Lets say were in the North, and we are on the east coast. Its early morning and the night before we had a spell off bad freezing rain. Your in the small terminal doing your dispatch duties when a Light Twin aircraft calls over the company radio and askes, "What are the runway Conditions?" Dispatcher and other pilot in the terminal say, "We had freezing rain the night before and the taxiways are very slippery" As for our company restrictions we are not allowed to give runway information so we couldnt provide any. The light twin chews up the whole runway and overran the runway by say....250 feet and sits, stuck and in the snow.
Pilot of the light twin comes in the terminal and says to someone, "You guys are in Big trouble" And leaves it at that.
Where does this leave the dispatcher and pilot in the terminal that gave this driver this limited information?
What can you do?
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ClevelandSteamer
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It's the Pitts
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200hr Wonder
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You said nothing about the runway, so I think you would be safe.
Though stupid mindless litigation like this has lead to people not wanting to give information. You told him what you knew for fact: Freezing Rain last night, taxiways are slippery.
Before long all anyone will be able to get is "Sorry due to legal ramifications I am unable to provide you with that"
At least we do not give people millions of dollars for spilling coffee on them selves like in the USA.
Though stupid mindless litigation like this has lead to people not wanting to give information. You told him what you knew for fact: Freezing Rain last night, taxiways are slippery.
Before long all anyone will be able to get is "Sorry due to legal ramifications I am unable to provide you with that"
At least we do not give people millions of dollars for spilling coffee on them selves like in the USA.
Not enough info given....
Incident aircraft: One of your own, a competing commercial operator, or a private operator?
Dispatcher: Is this a "pilot-in-waiting", a licensed dispatcher, or a non-licensed dispatcher?
North and East: North and East of what, Hudson Bay, Labrador, Nunavut?
Airport: Did it have official runway reporting at any time in the day, or weather reporting?
As always, I'm guessing there are probably 3 or 4 sides to every story. The incident pilot most likely shot off their beak after a stressful situation from the sounds of it. Did they follow up after a cooling off period?
Incident aircraft: One of your own, a competing commercial operator, or a private operator?
Dispatcher: Is this a "pilot-in-waiting", a licensed dispatcher, or a non-licensed dispatcher?
North and East: North and East of what, Hudson Bay, Labrador, Nunavut?
Airport: Did it have official runway reporting at any time in the day, or weather reporting?
As always, I'm guessing there are probably 3 or 4 sides to every story. The incident pilot most likely shot off their beak after a stressful situation from the sounds of it. Did they follow up after a cooling off period?
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bob sacamano
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If this actually happened the same way it's coming across and forgive the following if I've got it wrong. Judgeing from the quotation marks you did not tell him that your company would not allow you to give him runway information. If so then by not giving a fellow pilot information that possibly affects his safety. You and your company are being a bunch of pricks. What is the harm in saying ya she's pretty slippery down here.
I'd bet the company is not giving out info in an effort to screw the compitition. Well mission accomplished.
While forced down on a lake in Northern Ontario a few years back to wait out the weather. I called one of the IFR boys and asked him if he could radio my base and let them know all was well and I would be on my way when the weather cleared. Only to have the dick tell me he could not because it was against company policy.
I think you got off pretty good. He could have dragged you over the counter and beat the piss out of you.
I'd bet the company is not giving out info in an effort to screw the compitition. Well mission accomplished.
While forced down on a lake in Northern Ontario a few years back to wait out the weather. I called one of the IFR boys and asked him if he could radio my base and let them know all was well and I would be on my way when the weather cleared. Only to have the dick tell me he could not because it was against company policy.
I think you got off pretty good. He could have dragged you over the counter and beat the piss out of you.
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Cat Driver
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The bottom line is the pilot is responsible for the safety of his airplane, there are thousands of places where pilots land without someone on the ground telling them if the surface is slippery or not.
However:
If you are in radio contact with a pilot who is planning on landing at the airport where you are and you know the runway is slippery due to freezing rain and you do not tell him then you are a sad example of a human being or are working for the same.
However:
If you are in radio contact with a pilot who is planning on landing at the airport where you are and you know the runway is slippery due to freezing rain and you do not tell him then you are a sad example of a human being or are working for the same.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
If the guy is too stupid to say "the runway has ice on it" Then he should stay away from the radio.
We don't give Pirep's so we can brag about what we have just been through. They are there so we can give the next guy a heads up.
If a guy landing behind me asks "hey whats the runway like"
I tell him what I see. I don't say "why don't you come down here and find out for yourself shithead." and that has nothing to do with being the PIC i'm already on the ground.
