Sewertubes and ALPA

macoronimaniac · Post by **macoronimaniac** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:00 am

What will happen to our biggest metro operator if ALPA represents the pilots there. Any guesses. Will this be a good move? Will this kill the company? Do they even need it?

How will this affect the operation? Maybe they will close the doors. Lets hear your thoughts.

Disco Stu, SnJ, Centerstored, Gilligan, mysidesdone any comments?

60N30W · Post by **60N30W** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:11 am

Could you be a little more specific on which carrier you are refering to to.

Thanks

60N30W

arctic navigator · Post by **arctic navigator** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:39 am

Is ALPA looking at the Big Green Machine perhaps? Probably not too much considering ALPA represents the Bear and they get away with charging pilots 10k training bonds.

CaptainHaddock · Post by **CaptainHaddock** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:40 am

A quick search by type on pilotcareercentre's website shows Perimeter as the SW3/4 winner with 21 listed.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:28 am

ALPA is into the Bear? With the 10K up front hire requirement, what does ALPA do for them......other than SFA??

bobcaygeon · Post by **bobcaygeon** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:51 am

Why would ALPA be interested in the BIG P??? The Bear is only in because they were grandfathered thru CALPA. Who knows if even Calm Air would be in ALPA if they hadn't been apart of CALPA first? Maybe, Maybe not.

I'd say for the pilots at the Big P, don't waste your time or money. Your Ops manager is pretty much the only one of you that has any experience with ALPA and I can guess what his position would be on it? ALPA has it's benefits and negatives but at a small company like the Big P. I think the negatives would outweigh the positives.

IMHO
PS ALPA's beer and pizza doesn't taste any different.

....... · Post by **.......** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:55 am

Doc wrote:ALPA is into the Bear? With the 10K up front hire requirement, what does ALPA do for them......other than SFA??

A union is only as strong as it membership wants it to be...

If the membership doesn't complain about the 10K, it's not up to the union to fight it alone.

CAL · Post by **CAL** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:45 pm

Ya I always wondered how they stuck to that 10k as a member of ALPA...dont forget your dues!!!

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:27 pm

SkyLounger wrote:
Doc wrote:ALPA is into the Bear? With the 10K up front hire requirement, what does ALPA do for them......other than SFA??
A union is only as strong as it membership wants it to be...

If the membership doesn't complain about the 10K, it's not up to the union to fight it alone.

Isn't that the truth! And as much as the Bear's bond gets cursed on this board, you never see one of their own defending it. Interesting.

giligan · Post by **giligan** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:36 pm

For the record, I do not work at Perimeter, Macro. It is an interesting topic though.

My thoughts on ALPA are that companies that have ALPA in place, NEED Alpa in place, too keep there management in check and to keep the company safe.

edited, the rest was irrellivant.
gil

b007 · Post by **b007** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:49 pm

No one likes paying a bond but in present times it is some times necessary in order to keep good pilots around!(no one want a new pilot ever few months try and keep some experienced guys around) The bond is paid back in full and you never have to pay for additional training. I don’t think you’ll get any pilot defending a 10k bond! And don’t get me wrong I’m not defending it I’m just saying everyone’s been burnt and need to take precautions both management and pilots and don’t give me that bs about the company should trust that pilots, if treated well wont leave, cause that’s only a very select few! Don’t bash my post please my intent was never to cause any animosity. Just my thoughts

b007 · Post by **b007** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:51 pm

Sorry I'm Off Topic!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:57 pm

" and don’t give me that bs about the company should trust that pilots, if treated well wont leave, cause that’s only a very select few! "

Ain't that the truth.

Pilots brought the bond problem on themselves.

And some companies take advantage of it.

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:54 pm

giligan wrote:The only reason ALPA has not been more involved is that the pilot group there has considerably less experience in the industry than in previous years.

I don't think ALPA is looking at companies like Perimeter, but I'm sure the CPA is looking at ALPA.

I don't understand why experience and ALPA are to be examined together. Just because many senior pilots have moved on leaving spots (finally) for FO's to move into doesn't mean ALPA is any better or worse of an idea. Does a 1 1/2 year FO that's worked up the system lack any more experience than a 3 year FO (the way it used to be)? Of course not.

Anyway, ALPA will be a welcome asset to a growing pilot group if the right contract is brought in. Will it bring big changes? Hell ya and some of them probably won't be pretty. Does PAG need ALPA? No. They have a representative group but that group needs a little more clout with managers. I don't need to start paying ALPA for "services." PAG's changed since Skyward went down and is playing catch up at a lazy rate because there's no competition. Now NAC's more visible so it'll good to see if changes come from that. Biggest mistake was being sold to an investment fund....

