PPC ride on a navajo?

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:52 am

I will throw this question to guys that might know the answer as I am trying to find it under TC's website but having a hard time.

My question is when the applicant pilot is doing his/her ride on the navajo after receiving 6.5 hours (is this average)of training who sits where in the cockpit during the PPC ride? Does the applicant sit in the left seat and the D.O.T. examiner in the right seat and can the person that trained the applicant log the time (PPC ride flight time) as PIC where the person that trained the applicant for this PPC ride is not even a flight instructor or the chief pilot of the company that provided the navajo for initial training?

any input and info on this matter from trainers, DOT examiners, chief pilots would be appreciated. (LEGAL QUESTION)

helinas

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:01 am

when the applicant pilot is doing his/her ride on the navajo after receiving 6.5 hours (is this average)

No it isn't the average. In a 703 operation 4.0 hours dual is the minimum requirement for initial PPC. Most companies do the minimum...

here's the table for your reference.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/Regse ... 723a03.htm

who sits where in the cockpit during the PPC ride? Does the applicant sit in the left seat and the D.O.T. examiner in the right seat

It will depend on the situation... Single pilot PPC/2 pilot PPC, CCP/DOT... I have had a DOT sit in the back on a ride while me and a training captain did the flying, I have had a CCP ride on the right side and function as the other half of the crew, I haven't done a single pilot ride but I suppose it wouldn't matter where they sat in that case...

can the person that trained the applicant log the time (PPC ride flight time) as PIC

They are the PIC on dual training flights.

where the person that trained the applicant for this PPC ride is not even a flight instructor or the chief pilot of the company that provided the navajo for initial training?

Instructor ratings have very little to do with training in commercial ops. Nor is it a requirement to be the chief pilot. Experience and time on type/class is what is relevant.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... tm#723a_88

scroll down to "Training" and then look at "Training and Qualifications of Training Pilot"

any input and info on this matter from trainers, DOT examiners, chief pilots would be appreciated. (LEGAL QUESTION)

I am none of the above, hope it helps anyway.

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:51 am

thanks altiplano for the info, much appreciated.

This pilot was never employed by the commercial operator that did the training, he just got the PPC I guess for his personal use. The pilot that provided the training for the navajo PPC had 15 hours experience on the navajo himself and from the 15 hours about 7 was PIC. Could somebody with so little time on the navajo train somebody else for the PPC? And the person that trained the pilot logged the ride time PIC for himself and not the applicant that actually did the PPC as his name is located under the 2nd pilot/passenger category along with the DOT examiner.

Could the guy that trained the other guy falsely logged the time for himself?

so altiplano what you are saying is that this guy with 15 hours time on the navajo can train anybody else on the navajo?

This happend back in the early 90's so I am assuming the rules were about the same back then?

thank you altiplano for the info and if anybody else could comment on the above please do. I just can't figure out somebody with so little time train somebody else in order to get them ready for the ride.

thanks

helinas

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:07 pm

This guys was neither a training captain or the chief pilot that provided the training for the PPC and again he only had 15 hours experience on the ho. He had his normal commercial multi ifr ratings with about 350 hours total time.

thanks and any info if he was qualified to do this and log this time is appreciated.

thanks

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:40 pm

1 - Commercial operators can contract their training to others. It is listed in the standards what the requirements are but I'm not going to look those up for you.

2 -

Could somebody with so little time on the navajo train somebody else for the PPC?

I already answered that one... Look it up.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... tm#723a_88

scroll down to "Training" and then look at "Training and Qualifications of Training Pilot"

3 - PIC time. On a ride the guy being examined in a "captain" PPC is the PIC. I have seen on initial rides where the training captain has also logged PIC. But I don't know what the rules are... that is just what I have seen.

4 -

so altiplano what you are saying is that this guy with 15 hours time on the navajo can train anybody else on the navajo

Where did I ever state that? Did you even read my post? Did you look at the standards?

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:22 pm

If a pilot had lots of time on other light twins (C400 series, for example), and then did a PPC on a navajo and only had 7 hours on the ho, i don't see any reason why they wouldn't do a decent job of flight training. Most of it after all, is just IFR procedures, engine out procedures, and other emergencies. These procedures vary little among similar sized piston twins. I had a chief pilot that flew the larger a/c in the fleet, and only had a dozen hours or so on the C404, but he did much of the training on the a/c. And he was very thorough.

As for your other questions, for Single Pilot ride, candidate in left seat, examiner in the right. For 2 crew rides, examiner either sits as FO, or training pilot sits as FO while examiner sits in the back.

And yes, around 6 hours is average for initial in that type of aircraft. plus about 20 hours of ground training(including line indoc).

cheers
wp

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:41 pm

The "training pilot" in this case with the 7 hours pic on the ho only had 9 hours previous on the piper seminole when he did his muti engine training. He did not have experience on higher performance aircraft. So if I am understanding this right, the training pilot during the PPC ride can also log the time PIC?

altiplano no disrespect man, I did not say anything regarding that you said this or that. Thank you for the great info and my apologies if you misunderstood. I am not putting any words in your mouth.

This PPC was for his buddy which he knew with again about 10 hours on seminoles and then 15 hours on navajos which about 7 was PIC.

So basically this training pilot could train somebody for a PPC on the ho no matter what time he had on the navajo, as long as the training pilot had a PPC on it himself.

might be · Post by **might be** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:51 pm

I've been lucky to have done a few PPC's in the last 3 years.

First if the PA31 has six passenger seats (do not count the 2 front seats) the minimumis 3 hours of flight time and 7.5 hours ground school (not air time as well as all the company exams required by the ops manual.

If the PA31 has 8 passenger seats the minimum is 4 hours flight time and 12 hours ground school.