I'm guessing this is just some mickey mouse company rule. If it was a company airplane coming back from overnighting away from the base, would they have told him?
We don't give Pirep's so we can brag about what we have just been through. They are there so we can give the next guy a heads up.
If a guy landing behind me asks "hey whats the runway like"
I tell him what I see. I don't say "why don't you come down here and find out for yourself shithead." and that has nothing to do with being the PIC i'm already on the ground.
I'm guessing this is just some mickey mouse company rule. If it was a company airplane coming back from overnighting away from the base, would they have told him?
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ClevelandSteamer
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Shed some light
For all of those who said a few negative thigs I will shed a little bit more light on the situation.
1. There is no Competition out here, and in no way would I or a dispatcher withold information imperative to any pilot wishing to land.
2. We had alredy given him notice we had a terrible spell of freezing rain the night before, and that the taxiway was really slick.
3. Had he thought a little bit more past the taxiway onto the runway he would know that there is limited winter maitnence here and to expect very simililar, and in this case the same coditions.
4. He already knows its Slick, cause he has an OAT gauge that tells him the temp was below 0, and nothing has changed since this freezing rain.
5. Nobody had been on the runway and not this early either to give him notice of there were any bare patches.
6. He is PIC, he chose to land and took the responsibilty and accepted it.
Again, he was a Private Pilot, and there is no Competetion out here.
Couldnt he overshoot his plane rather then his mouth? It is a 3000ft runway. If a C46 can do it, I am sure he can too.
This pilot would have over shot the runway in any minut of the day had he been briefed or not.
1. There is no Competition out here, and in no way would I or a dispatcher withold information imperative to any pilot wishing to land.
2. We had alredy given him notice we had a terrible spell of freezing rain the night before, and that the taxiway was really slick.
3. Had he thought a little bit more past the taxiway onto the runway he would know that there is limited winter maitnence here and to expect very simililar, and in this case the same coditions.
4. He already knows its Slick, cause he has an OAT gauge that tells him the temp was below 0, and nothing has changed since this freezing rain.
5. Nobody had been on the runway and not this early either to give him notice of there were any bare patches.
6. He is PIC, he chose to land and took the responsibilty and accepted it.
Again, he was a Private Pilot, and there is no Competetion out here.
Couldnt he overshoot his plane rather then his mouth? It is a 3000ft runway. If a C46 can do it, I am sure he can too.
This pilot would have over shot the runway in any minut of the day had he been briefed or not.
Still weeerkin on it
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sky's the limit
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AEROMONKEY
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As per our company policy we aren't allowed to give ANY weather to pilots....and any observations given are just that....followed by....check the official weather.
Now shouldn't this pilot have checked the runway conditions before he left?
and i think he may have been a little confused when you said...the taxi ways are icy but didn't say that the runway was as well....there are many times here that the runways are perfectly clear but the taxi ways are skating rinks. The runway is worked on first and the taxiways are last priority.
I've heard the tower telling pilots "runway is clear and dry ...taxiways are very icy use caution."
Now shouldn't this pilot have checked the runway conditions before he left?
and i think he may have been a little confused when you said...the taxi ways are icy but didn't say that the runway was as well....there are many times here that the runways are perfectly clear but the taxi ways are skating rinks. The runway is worked on first and the taxiways are last priority.
I've heard the tower telling pilots "runway is clear and dry ...taxiways are very icy use caution."
I think this hits the nail on the head - if that was the wording used then the implication was that there was freezing rain which resulted in the taxiways being very slippery. The failure to mention the runway implied that there was no issue with it.AEROMONKEY wrote:..and i think he may have been a little confused when you said...the taxi ways are icy but didn't say that the runway was as well....there are many times here that the runways are perfectly clear but the taxi ways are skating rinks. The runway is worked on first and the taxiways are last priority.
I've heard the tower telling pilots "runway is clear and dry ...taxiways are very icy use caution."
Again, CS said no one had been out on the runway. And with limited or no maintenance for the runway, how would it be any different than the taxiway. If someone told me that my wings were frosty, I'd assume the tail was covered as well. This is on top of the fact that it is very easy to tell when a runway is bare and dry or not. I can understand how the pilot would be mad. If I'd just sunk my plane at the end of the runway I'd be a little cheesed as well. Bottom line is that you told him what you knew and it's his responsibility after that. PIC plain and simple.
Maybe I'm a bit of a cynic, but it still seems a bit fishy....
