Grande Prairie Accident

Dave T · Post by **Dave T** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:46 pm

A homebuilt, forget the exact type flipped over on runway 30 this afternoon. Not sure if it was during the take off or the landing. ELT was going off and it was sitting upside down on the edge of the runway. We took off shortly after. Just wondering if anyone knows the outcome and if the guy was okay?

Out of Control · Post by **Out of Control** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:44 pm

I was about to take off when this happened. Everyone was ok according to YQU FSS. From what they told me is the gear collapsed on landing

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:33 am

Luckily for the pilot there was no post crash fire...unluckily YQU has no CFR on the field so it apparently took some time for a rescue crew to arrive.

looproll · Post by **looproll** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:07 am

Oh damn, I hope this was not the Cozy! Beautiful a/c.

Did you see it? did it look like this:

linecrew · Post by **linecrew** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:16 am

looproll wrote:Oh damn, I hope this was not the Cozy!

Yes it was.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:11 pm

Story i heard was that the nose ended up on the pavement, the plane went off the side, hit a snow bank and flipped. One wing torn off. Terrible. Poor Merlo is 74 years old and spent 11 years building that thing. Don't know if he'll have the heart to fix it. Physically sounds like he got out of it fine.

It was a beautifully built Cozy Mark IV.

DA900 · Post by **DA900** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:07 pm

co-joe wrote:Luckily for the pilot there was no post crash fire...unluckily YQU has no CFR on the field so it apparently took some time for a rescue crew to arrive.

Boy that surprises me. I would think a field that busy would have CFR at the field especially since both Jazz and Westjet operating out of there, but I guess these so called airport authorities are more interested in collecting fees then safety. Just my 2 cents

Dave T · Post by **Dave T** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:59 pm

When I think about it I thought that larger jets were almost required to have fire crews on the field but Westjet and Jazz go into YQU all the time. The guy was lucky there was no fire, it was atleast several minutes before anybody was out to help him.

broompusher · Post by **broompusher** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:05 pm

We were just starting up when he crashed. It's amazing that he was ok. I watched the crash....pretty unbelievable.

On the topic of response time by the Grande Prairie Airport Authority.....DISGUSTING! It was 7 mins before anyone even went out to the aircraft to see if he was ok or even alive! It was a total of close to 15min before Fire Rescue arrived on scene. Had there been a fire the pilot would have burned alive! There is no reason that with the amount of volume and size of aircraft that service CYQU that there isn't emergency crew based on the field! If they need to raise landing fees to pay for it or raise the county taxes then so be it.

You can't put a price on human life.

cloudcounter · Post by **cloudcounter** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:13 pm

Amen.

broompusher wrote:..You can't put a price on human life.

CD · Post by CD » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:26 pm

broompusher wrote:You can't put a price on human life.

Oh, but in this day and age, you most certainly can...

Human life value calculator
MetLife's Human Life Value Calculator
Airline Safety's Price Tag
Value of human life now $3 million
etc., ect...

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:59 pm

I'm looking in my CFS and can't find where they say what Crash Fire Rescue is even available. CFR isn't even in the glossary so I'm just going on what I was told but apparently YQU has nothing on the field. Hard to believe that an airport seing this much sched traffic not to mention the charter traffic has no fire department presence on site.

Just don't crash there I guess???

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:27 pm

I've over nighted in YQU quite a few times. If memory serves the nearest firehall is downtown, a ridiculously long time and distance away from the airport in an emergency.

CD · Post by CD » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:57 pm

Grande Prairie was briefly covered by CAR 308 Aircraft Emergency Intervention at Airports, which required, in part:

* A communication and alerting system.
* A vehicle capable of delivering 2,400 litres of firefighting foam and 135 kilograms of dry chemical extinguisher.
* A firm five-minute response time from the time the alarm is sounded to the time the vehicle reaches the mid-point of the furthest runway, for either onsite or offsite aircraft emergency intervention.
* A signed agreement with any offsite community-based provider of emergency response services.
* Coverage of 100 per cent of operations involving aircraft that seat 20 or more passengers.
* Trained personnel at the airport during the hours of operations to operate the AEIS equipment.
* In the case of community firefighting service, a person onsite during airliner arrivals and departures to alert community firefighters.
* Personnel providing AEIS to be trained according to standards set by Transport Canada.

