Hope i'm wrong...

[F/O Crunch]

Hate to be the guy to perpetuate a rumour, but i'm hearing one about a certain local ottawa college pro-pilot program being tought by a private pilot. If anyone can clear this one up we'd love to hear form you! I think if I was a parent about to drop 50 grand on my kids' cpl/mifr I'd get the skinny on these kinds of 'minor' details. As I said I'm not one to cause trouble and i'm not trying to... I just think this one's better discussed than ignored.
Heads are gonna roll!! (Probably mine... )

[Pete]

Whats with the labelling? I know a private pilot with 5000 hours and tonnes of time on floats/bush time, Id personally rather learn the basics from him then the commercial class 4's/3's you usually get at a flight school. Oh but his license says PA and not CA therefore hes not good enough. A rumour is a rumour, leave them at the door and fogettaboutit.

[Hoov]

wish my mom would invest 50k in me...

[Hedley]

Probably before you were born, FTU's were using non-pilots (or low-time pilots) to teach ground school. This is perfectly legal and normal, even today. See:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#406_24

For example, to teach weather to a bunch of newbies, you don't need a grizzled airline pilot with 60,000 hours - a trained meteorlogist would make a very good ground instructor.

Similarly, to teach engines, an AME would be a perfect ground instructor, even if he hates to fly.

Regulations? How about an attorney?

As far as ab initio flight instruction goes, your instructor may be a class 4 with 250TT or a class 1 with 1000TT. Both are legally qualified to flight instruct (shrug).

[F/O Crunch]

Well you make a good point Pete. I appreciate everyone's insight and experience regardless of what their licence says... But just because you know a private pilot with 5000 hrs doesn't make this particular case legitamite. We're talking about a big juicy fancy PROFESSIONAL pilot program. I'm sure I could teach grade 9 geography but they still won't let me. Get my point? Its important to know what going on on the inside. We all know you can get to commercial mifr with significantly LESS than 50G off the aviation college road. I think if I were anyone i'd take my money that way, rather than spending a rediculous amount of money on the mystery box. Anyway, I guet your point and i'm just making mine.
You're right, WHAT do those class 3/4's know anyway eh???

[Cat Driver]

" WHAT do those class 3/4's know anyway eh??? "

Very little actuallly.

[Hedley]

big juicy fancy PROFESSIONAL pilot program

Not sure I understand the difference. Regardless of how you do it (puppy mill or mom&pop FTU) at the end of it, you've got 200 hours and licence with the ink still wet on it that says commercial and group 1 IFR.

At which point, you are referred to as a "200 hr wonder" and are considered by industry to know absolutely nothing useful, except after some additional training, how to work the ramp.

You can spend $20k or $60k to get there. You can spend $20k or $60k on a Honda Civic, too.

[F/O Crunch]

Thanks for proving my point Hed.

[CD]

Hate to be the guy to perpetuate a rumour, but i'm hearing one about a certain local ottawa college pro-pilot program being tought by a private pilot....

Well, here is a link to one private pilot that I wouldn't mind getting few lessons from...

Mind you, I most likely couldn't afford his rates...

[Hedley]

Yeah, don't get too hung up on paper.

It is not always true that an ATPL knows more and is a better pilot than a CPL who knows more and is a better pilot than a PPL.

Similarly, a 10,000TT pilot is not always more knowledgeable and better than a 5,000TT pilot, and a 5,000TT hour pilot is not always knowledgeable and better than a 1,000TT pilot.

Most people think both of the above are true, but unfortunately, life is not always that simple. Some of the worst pilots I know are the most qualified and have the most experience ... they might have 500 hours, 40 times over. Some of the best pilots I know don't have any pieces of paper at all (shrug).

Remember, no one has taught aircraft to read yet.

"All generalizations are wrong, including this one"

[Walker]

Hate to be the guy to perpetuate a rumour, but i'm hearing one about a certain local ottawa college pro-pilot program being tought by a private pilot....

Well, here is a link to one private pilot that I wouldn't mind getting few lessons from...

Mind you, I most likely couldn't afford his rates...

Agreed,

Chester; Im relatively new to this whole industry (only a few years in and a lowly Class 4.) When I first started I had no idea about anything related to this industry and as such had a very similar reaction to things as you have. However after seeing how things are done on a day to day basis, I have to say so long as the information and teaching style of the person involved in the program under question is relevant than why should the government certification of said individual matter. I may well be a licensed instructor and legal in every sense of the world but id be lying through my teeth if I told you Im a better “teacher” than many of the people who’ve held a PPL for the last 30 years. One of the most knowledgeable people iv ever flown with has only ever held a PPL with a G3 instrument rating. The best human factors course I ever sat in on was taught by a flight surgeon who doesn’t have an hr to his name.
Furthermore if it is an FTU that is teaching said program I guarantee you there is a CFI somewhere in the organization and it is the CFIs job to ensure that all people giving instruction are “qualified” so the fellow who presently holds a PPL may not be signing the solo recommendation at the end of the day but that’s not to say that they are any more or less able to identify deficiencies and convey a prescription to remedy said deficiencies any better than someone holding an IR.