How often do you hear of a "private pilot" calling on a company dispatch frequency? Methinks everyone involved knew each other, and information was held back or not communicated very well resulting in possibly a poorly made decision.
If there was a moose on the runway, would you have communicated that "runway report"?
BTW, did this occur in Northern Manitoba?
How often do you hear of a "private pilot" calling on a company dispatch frequency? Methinks everyone involved knew each other, and information was held back or not communicated very well resulting in possibly a poorly made decision.
If there was a moose on the runway, would you have communicated that "runway report"?
BTW, did this occur in Northern Manitoba?
You ought to be ashamed of yourself, and your company. You should never withhold information which affects the safety of the operation of an aircraft ... unless it's a Transport King Airour company restrictions we are not allowed to give runway information so we couldnt provide any
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ClevelandSteamer
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PIC PIC PIC
Any Pilot flying with the infomation given should expect an Iced runway. Nobody here new the conditions, what we did know was the taxi way was iced up like a rink. The pilot flying knows the winter conditions here as he comes in here and there with his light twin.
You read company manuals im sure of hundres of outfits in the north and in the south and you will see that they also will ask dispatcher/pilots not to give runway information. Not to screw with pilots but as a liabiltiy.
Any pilot who keeps vital infomation of an iced runway is an idiot and shoud be burnt, that I agree, but nobody had been on the runway yet for inspection.
You read company manuals im sure of hundres of outfits in the north and in the south and you will see that they also will ask dispatcher/pilots not to give runway information. Not to screw with pilots but as a liabiltiy.
Any pilot who keeps vital infomation of an iced runway is an idiot and shoud be burnt, that I agree, but nobody had been on the runway yet for inspection.
Still weeerkin on it
*yawn*
He won't be able to prove you said anything... So depending on how you and your monopoly of a company plays defense, they may or may not get away with it, "our sops, say don't say anything, but we said something anyways..." lol....
How could he sue, if you had even said, "i wouldn't land here..." Any reference to the runway?? If he tries and crashes, how can he sue???
Whatever, if you can sleep at night knowing and deluding yourself into thinking that you did the right call over the radio, good for you. Lots of the posters above, obviously, would have an issue with what happened
He won't be able to prove you said anything... So depending on how you and your monopoly of a company plays defense, they may or may not get away with it, "our sops, say don't say anything, but we said something anyways..." lol....
How could he sue, if you had even said, "i wouldn't land here..." Any reference to the runway?? If he tries and crashes, how can he sue???
Whatever, if you can sleep at night knowing and deluding yourself into thinking that you did the right call over the radio, good for you. Lots of the posters above, obviously, would have an issue with what happened
Lol, so so true.....If there was a moose on the runway, would you have communicated that "runway report"?
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Bookem Lou
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I worked for a company a couple of years ago that ran into this very issue. Company A calls up Company B and asks how's such and such strip doing today. We replied well the strip is very muddy as it has been raining the last few day but our Caravan has managed to get in and out without too much problem. Well lo and behold a Bandeirante shows up at said airstrip, lands, and tears the shit out of both of its props trying to get airborne again. After a legal shitstorm, which fortunately resulted in Company B being found not liable, dispatchers were not allowed to give strip conditions. Company pilots in the area could tell an inbound aircraft what was going on and what the runway was like if they had just been there but that was it. The dispatcher told the pilot what he or she knew plain and simple. If it was me and I hadn't been out on the runway I might have added that fact but I don't think it was up to me to guess what the runway half a mile in front of me or 10 miles away was like. At some point like Cat said, this has to be the responsibility of the pilot.
Also, unless this pilot floated down the runway for more than half its length, he should have gone around even if he had touched and found he had no braking ability. I've been in that situation a few times and yet to put one in the ditch.
As none of us except for one person here was there, its all speculation on what really happened. I think the pilot should and will have to step up to the plate and take responsibility but my opinion counts for nothing. I'd be interested to find out how this story ends up as it may affect a lot more than just the company and individual involved. As you know, McDonalds has to warn customers now that their coffee may be hot.
Also, unless this pilot floated down the runway for more than half its length, he should have gone around even if he had touched and found he had no braking ability. I've been in that situation a few times and yet to put one in the ditch.
As none of us except for one person here was there, its all speculation on what really happened. I think the pilot should and will have to step up to the plate and take responsibility but my opinion counts for nothing. I'd be interested to find out how this story ends up as it may affect a lot more than just the company and individual involved. As you know, McDonalds has to warn customers now that their coffee may be hot.