The trainer has to be approved by TC or be qualified under CARS ( A training captain in a 703 Operation must have at least a commefcial licence 500 hours totla time and 250 PIC on a twin with a current PPC on a PA31. sometimes for a start up thay will waive the PPC but the Trainer must have a lot of experience on a PA31 talk to the TC rep for the operation.

As for the flight test there are questions about CRM,PDM, OPs Manual references as well as SOP and check list (memory items E.T.C.. The person in the right seat can be another person who is qualified to fly the PA31 Holding a PPC or a PCC or the approved trainer.

The flight test consistes of an IFR (simulated takeoff) with resrictions and noise abatment a climb to a safe altitude steep turn left and right a clean stall, a dirty turnimg stall and approace to minimums with a single engine climg out a hold with 2 approaces one ILS (initial PPC) and one other.
An engine failure in the hold to an ILS and landing and a flap failure on the other landing.

You are marked on CRM PDM IFR and VFR procedures. and no an instructor rating has nothing to do with any 703, 4 , or 5 operation.

Any other questions PM me.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:42 pm

Yeah, that's right....i just looked at the source....3.0 hours flight training and 7.5 hrs ground for initial. I was looking at turbine #'s originally.

So, if the guy only had experience in seminoles, my opinion is that that's pretty dodgey....legal, but dodgey. I wouldn't want to learn from such and individual.

But whatever.....live by TC rules, and all's good, right????? (sarcastic).

later
wp

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:29 am

This whole things sounds really fishy. To get a PPC from a commercial operator you need training. And not any old line pilot can do the training.
the training pilot damn while should know what the regulations are that apply to the ride, and it mistifies me totally that they would want to log it?

So tell us, what is really going on here?

tired of the ground · Post by **tired of the ground** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:50 pm

I'm sorry that I don't know or remember the old ANO? (cars pre late 90's). But today unless you were getting a VFR only PPC (useless in a Navajo for charter work) the Training Captain must have an ATPL + PPC or 250 Multi PIC and 500 hours.

So Yes for a VFR PPC the 350 hour wonder that did your "PPC" should have logged PIC and you should have logged DUAL.

However, Since you were not employed by the company your PPC is invalid beause you must infact be employed by the company to get a PPC.

Ralliart · Post by **Ralliart** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:54 pm

Loosely connecting the dots here, forgive me if I'm wrong..........in regards to your previous posts about starting a twin engine time building flight school.........are you asking about minimum experience to give PPCs on a navajo thinking maybe you could qualify as that person with minimum experience to give the training and thus log the PIC time?

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:37 pm

Ralliart not at all am I asking this so I can log the time. This matter goes back to the early 90's with somebody that I am related to that did this when we had a ho operation. He basically kept alot of shit from me and now I am battling him legally.

I looked at his log book and saw that with only like 20 or 30 hours of twin time most of it seminole he gave his buddy a PPC on our ho and logged every hour PIC in his log book so he can butter it up for Air Ontario. I think my question was answered by him having to have at least 250 hours of twin time so he will have to answer that on a later date.

Regarding the multi flight school I was simply asking whether it is wise to start a FTU from scratch that will concentrate strictly on quality training, building time using quality airplanes and not the ones we use today at schools where the majority lets face it are not that great.
I am not trying to build time here.

any info would be great.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:32 pm

Back in the early '90s, everyone was still wrestling with the PPC thingee because they were still part of the old ANO's and most TC inspecors concentrated on the qualifications and training of the candidate and his/her performance during the checkride. Iif someone not fully qualified to do the training in fact did the training, well, things slip through the cracks. It was usually a finding on an audit report. TC may have slapped pee pees or levied fines or whatever, depending on the severity of the offence. Then againit could have been missed completely. Less likely today because everything is a bit more black and white.

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:32 pm

thank you oldtimer for the info, much appreciated.

so according to the early 90's ANO regulations this person that I am related to where both of us owned this navajo could have given his friend a PPC on the navajo where my relative and business partner only had about 20 hours experience on the navajo himself and total he had 30 hours on twins altogether?

And on the day of the PPC ride with the DOT examiner on board which his friend was getting checked on my relative business partner logged this flight time as PIC in his log book even though he was not getting checked out for the PPC but his friend was.

How can my relative and business partner log this time PIC during the ride that his friend applied for? And would you trust somebody with only 20 hours on a navajo to train you and get you ready for your PPC ride?

And one more thought before my head blows off tonight, this friend of his that trained on our navajo and received the training from my relative and business partner was never employed by our company and never flew for us. So from what I read above this PPC was not even a valid or legal one?

Oh, if my relative and business partner when he was receiving his training from our temporary chief pilot in order to obtain his PPC ended up first logging at as him being the 2nd pilot and our temporary chief pilot of course as the PIC because he trained him.
Now I see in his log book that my relative and former business partner I may add applied white out in the columns and put his name in the PIC column and put our temporary chief pilot back then in the 2nd pilot column.
I don't remember but if you make a mistake on a line in your log book aren't you supposed to draw a line through it and initial it and move on to the next one or can you use white out to correct the mistake unless my relative and former business partner was "altering" his log book to make it look like there is more twin PIC time.

And if a pilot is found to have doctored or altered their log book how is this looked upon by the pilots circle out there?

my two and a half cents.

If anybody has any light to shed on my issue please do. No fun and games anymore, just alot of B*&^ S^%$.

thank you for the time, much appreciated.

helinas

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:57 pm

what does the guy being your relative and buisness partner have to do with anything?

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:35 pm

Dust Devil,

you are right, what does this scum bag have anything to do with it. Disregard this post and let's move on to something else please, and I would like to thank everybody for the info that they have passed on.

good day