"Skilled Trades" recognition for AME's poll

Pat Richard · Post by **Pat Richard** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:36 am

Lets see how many out there(AME/apprentices) would be willing to petition for change(with name&license #) to the "unskilled" classification applied to aircraft maintenance workers in Canada.

onthelook · Post by **onthelook** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:45 pm

With all the training and hoops we have to jump threw for the TC gods to prove we are trained and skilled to get a license. then actively use that license to keep it valid for m2 of course.. How could we not be skilled workers.. Easy way to get it changed.. put all the civil servants that have the doings of changing the classification on a plane then let em chose who they want to prep it b4 the go for a flight.. some regular joe's off the street or an ame or 2 and some apprentices..

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:50 pm

Excellent. So when do we draw the line and decide there is interest? I see the forum that started all this is over 2000 hits, so how 2000 votes?

Pat Richard · Post by **Pat Richard** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:31 pm

There's 130ish hits on this thread so far, and only(thanks to those who did!) 18 votes?

C'mon people, i know everyone has an opinion on this(the other thread showed that), so log in and and sound off.

In any case, I think pointing this issue out to magazines/media/mp's etc would be worthwhile regardless what the response is here.

I think mass exposure is the ticket, if there is one, to get this issue addressed/rectified.

This site may or may not be the means required.

Stay tuned.....

On a more personal note - A big WOOHOO for Nicky Hayden/Honda team Repsol, 2006 Moto GP champions!!

Not an easy thing to beat Valentino Rossi. Great season!!

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:37 pm

I posted a quick note on verticalmag.com maintenance forums and if anyone know's of other sites then lets get the word out.

Really the first thing this will tell us is what the AME group thinks about themselves.

As I said over 2000 hits on the other post so there is no reason we can not get 2000 votes here.

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:16 am

And why should we not be classified as skilled?? Aircraft are becoming more and more complex all the time. I can remember 15 years ago while on course having to learn all about computer logic, which in those days seemed pretty complex to a simple guy like me. Our trade has come a long way from the old days when you were just a great mechanic.

nighthawk · Post by **nighthawk** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:09 am

Count me in .And the 15 other people i work with.

Heli-Wrench · Post by **Heli-Wrench** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:27 am

I could not agree more, I was shocked to find out that we were not already considered a skill occupation. With all the Feds out there flying on aircraft that we inspect and maintain you would think they would be the first people to call us skilled. Onthelook could not of said it better, with all the training and testing we have to do
how could we not be skilled workers.

Thanks Gli77 for posting the link on verticalmag.com, I would not have known about this poll or the move to contact our government about changing our status with labour Canada.

fmrc3ame · Post by **fmrc3ame** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:36 am

I don't know if this will be any help or not but you could open an online petition to see how far this can go. All that is required is an email address and you can sign the petition anonymously if you'd like. This would allow friends and family to become involved or you could leave it as an Industry signature only. Not sure how you'd want to word it but here is the link to the website http://www.thepetitionsite.com

ps I entered the poll so count me in

looproll · Post by **looproll** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:23 am

I am not an AME. Please explain why this skilled designation will benefit you.

fmrc3ame · Post by **fmrc3ame** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:19 am

I'm not an expert by any measure but a skilled trade designation would include some of the following.

creating a training standard throughout industry;
ensuring industry training keeps pace with advances in technology;
improving safety;
improving industry's ability to attract new employees; and
establishing a viable means to assess competency.

Not to mention a standard for wages

aero-singidunum · Post by **aero-singidunum** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:50 am

Fmrc3ame, lets start now petition!
Give me MoT address in China, i will send them a letter a teld them....
HOW ARE YOU

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:52 pm

Good question looproll I was waiting to see if anyone would bring that up. I do not know if being designated as a skilled trade will help wages at all. But it can't hurt. I was thinking that if I left work on Monday not recognized as a skilled trade and returned on Tuesday recognized as a skilled trade would it make any difference to the crappy employers out there?? I don't think so. In my opinion the only thing that is going to bring up wages is the age old supply and demand concept. Impose restrictions on who may actually work on an aircraft, and the skilled trade recognition may help that, and then I think wages will rise.