However, this Regulation was repealed in June, 2006:

Subpart 308 applied to those airports which were not required and those which had not voluntarily chosen to meet the requirements of Subpart 303 but which met the following criteria: there were movements by aircraft in respect of which a type certificate had been issued authorizing the transport of 20 or more passengers; these aircraft were operated in an air transport service (see footnote 2) under Subpart 701 Foreign Air Operations or Subpart 705 Airline Operations (see footnote 3) and the schedule of movements of these aircraft was available to the operator of the airport at least 30 days in advance. The requirements imposed by Subpart 308 were less burdensome than those mandated under Subpart 303. The airports to which Subpart 308 applied were not designated as international airports and, therefore, were not required to meet the ICAO standards.

Subpart 308 has been unpopular with many stakeholders in the aviation community and has been the subject of on-going representation for its revocation. With the revocation of Subpart 308, the tension between members of the airport management community and officials from the Department of Transport is expected to be alleviated. Better working relations would enable both parties to cooperate in introducing safety management systems (SMS) and proposed new regulations related to airport emergency planning into the airport environment.

Canada Gazette Part II, Vol. 140, No. 10 — May 17, 2006 - Regulations Amending the Canadian Aviation Regulations (Parts I and III)

JL · Post by JL » Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:53 pm

I've read (still looking for the reference) that you've only got about 15-20 seconds to exit a small aircraft on fire to before you will succumb. Can anyone think of an example where ARFF ever pulled a live someone out of a burning aircraft? A recent excample would be Air France. I do believe that by the time ARFF showed up all pax had vacated the aircraft.

CD · Post by CD » Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:42 am

Understanding the Successful Evacuation from an A340

CD · Post by CD » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:19 am

JL wrote:Can anyone think of an example where ARFF ever pulled a live someone out of a burning aircraft?

The situation that you describe is possible, but unlikely today. The role of aircraft rescue and fire fighting at airports is to provide an escape route away from a burning aircraft, using the AFFF or similar agent to knock-down and disperse the fire. As there is typically only one fire fighter per response vehicle, the first-responders are not going to leave the vehicle while the fire is burning. Entry will normally only be attempted once the fire has been contained/extinguished, the safety of the response personnel will not be endangered or there are sufficient backup resources available to assist.

All that being said, if you happen to know any fire fighters, you are likely aware that they will do what needs to be done to save a life...

"rescue" means the act of evacuating persons from an aircraft involved in an aircraft accident or incident at an airport by means of fire suppression and then, if circumstances permit, aircraft entry.

JL · Post by JL » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:19 am

I found the reference for probable escape times from a small aircraft on fire...

3.1 Survival Thresholds
Occupant injuries associated with small-aircraft accidents can be characterized as related to impact or fire. Impact-related injuries can be divided into two groups: contact injuries that occur when a body contacts surrounding structure during impact, and acceleration injuries that occur due to rapid reductions in occupant speed. Contact injuries can be mitigated by better restraint systems, by the use of protective equipment such as helmets, and by enhancements to the interior of the cockpit and cabin areas. Acceleration injuries can be reduced by minimizing the energy transmitted to the occupant through energy-absorbing structure and seats. Both categories of impact injuries can contribute to fire-related injuries and fatalities by immobilizing occupants sufficiently to prevent rapid self-exit from a PIF environment.

Fire-related injuries can be differentiated as burn injuries and respiratory injuries. Occupants exposed to PIF risk skin and flesh thermal injuries, respiratory thermal injuries and/or exposure to toxic gases, all of which can be fatal. References in the Simula Technologies Small Airplane Crashworthiness Design Guide (Document 4) indicate that the available tolerance/escape time in a 400ºF environment would be approximately 20 seconds (Hurley and Vandenburg, 2002).