Furthermore often times many “senior” pilots encounter medical issues later in life and as such have to hand in their Class 1 medical. As a result they may be relegated to a PPL or even sometimes a PPL with the qualification that there must be someone capable of landing the aircraft onboard at all times. These people are often some of the best pilots left (they didn’t get that old by being incompetent.) So there are many possible reasons for the situation you have described, but just because someone doesn’t hold a license doesn’t mean they don’t have something valid to share.

[Brewguy]

I know 16 year old Air Cadet Flight Sergeants who have more teaching experience; and who teach a better ground school than some "instructors"...

I guess the bottom line is that if the college (and the CFI of the FTU that does the training for that college) think that the person is qualified to teach the ground school - then that's enough.

If you have concerns, by all means don't have your parents drop that money into the school, and go do something else. Maybe take some form of business program at school instead .... and be taught 'business' by people who have never owned or run one.

p.s. Ever think that maybe this instructor is an older person, who very well may have had an ATPL or Class 1 instructor rating ... but have let that license lapse back into a PPL? Not everyone who has flown professionally chooses to maintain that level of license for their entire life. Heck, ex-Air Force types still have to go get an actual civvy license when they retire - but I'm sure they have nothing to teach you either.

[cyyz]

How does he sign you off to go write the PPL or CPL exams??

[Brewguy]

How does he sign you off to go write the PPL or CPL exams??

I'm not sure exactly what you are looking for here.

Per the link that Headley provided earlier in this thread...
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#406_24
...Anyone can be Appointed as a Ground Instructor IAW CAR 406.24.

As for the letter of recommendation...

(3) To be eligible to write the examination required for the issue of a permit, licence or rating, the candidate shall produce the following letter of recommendation dated within 60 days prior to the date of the written examination:

(a) an applicant for a Pilot Permit - Gyroplane, Private Pilot Licence, or Commercial Pilot Licence shall provide a letter of recommendation from the Flight Training Unit or from the flight instructor who is responsible for the training of the applicant, stating that the applicant has completed the ground school instruction, and has reached a sufficient level of knowledge to write the examination;

The requirement is for it to come from the FTU or from your instructor. Any authorized person at the FTU can sign this letter ... including their appointed ground instructors.

p.s. cyyz ... stop trolling!

Please DO NOT FEED the Troll

[F/O Crunch]

Once again I hate to say (although i'm not surprised) how most of you have missed the point. I don't need to read some anonymous persons' 4 sentence life lesson on an internet forum to understand how qulification can fall way short of experience. This topic is meant to touch the issue of the lack of awareness of the poor fella about to go more broke then the rest of us to be enrolled in a training program that sets itself apart from the rest of the 'lower class' FTUs. The FACT is... you can bet that all of the students in the program have no damn clue who is going to teach them and can't differentiate the qualified genius from the unqualified genius. If everyone had a 10,000TT ole' buddy they could trust to teach the ways they wouldn't pay a giant load of money to learn. The experienced business executive sending his kid to a university commerce program TRUSTS the integrety of the structured curriculum... Because he dosn't KNOW the 16 year old air cadet flight sergeant himself. Obviously the most recent author of any forum is always the smartest.. so can we all stop trying to outwit eachother for a second and stick to the point?? Who here KNOWS about the quality and legitimacy of THIS program?...

[Cat Driver]

Chester, you started with this.

" Hate to be the guy to perpetuate a rumour, but i'm hearing one about a certain local ottawa college pro-pilot program being tought by a private pilot. "

I am a private pilot, and I do not have a flight instructors rating, if I were teaching ground school at one of those whiz bang schools do you think that would degrade the program?

[angry inch]

Yo' Chester,
Has this "individual" produced any "graduates" yet? If so, why not ask them what they thought? I was tought my entire CPL by a guy who was about a year ahead of me (regarding flight experience). I did very well on the Flight test & written exams, but it's like Hedley said... at that point I still Knew fu@$ all. The fresh CPL is a license to go out & get a job to start learning from industry professionals. Nobody, from A/C, to the smallest of bush operators gives a shit who your instructor was or what your "Diploma Program" grades were...
It's only in the best interests of the FTU to "pump 'em through" with solid passing marks as a means of good marketing if nothing else. Also, everyone who holds that CPL had to acheive a decent standard in order to get it...

[Brewguy]

Ok Chester, to answer your specific question - I have no clue if this rumour is true or not, and since nobody else here has provided you with a definitive answer either - it's probably safe to assume that nobody who has read this post knows or cares.

Why not get off your backside and phone the college yourself if you're so concerned? Go ahead and, as a prospective customer/student, ask them to provide you with a breakdown of all of the various instructors qualifications.

Most college students do not know (nor is it necessary for them to know) about the exact qualifications of their profs & instructors. Colleges (in the province of Ontario) are approved by the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities. And Flight Training Units in Canada are approved by Transport Canada. Generally speaking, as college programs fall under both, this means that the people teaching you are fully qualified to do so.

So unfortunately Chester, I believe that it is you who are missing the point. If you honestly think that a college program is so special, that its instructors should be extraordinarily qualified to produce some sort of super-pilot, then pal - are you in for a rude awakening if/when you graduate and join the ranks of this industry.