At any rate I see we are up to 36 votes and I am pretty sure there are more than 36 tech's on this site.

aero-singidunum · Post by **aero-singidunum** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:30 am

Now it is 39 votes, will get there

Norskman · Post by **Norskman** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:48 am

Before I vote, I would like to see proof that an AME is not a skilled trade. All I can find are things saying that it is.

http://www.apprenticetrades.ca/EN/displ ... cleID=1074
http://www.saskapprenticeship.ca/module ... files_main

Are you talking about trades that are Red Seal certified?
http://www.red-seal.ca/Site/trades/analist_e.htm
Skills Canada even lists Aircraft Maintenance in their skilled career profiles area.
http://www.skillscanada.com/en/youth/profiles/index.php

I'm confused as to this "skilled trade" designation. Please help me out!

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:28 pm

LOL.

Interesting posts Norskman! They certainly do contradict where we ended up on this topic.

I have heard it said before that AME's are not recognized as a skilled trade but never really cared too much. I went back and read through the other forum and it seems that Stan Kehoe first mentioned that we are not skilled trades so perhaps he has more information on this.

hoptwoit · Post by **hoptwoit** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:11 pm

For the moment I cannot confirm if the term "skilled Trade" is the correct representation of what is being discussed here.
That being said the fact is that the classification of the AME trade (skilled or otherwise) falls between the cracks of provincial and federal regulation. The AME trade is regulated by Transport Canada. They have set out certain requirements to obtain a license. The short list is;
1) Complete Transport Canada accredited basic training program.
2) Perform 70% of the tasks pertaining to the license applied for.
3) Carry out 4800 hours of employment.
4) Write and pass the CARs test

Apprenticeship \Ap*pren"tice*ship\, n.
1. The service or condition of an apprentice; the state in
which a person is gaining instruction in a trade or art,
under legal agreement.

Above is the Webster’s dictionary definition of Apprentice.
You will notice under #3 I did not say complete a 4 year apprenticeship. That is because when it comes to AMEs there is no such thing as an apprentice. Don't believe me ask Dave Dueck he teaches the CARs courses some of us may have attended.
An apprentice enters into a contract between the apprenticeship board the employer and the employee. AMEs sign no such contract.
This contract mandates the minimum pay rates for the apprentice based on a percentage of the journeyman wage. AMEs have no such wage guarantees.
This governing body that administrates the contract mandates a ratio between journeyman and apprentices. In the Heavy Equipment Tech trade for example the ratio of apprentices to journeyman is 1 to1. This ensures that the apprentice gets proper mentoring from the journeyman and learns the trade correctly. The AME has no such guidelines. I have seen many shops with 4 apprentices to 1 licensed AME.

There is also confusion when it comes to “Trade Certification” I have provided a link to HRDC the quote that is interesting here is “Trade certification for aircraft maintenance engineers is available, but voluntary, in Nunavut and the Northwest Territories.” I searched under “trade certification” and got a hit on the CAMC website but the tab marked “certification is under construction.
I was also looking at the CAMC website and could not find the College I went to on their list of accredited schools so where does that leave me. Where does that leave any of us?

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:41 pm

There seems to be a lot of titles and things in quotation marks and with respect to wages I dont think any of it makes a difference, or will make a difference.

I think to put simply we have licenced people and unlicenced people. I think if the pool of unlicenced people is reduced and/or strictly regulated then that will drive wages up. Going back to a supply and demand concept.

As hoptwoit pointed out there are shops with 4 apprentices to 1 ame. But in our field all an apprentice is, is an unlicened person who may, or may not know anything about aircraft.

How do you mandate an apprentice pay scale in aviation when that apprentice may be working at AC, MRO, Helicopters, GA or an FTU? Of all those categories there can be up to a $12/hour split.

hoptwoit · Post by **hoptwoit** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:15 am

How do you mandate an apprentice pay scale in aviation when that apprentice may be working at AC, MRO, Helicopters, GA or an FTU? Of all those categories there can be up to a $12/hour split.

Gli77 instead of asking more questions like that. Why don't you have a look at one of the apprenticeship agreements from another trade and see how they do it. Instead of me explaining it to you explain it to me.

gli77 · Post by **gli77** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:27 am

Because hoptwoit I dont think the regulation of apprentice wages is a good idea therefore I don't see why I would research someone elses idea. I will state an opinion, explain my opinion, listen to your opinion and support it or not, but not research your opinion.

As I stated earlier two of my classmates a decade ago started at AC for $21/hour and I started at $11/hour. But the company I started with and AC had very very little in common, and I was quite happy with the experience I would get at said company. I should also say that in 3 years time I had climbed to $22/hour while my classmates at AC had not moved very far.