...and about ARFF...

For fire suppression to be an effective defence against fire-related injuries or fatalities where occupants are unable to evacuate an aircraft on their own following an accident, the fire must be suppressed or extinguished before the fire-related injuries or fatalities occur. This may not be possible in the case of most post-impact fuel-fed fires involving small aircraft. More often than not, small-aircraft accidents occur at sites other than CARs 303-designated airports. Even when a small-aircraft accident occurs at a CARs 303-designated airport and a fuel-fed PIF erupts at impact, the predictable escape time of 17 seconds is significantly less than the demonstrated ARFF response time of three minutes. This indicates that there is a much greater benefit to taking whatever engineering initiatives are necessary to prevent PIFs than there is to relying on potential rescue actions when fire occurs.

The entire TSB report can be found here...

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/stu ... sec2.asp#3

Dave T · Post by **Dave T** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:59 am

I was also surprised how long it took just for someone to go out there. I know it's not their job but a truck operator, one of the plow guys, anyone. I don't know if it's a legality thing but I'd like to know that if my A/C flipped over someone would jump in a truck and try and get me out. Not wait for the fire dept or take 7 minutes to get out there. Granted the plane was not on fire but the guy could have been in there bleeding to death.
Just surprised it took so long for anything.

wanpaku-ed · Post by **wanpaku-ed** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:48 am

Wow, 7 minutes. That is totally unacceptable. I suppose the fire department did all they could in getting out there as quick as possible. I do agree with most comments about how nobody went to this fella's aid. Everytime I have gone to GP, there has always been an airport truck driving around doing....whatever they do, where were these yahhoos at the time of the accident. That is a very scary thought. What if, god forbid, a 737 full of people had a similar accident. There would be nothing left but smoldering aluminum and people, in 7 minutes. Even then, does GP have sufficient equipment for a disaster of that magnitude.

I am glad the old fella in the homebuilt was ok. I saw that plane sitting in Swan Aero a couple months back and was very impressed with the workmanship. Someone said he was working on it for 11 years. What a heartbreak for him. That sucks. Main thing though, he is ok.

pilotdreams · Post by **pilotdreams** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:49 am

We were just starting up when he crashed. It's amazing that he was ok. I watched the crash....pretty unbelievable.

On the topic of response time by the Grande Prairie Airport Authority.....DISGUSTING! It was 7 mins before anyone even went out to the aircraft to see if he was ok or even alive!

Yeah, you would think someone that watched it happen would run over there eh?

RatherBeFlying · Post by **RatherBeFlying** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:57 am

There at least seems to be structure in the case of the Cosy to protect the occupants in case they end up upside down.

GP does not cover itself in glory when nobody bothers to drive over to see what could be done before the fire truck showed up; however, you don't want to aggravate any possible injuries, especially spinal.

You can end up upside down on the ground in any airplane and it might be wise to figure out just how you can get out real quick.

thatdaveguy · Post by **thatdaveguy** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:49 am

heh, you guys don't know the half of it...15 minutes is actually pretty good.

i know two airports that are only served by local volunteer fire departments.

at the 15,000 movement site last time the FD was called it was a 55 minute response time. this airport has four sked flights a day, JS31 and B190's.

at the 60,000 movement site the last time they were called the FD did not ever arrive--tower told them they were no longer required after 1 hour 10 minutes. this airport is a smaller airport, and serves aircraft as large as citations.

CYMM does not have ARFF. it'd probably be a 25 minute response time from the FD there...it's a LONG way

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:33 pm

pilotdreams wrote:
We were just starting up when he crashed. It's amazing that he was ok. I watched the crash....pretty unbelievable.

On the topic of response time by the Grande Prairie Airport Authority.....DISGUSTING! It was 7 mins before anyone even went out to the aircraft to see if he was ok or even alive!
Yeah, you would think someone that watched it happen would run over there eh?

I was thinking the same thing.

why didn't any of the crews watching running over to help. sure security won't like it but when it comes to helping screw them