Good luck to you kid - you'll need it.

Now go do some actual research on the topic for yourself, instead of thinking that the internet will provide easy answers for you.

[F/O Crunch]

Well dudes, I'm warming up to your thoughts... I guess it just kinda hit me harder at the time when i heard this. I'm sparing details here but i was interested in everyone's opinion, wasn't looking to get my ass kicked either lol. I just haven't met someone who's been able to justify fronting 50 grand for all that, and the guy who does is gettin' punk'd. It's been mention earlier in this thread that you end up worthless like everyone else with the same peice of paper.... why not buy the $20K civic?
For the record, its not me who thinks extra-ordinary instructors pump out super-pilots in college programs... Sounds like a great way to make people think its worth the 50 grand though. But whatever, i'm just a kid...
Speaking of rude awakenings.. I need to fly for a living tomorrow, g'night folks.

[Walker]

If I could do things over again AND assuming I was willing to pay ~$60,000 I would not choose the “flight college” option for a number of reasons that could be debated (which I will not do here.) Rather I would take that money and:
Find someone in the same situation (with the same $$) whom I REALLY got along well with; combined purchase (and finance) a reliable IFR-able light single with long range tanks with say 1000 hrs left on the engine. I would then take said AC and find an experienced instructor for the two of us AND an experienced AME (whom would give us a crash bang course on maintenance.) I would then rattle off the PPL and single engine IFR as fast as I humanly could, I would find a good insurance company, buy some spare parts, some camping equipment, a raft, A GPS, a laptop, a satellite phone with data, a good camera; and for the next year burn off those 1000 hrs flying around the globe. Probably starting off to south America, then back up (stretching our legs on our own turf to say,) then across the pond to Europe, down through Africa, up through Africa into the middle east, maybe back up to Europe for a bit, into Eurasia, then Asia then island hop to New Zealand, the Philippines etc…(Im sure there are islands to get fuel along the way) then back up through Asia again across through Alaska etc… All the while taking a few lessons here and there from instructors around the world to keep honing our skills and to make sure we didn’t pick up any bad habits. Then do the CPL, put a new engine in the bird and sell her. The benefits :you will have more exposure of training than you could ever hope to elsewhere, you will meet SO many people who will end up being invaluable in later years, you will have a trip you will never forget and be unlikely to be able to ever repeat, you will have FAR more practical experience than a 200 hr college program graduate. And you will see everything there is to see; from having your maintenance done at some fancy US FBO Jet Center like Banyan Air or Signature; to Having to patch together something on some little garbage strip off the Ivory coast until you can get to a city with a “real” mechanic. To survive you would need the right attitude and a bit of luck.
Any who I suspect at the end of the day $$ would be about the same (remember you don’t spend $70,000 on the air plane, you finance the bloody thing and resell it so the cost of purchase is only the financing charges.) And I guarantee finding a job after THAT would be zero in comparable effort. Hell keep a journal send it to a few flying magazines and your going to have no problem getting a job in Canada or anywhere else for that matter, the Multi can come after…
-my $0.0025

[Hedley]

why not buy the $20K civic?

You've convinced me - why don't you?

P.S. As Clunk said - don't waste your time getting married, either - just find a woman you hate, and give her a house!

[jjal]

" WHAT do those class 3/4's know anyway eh??? "

Very little actuallly.

If I had a class 4 IR with my, say, 8800 hours total time (bush, 704's, etc.) would it mean I know "very little" just because I chose to teach what I love to do later in my career? I would think I would be a very qualified and experienced instructor with a lot to offer a new pilot.

I see your point with the 300-hour-just-graduated instructor - they could know very little or they could be a fairly good instructor (to a point, obviously), but don't lead people who are in their training stage to assume that all class 3/4's know very little.

[Cat Driver]

If I had a class 4 IR with my, say, 8800 hours total time (bush, 704's, etc.) would it mean I know "very little" just because I chose to teach what I love to do later in my career? I would think I would be a very qualified and experienced instructor with a lot to offer a new pilot.

I see your point with the 300-hour-just-graduated instructor - they could know very little or they could be a fairly good instructor (to a point, obviously), but don't lead people who are in their training stage to assume that all class 3/4's know very little.

Excellent point, I should have been a little more clear in my comment and noted class 4 who have just started flying as commercial pilots and instructing is their first job.

It would be interesting to see how many high time pilots go through the expense of getting a class 4 to teach because they love teaching.

High time pilots can teach the more advanced stuff without going through the class 4 route, however if teaching the PPL and other licenses is what you want to do then the class 4 is the only way you can do it.

Gotta really be careful in this group not to offend someone.

[niwre]

Anybody can read out of a book, a lesson plan or off a slide. Flight expirence be damned. If you sound like a tool and it looks like you dont want to be there the knowlegde your students retain will reflect this. Now if you are one of these so called 200 hr wonders but have good class room presence and it looks like you are enjoying your self then you students might feel more engaged. They marks will also reflect this.

[youngflier]

hahaha.... hahahahaha thats all i have to say