Therefore it is my opinion that if more regulation is to be enforced it should not be with regards to wages, but with reagrds to who may work in the aircraft maintenance field.

Norskman · Post by **Norskman** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:12 am

Thanks for pointing this information out to me! I have failed to read the missing information, even on the sask apprenticeship web site. Electricians need to be working as an apprentice, just to be working in the field, and at 1:1. It looks like an Automotive service tech doesn't have to be a journeyman, but if you DO want to go that way, again 1:1.
AME? Nothing.

At least I am clear on what was being meant by skilled trade now. Thanks again. This is truly outrageous to find out.

To continue this discussion I would urge anyone else to use the forum @
http://www.avcanada.ca//forums2/viewtopic.php?p=236120

hoptwoit · Post by **hoptwoit** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:26 pm

Norskman, Thank you for reading and taking the time to research my post. I forgot to include the link to HRDC as I said I would so here it is. http://www23.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca/ch/e/docs/group_7315_1.asp The part I quoted is near the bottom under the heading Employment Requirements. Do you agree that we should seek proper accreditation for the AME. Don’t forget to vote. Thank you again for the question.

hoptwoit · Post by **hoptwoit** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:15 pm

I can’t quite figure out figure out what you are for Gli77. Do you want to be a regulated trade or not make up you mind. One minute you’re ready to sound the charge and the next fold up you tent and go home. I will once again endeavor to inform you of a few facts that seem to escape you.

There seems to be a lot of titles and things in quotation marks and with respect to wages I dont think any of it makes a difference, or will make a difference.

I have heard it said before that AME's are not recognized as a skilled trade but never really cared too much.

As someone who must work within such a highly regulated industry as aviation. one would think that you could grasp the importance of the definitions associated with a title or word. CARs thinks it so important that there is a section dedicated to it CARs 1.1 Interpretation.

The reason that the AME is technically classed as semi skilled is because there is no recognized apprenticeship and no certification. What we are talking about here is to include the AME as a Trade under the Apprenticeship, Trade and Occupation Certification Act.
1) If this happens then the apprentice time is recognized and certified.
2) The applicable trade board would be responsible to administrate the contract between the employer and the employee.
3) The wages of an apprentice would be regulated based on the progress of the apprentice and calculated as a percentage of the journeyman rate for that shop.
4) The apprentice to AME ratio would be regulated.
5) As a recognized trade the skills you have attained as an AME are recognized by other trades. I.e. An journeyman Automotive mechanic is automatically credited 2 years and 2 out 4 modules toward obtaining a Heavy Duty Technician journeyman status.

This is not my opinion. If you voted yes in this poll these would be requirements under the law.
If you took the time to look at a certified trade as I asked you would already know this and when Norskman asked his question you may have something more informed to say rather than” LOL” and “I have heard it said before that AME's are not recognized as a skilled trade but never really cared too much”. Surely you must realize that an outsider would see these statements as a lackluster attitude towards propelling the profession of AME forward as a trade. If you do want to move AMEs forward help us consistently. You posted on other sites about this poll which is great, but the first question asked on the topic you throw you’re hands up in the air. What is sought as the goal here, is to include the AME as a recognized certified trade under the “Apprenticeship, Trade and Occupation Certification Act”. If the AME is to be included as a trade under this act it must work within the framework of the Act. If you want to get an idea of what the resulting AME trade would look like, view a trade currently regulated by this act like an Automotive Mechanic. That is why I suggested you look it up.

Because hoptwoit I dont think the regulation of apprentice wages is a good idea therefore I don't see why I would research someone elses idea. I will state an opinion, explain my opinion, listen to your opinion and support it or not, but not research your opinion.

Once again this is not my opinion it would be the law and is the framework under which we would be regulated. This being the case do you wish to change you vote?

Norskman · Post by **Norskman** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:52 am

One last thing then, can you add a spot on the poll for non-ame's to vote?

Pat Richard · Post by **Pat Richard** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:36 am

Sorry, good idea, but it won't let me change the criteria. I think I have to restart the whole thing.

"Skilled Trades" recognition for AME's poll

Would you be willing to petition the appropriate government body for change to the "unskilled" status given to AME's/apprentices?

"Skilled Trades" recognition for AME's poll