VFR limits

SkyKnight · Post by **SkyKnight** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:36 pm

When it comes to flying VFR what r your limits on rain, vis, ceilings, controled/uncontroled airspace?? I know there r regs set in place, but what do u feel comfortable flying in?? I know i did fly once in 3 miles vis and 2000 ft agl ceilings from two uncontroled airports about 25 nm apart. I did feel abit unconfortable. Alot of the times im pretty good with reading weather and dont push it. Flying in marginal vfr weather has also helped improve my nav skills.

DiscoDashSeven · Post by **DiscoDashSeven** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:11 pm

Daytime's not too bad in low vis cause you can still see the ground. You need to exercise caution when flying NIGHT VFR in low vis with little ground light. For example, near a great lake. It can be as challenging as IFR. Remember JFK Jr? That was still VFR.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:17 pm

What DDS said is about right. I have flown in legal minimums enroute on a X-country in day VFR. It was not for the whole trip, but for about about 10 miles or so until I arrived at my destination. I have also flown circuits in minimum day VFR. It can be a little nerve wrecking at times. But my personal limits for night VFR are considerably higher, considering you can't see any ground, or may not even see the visibility dropping on you. You could find yourself well into the soup long after it was too late.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:34 pm

All very good points, especially about the night flying. Doing a MVFR night flight is a good way to kill yourself.

Skynight, Sounds like your fairly new at this game. If I were you I would up in a familar area in say 5 miles, get comfortable. then do 4 miles, 3 and so on, do a circuit in a mile and see what you think (have an instructor on board for this one). Get to know what your comfort level is, but don't rush into it. Also when flying into crappy weather, know where you are, where your going, and cross reference those instruments from time to time.

Cheers.

Always Moving · Post by **Always Moving** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:38 pm

Get an IFR ticket.
Then mess around if not go play russian roulette
Same game isn't?

raven54 · Post by **raven54** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:12 pm

The IFR is a good idea. I still don't understand how Night vfr in the north is considered vfr. On those black nights with no moon you're on the dials all the way.

Always Moving · Post by **Always Moving** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:19 pm

AND at night with no mooon and no light surface
AND over the water with no clouds(at night is the cherry... KENNDY)
AND in so many other situations that end up in lost of situation awareness....

SkyKnight · Post by **SkyKnight** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:02 pm

Day VFR is what i meant.
I dont have my night rating but soon it will all come, and yes i am new at this game. It is weird to hear how dangerous nvfr is when ifr's in the mix. Anyone read the story in the recent Aviation Safety Letter, freaky sh*t. The problem sometimes is that the airport i fly out of reports no METARS or TAFFS so its alot guessing in what the weather will end up doing sometimes.

Tango01 · Post by **Tango01** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:19 pm

SkyKnight. Set your limits high for now, and as you gain experience you can modify them. I'm not experienced at all, but I don't go with less than 5 miles day or night and 3000' AGL ceiling . Night, you want a moon and good reference lights. Also, getting you IFR is good, but it may not help you much, if your training was done in VMC (like most schools do) Students need exposure to IMC. Period.

T01

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:10 am

Sky....NVFR demands respect, reguardless of weather.

Night flying is very scenic, and fun. It offers some different challenges, which are a nice break from the routine. But, black hole night flying is the same as IMC, Your on the dials the whole time. I strongly recommend that you do not venture into it till you hold an IFR ticket, have some hours under your belt, and someone has shown you the ropes.

Cheers.

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:22 am

The problem with crappy wx is that you don't want to bet your life that it's going to stay the same. A front may be nearby. Are you going along the front, through the front or away from the front?

You want to have the "big wx picture" in mind. I always like to be flying from crappy wx to better wx (ie away from the front).

You want to learn about dewpoint spread. It tells the story. A narrow dewpoint spread with rain falling means get on the ground NOW. A narrow dewpoint spread with sun poking through holes means it's going to burn off soon.

Most importantly, when you're flying someplace, you always want to be at least one "what if" question away from the answer, "It's time to die".

For example, single-engine across the atlantic ocean. It's legal. If your engine fails (or more likely, one of the jury-rigged ferry tanks doesn't feed or vent properly) then "it's time to die", right? WRONG. Have an immersion suit, dingy, waterproof ELT strapped to your body, and hope you can get all the crap out when your upside down underneath the water.

For example, ..-running VFR. You need to be painfully aware of upslope and towers, and have a minimum altitude that you're willing to descend to. What do you do when you reach the minimum altitude? Die? Wrong answer. How about turn around? Uh oh, the weather has deteriorated behind us too, pushing us down even lower. What's the best choice here?

Now we come to something the shrinks call "framing bias". When pilots are faced with two choices, one involving a certain but survivable loss, and the other involving a range of outcomes from emerging unscathed to death, we pilots by our nature will always always always choose door number 2 and risk possible death. It is in our nature. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be where we were, after all.

In the scenario above, the best choice is to land - a precautionary approach. However, the ability to land a on an unimproved field has been bred out of the pilot population over many years, so most pilots end up
choosing door #2 and climbing up into cloud, which is rarely the best choice. Legality and a/c separation aside, the poor pilot is going to be stressed and pumped and needs to be a very experienced and competent IFR pilot to figure out a climbout procedure on the spot that's going to get him clear of terrain and in contact with ATC, and if he's such a good IFR pilot, why is he .. running in the first place? Well, it could be that there's a good reason he didn't want to take the aircraft into the clouds in the first place (eg icing) so it's still not a good choice now.

Most importantly, keep in mind that advice from the internet is almost always worth what you paid for it, and also keep in mind that Transport hates my guts, and probably considers me the most dangerous pilot in Canada right now, so you probably don't want to take advice from someone like me anyways

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:54 am

Hz2p :

Good advice, except for the TC bit, they are the very last concern you should have.

Why worry about a group of dishonest hypocrit's that in some cases would be better off on welfare instead of making life difficult for us?

I bet they would rather see the end of me and keep you as their favourite.

Cat

bigcanuck · Post by **bigcanuck** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:55 am

SkyNight never ever go flying because the other guy in the FSS is going. That is as big of mistake as I have ever had one friend make. Every one has so fare given you good advise on when not to fly. But if you do end up in the sh!t follow a road or a river my favorite is rail roads. They all go to civilization sooner or later. Just watch out for towers and power lines not all of them are marked on even the most up to date map. Its been a long time since I last used any of these tricks and I know they are well used by others, they are only to be used if you get yourself into a bad situation.( See first sentance). If you ever get lost a lake or other large body of water is a good place to get your bearings, no towers or power lines. Of course you have to be realy low to worry about that stuff.
Be safe not a satistic.

corn-shoot · Post by **corn-shoot** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:11 am

If my boss says fly, then I stay. If he says stay, kick the tires!