Approach ban clarification

thatdaveguy · Post by **thatdaveguy** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 1:48 pm

OK, I know this is obnoxious, but like half of the people in the aviation industry I do NOT understand.

At my airport...the visibility indicated on the CAP Chart for a circling NDB approach is 1 1/2 SM.

So what is the new real limit...and who does it apply to?

is it 1 1/4SM for 703, 704, 705s and 3/4SM for other...my coworker and I were scratching our heads trying to figure it out the other day.

CD · Post by CD » Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:59 pm

Here is a goto to ask for information/clarification:

Civil Aviation Communications Centre

2milefinal · Post by **2milefinal** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:07 pm

Cleared direct The CAP-GEN.

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:34 pm

I suspect that when we ever get direction from on high, it will be same as below Cap departures. Report them all and let TC sort it out.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:52 pm

To keep it simple, you need 75% of that value, to shoot an approach. Then there's always SVFR?

3H · Post by 3H » Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:55 pm

You can however get an Ops. Spec. that allows to only require 50% of CAP value.

gorgesailor · Post by **gorgesailor** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:45 pm

What 2MileFinal said... It's pretty expanatory to be honest. First new page has what many ops will be using... Flip it over and next you find those applicable to Ops Spec numbers... You should know whether or not your company has Ops Spec or not.

Cheers,

GS

highlander · Post by **highlander** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:54 am

So far we've had one or 2 days where this ban has been a problem. Saw a couple of people ask for SVFR instead.

Our Cap is 2 1/4......which I suspect is on the high side

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:04 pm

Has Transport closed the contact approach loophole yet?

Any day now, I expect to hear about a rule change requiring 3 miles vis for a contact

Apache64_ · Post by **Apache64_** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:08 pm

Can you conduct a contact approach, when the approach ban is in effect? Never even thought of that.

Cheers

Apache

thatdaveguy · Post by **thatdaveguy** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:29 pm

So does this approach ban cover ALL IFR aircraft, or is it just commercial operators? I have heard both.

2milefinal · Post by **2milefinal** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:39 pm

everyone gets to par-take in the fun

towbird · Post by **towbird** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:27 pm

Sorry 2milesfinal, but if you look directly in the car's, it's in the 700 section.

Only commercial operators are restricted with the approach ban. No private operator (604) or any private flying IFR who shouted approach only once in a while.

Stupid, I know but hey, it is TC we are talking about!?!

2milefinal · Post by **2milefinal** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:32 pm

OK i sit (with wine in hand) corrected
I have to trust you, I am not about to go digging into the CARs.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:57 pm

S.T.U.P.I.D!!!!!!!!!!!
Is that CLEAR enough for you?????

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:01 pm

How is safety served when pilots can not understand the rules?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:18 pm

Oh, it ain't the lack of understanding the rules. It's the lack of the mathematical skill required to apply them.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:49 pm

How did we manage in the north flying with nothing but an ADF and an Astro Compass generally the limits were 400 foot ceiling and one mile vis. if memory serves me correctly. I must have done a million ADF approaches and landed many times with nothing but flare pots on the snow at night.

And an ILS was 200 and a half.

So why do you need a degree in math and have to wade through a million rules just to land a fu.kin airplane with one hundred times better equipment than we had?

thatdaveguy · Post by **thatdaveguy** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:09 pm

Doc wrote:Oh, it ain't the lack of understanding the rules. It's the lack of the mathematical skill required to apply them.

You are really rude for a moderator.

Anyway, I'm not a pilot.

Siddley Hawker · Post by **Siddley Hawker** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 6:00 pm

Cat Driver wrote:How did we manage in the north flying with nothing but an ADF and an Astro Compass generally the limits were 400 foot ceiling and one mile vis. if memory serves me correctly. I must have done a million ADF approaches and landed many times with nothing but flare pots on the snow at night.

And an ILS was 200 and a half.

ILS used to be 300 and one, weren't it?

ATC was a lot more accommodating then. I remember going into YUL one nasty evening, being cleared the CatII ILS on 06L. We weren't Cat II equipped on the F-27, but accepted the approach anyway. The tower controller asked us what our alternate was in case of a missed approach. The co-pilot replied 06R. Never heard anything more about it.

Landing in ZV at night in the fog, you'd ask the tower controller if he could see the lights on the West taxiway. If he could, you were ok. Going into KL, the weather would mysteriously come up to 400 and 1 about an hour before arrival and go back down again after departure.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 6:36 pm

Yeh, how well I remember.

We used to practice zero zero landings by putting a map in the windshield and the other guy making sure the fuc.in thing did not touch down off the runway.

Being able to do that saved our asses a couple of times, once in Whitehorse with an engine feathered and basically zero zero and once in Resolute in a white out with a 50 knot 90 degree X/Wind, both times it was in a DC3, great old bird those things.

Here is a picture of the last one I flew last year...it was still painted in the Band of Brothers paint scheme.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ ... 010045.jpg

Cat

Siddley Hawker · Post by **Siddley Hawker** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 6:56 pm

Nice looking airplane Cat. Radar nose on her and -94 engines, going by the props. We had one like that, CF-ORD, that we got from a car manufacturer that shall remain anonymous.

We used to do that zero/zero trick with the F-27. We had a procedure in our ops manual that said "When landing in conditions of low ceiling, do not use more than approach flap." That way, you wouldn't balloon back into the overcast when you selected full flap.

Pratt X 3 · Post by **Pratt X 3** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:50 pm

Doc wrote:Oh, it ain't the lack of understanding the rules. It's the lack of the mathematical skill required to apply them.

Here's a couple of charts so you don't hurt yourself trying to do the math (especially since it appears to be that special government math...since when does 50% of 2600 = 1200?).

Table 1. Approach Ban - General (Subparts 700/720 of the CARs) (75%)

CAP Advisory Vis[sm RVR x100 ft] = Vis Reported[sm RVR x100 ft]
1/2 RVR 26 = 3/8 RVR 16
3/4 RVR 40 = 5/8 RVR 30
1 RVR 50 = 3/4 RVR 40
1-1/4 = 1 RVR 50
1-1/2 = 1-1/4 RVR 60
1-3/4 = 1-1/2 RVR >60
2 = 1-1/2 RVR >60
2-1/4 = 1-3/4 RVR >60
2-1/2 = 2 RVR >60
2-3/4 = 2-1/4 RVR >60
3 = 2-1/4 RVR >60

Table 2. Approach Ban – Ops Spec (Subparts 703/723, 704/724 or 705/725 of the CARs) (50%)

CAP Advisory Vis[sm RVR x100 ft] = Vis Reported[sm RVR x100 ft]
1/2 RVR 26 = 1/4 RVR 12
3/4 RVR 40 = 3/8 RVR 20
1 RVR 50 = 1/2 RVR 26
1-1/4 = 5/8 RVR 34
1-1/2 = 3/4 RVR 40
1-3/4 = 1 RVR 50
2 = 1 RVR 50
2-1/4 = 1-1/4 RVR 60
2-1/2 = 1-1/4 RVR >60
2-3/4 = 1-1/2 RVR >60
3 = 1-1/2 RVR >60

Full details can be found here. http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/comme ... AC0237.htm

Merry Christmas!

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:40 pm

thatdaveguy....piss off! Now THAT would be considered rude.

CD · Post by CD » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:39 am

towbird wrote:Sorry 2milesfinal, but if you look directly in the car's, it's in the 700 section.

Only commercial operators are restricted with the approach ban. No private operator (604) or any private flying IFR who shouted approach only once in a while.

Here is the General Operating & Flight Rules regulation that applies to all aircraft:

602.129 - Approach Ban - General