aveo, Echo, etc.) and say its cute.
"sorry to Aveo, Echo, and Passport owners...they still are ugly"
Surprisingly, I have talked to many foreign students from India, Africa, and the middle East. And the first reason for coming to Canada for flight training was a percieved higher standard. (spin training as one of the reasons for this perception)So, why would anybody flight train in Canada any more? The Cdn dollar is strong, and the flight training down south is cheap, and it's warm and sunny down there when it's cold and dark and snow and ice-covered up here.
They then indicated the flight school they chose was based on the FTU's Website. I suppose there possibly are other reasons like easier entry to Canada on student visa vs. training in the USA. And the FTU chosen has a strong track record with others from these countries.
Perhaps they are sugar coating there choice to justify there decision. Just as some people shopping for cars buy really ugly ones (Aveo, Echo, etc.) and say its cute.
"sorry to Aveo, Echo, and Passport owners...they still are ugly"
Well, it does sound that you are much happier with the American system, Hedley... looks like they are happy with you too.Hedley wrote:Hey, if someone wants to be in Manitoba instead of Florida during January and February, who am I to argue with the wisdom of their decision?
I have very little experience with the American system, but a great deal of experience with the Candian system. I have set up several flight schools, been the CFI of three FTU's (for over 10 years experience running the schools), and all of it dealing with TC.
Honestly, it was NEVER a problem. If there was something I had missed or done wrong, they would tell me, and I would fix it.
I have the job now of approving (some of) the new FTU applications in my region-- it is not rocket science. Is it more involved than the USA? From what has been said here, I guess so.
I really do have to say: with all of the TC bashing that goes on here... I feel less and less helpful. Visiting AvCan feels like beating my head against the wall sometimes.
Okay. I am feeling like you do not wish my input.helinas wrote:Thank you TC for nothing!
Amen!
Yessir!helinas wrote:so TC guy if you have something positive to say about getting an OC for a new FTU go for it, if you don't please keep quiet.
I will suggest that if you wish to get an FTU OC in Canada, you will have to deal with TC at some point. If you do not wish some free, friendly advice from me... thats fine.
I wish you luck... Hedley seems to have some answers for you.
*I will now keep quiet as requested*
-Guy
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Golden Flyer
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TC guy was just trying to answer your fucking question! Do you think the dude makes the rules? Helinas, your fucking ignorant!
"Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible"
Edward Vernon Rickenbacker
All Pilots & Prospective Pilots Should Have Read:
http://walter.freefuelforever.com
Walter Gilles
Emirates: B-777
Edward Vernon Rickenbacker
All Pilots & Prospective Pilots Should Have Read:
http://walter.freefuelforever.com
Walter Gilles
Emirates: B-777
I appreciate the support, GF.Golden Flyer wrote:TC guy was just trying to answer your fucking question! Do you think the dude makes the rules? Helinas, your fucking ignorant!
We had a talk in PM's and I gave him the advice (I think) he was looking for. It was a good, courteous discussion.
It's all good... I understand people are frustrated by our system sometimes-- so am I.
-Guy
From what I have heard it is not that hard to setup an FTU in Canada. Follow the guidelines and the process and away you go. I don't believe that TC has the ability to prevent someone from starting a business providing they have their ducks in a row. The only negative comment I have heard from people that have recently setup FTUs is that the process can take about 6 months.
I have heard that some people side step the FTU bureaucracy using the freelance route. So if you wanted to offer mutli-ifr renewals. Have a friend or spouse start a corporation, they buy a plane and then offer shares to those that want to train on it. The directors of the corp. would a very large number of shares. People that want to train or fly the plane buy 1 single common share for a small nominal price. They are now a part owner of the aircraft and have a per hour usage fee. Then you provide the training as a freelance instructor on the owner’s aircraft. I think this could work and I think it is all legal. Sort of like fractional ownership for training or time building.
Take a look at what this guy offers it may give you some ideas.
http://www.dsflight.com/eastcoast-ifr.html
Decide what you want out of this. Are you just looking for a way to get your flying fix at an affordable price? Perhaps you just keep your job and do the freelance thing as a way to offset the cost of owning a nice twin. Look hard at the margins of a FTU this alone may turn you off this idea.
I have heard that some people side step the FTU bureaucracy using the freelance route. So if you wanted to offer mutli-ifr renewals. Have a friend or spouse start a corporation, they buy a plane and then offer shares to those that want to train on it. The directors of the corp. would a very large number of shares. People that want to train or fly the plane buy 1 single common share for a small nominal price. They are now a part owner of the aircraft and have a per hour usage fee. Then you provide the training as a freelance instructor on the owner’s aircraft. I think this could work and I think it is all legal. Sort of like fractional ownership for training or time building.
Take a look at what this guy offers it may give you some ideas.
http://www.dsflight.com/eastcoast-ifr.html
Decide what you want out of this. Are you just looking for a way to get your flying fix at an affordable price? Perhaps you just keep your job and do the freelance thing as a way to offset the cost of owning a nice twin. Look hard at the margins of a FTU this alone may turn you off this idea.