Don't bonds come from the company side rather than the ALPA side? Could ALPA force already PPC'd staff to sign a bond if that's what ALPA does?

bobcaygeon · Post by **bobcaygeon** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:23 pm

ei ei owe

Your understanding of ALPA is very, very weak. Why would you want something that you really seem to have no clue about?? Is anyone getting fired or suspended for unjust reasons? Are pilot's pressured to fly broken,overweight airplanes???
WestJet is not unionized and one could easily argue they're contract is better than the Jazz/ AC contract. It definetly is if you are Jr. ALPA dwells on seniority for everything. Those who have seniority love it, but those who don't get the shaft repeatedly.

Careful what you wish for.....

PS Ask someone what it was like when Bill W. ran the day to day.

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:29 pm

macoronimaniac wrote:What will happen to our biggest metro operator if ALPA represents the pilots there. Any guesses. Will this be a good move? Will this kill the company? Do they even need it?

How will this affect the operation? Maybe they will close the doors. Lets hear your thoughts.

Disco Stu, SnJ, Centerstored, Gilligan, mysidesdone any comments?

If this is about PERIMETER, then why doesn't someone have the balls to say so?

This isn't grade 2. If you're clearly referring to a person or company, just name them for god's sake.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:58 pm

Bobcaygeon,

Sorry .. But your understanding of ALPA is weak ... very weak. Im pretty sure everyone has a very good understanding of what a union is. Why ALPA? ... Why not? ... With a union you stand as one with one voice to the company. There are no favours, and its not a popularity contest. You have a number, seniority and when your number comes up for an upgrade you will get the upgrade whether or not the CP is your buddy or if you're not "liked" by managment. They will make your world "fair" ... and ALPA doesn't create bonds ... the company is the one that negotiates the bond and the union will work around it. Remember its a contract and there are give and takes .. if they want the bonds, then there is obviously something else in it for the employees.

In the case of PAG .. and from what I know about it from those that work there .. a union would be a breath of fresh air .. Managers who think they "own" employees and treat them as such. F/O's not getting upgrades because they aren't part of the "in crowd" ... Sounds like enough of a reason to me.

If they decide to be unionized is the company going to close its doors .... No .... don't be silly. They will treaten you with everything they can, but they will not close the doors. Bearskin, Calm Air, Jazz ... they're still operating ... and you don't hear any complaints from there pilots on here. Bearskin and Calm Air both have $10K bonds ....

As for dues ... you have to pay for the services they provide, and if you'd like to find out more about those services you can checkout the website.

http://www.alpa.org

Each situation is different and you have to decide what is good for you ... So if you want good working conditions with fair wages and support then maybe you should think about it.

bobcaygeon · Post by **bobcaygeon** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:45 pm

Localizer wrote:Bobcaygeon,

Sorry .. But your understanding of ALPA is weak ... very weak. Im pretty sure everyone has a very good understanding of what a union is. Why ALPA? ... Why not? ... With a union you stand as one with one voice to the company. There are no favours, and its not a popularity contest. You have a number, seniority and when your number comes up for an upgrade you will get the upgrade whether or not the CP is your buddy or if you're not "liked" by managment. They will make your world "fair" ... and ALPA doesn't create bonds ... the company is the one that negotiates the bond and the union will work around it. Remember its a contract and there are give and takes .. if they want the bonds, then there is obviously something else in it for the employees.

In the case of PAG .. and from what I know about it from those that work there .. a union would be a breath of fresh air .. Managers who think they "own" employees and treat them as such. F/O's not getting upgrades because they aren't part of the "in crowd" ... Sounds like enough of a reason to me.

If they decide to be unionized is the company going to close its doors .... No .... don't be silly. They will treaten you with everything they can, but they will not close the doors. Bearskin, Calm Air, Jazz ... they're still operating ... and you don't hear any complaints from there pilots on here. Bearskin and Calm Air both have $10K bonds ....

As for dues ... you have to pay for the services they provide, and if you'd like to find out more about those services you can checkout the website.

http://www.alpa.org

Each situation is different and you have to decide what is good for you ... So if you want good working conditions with fair wages and support then maybe you should think about it.

I said EI EI OWE is uninformed because he asked if ALPA demanded the bonds, which as you answered is obviously not the case.

What union do you belong to??? In most unions all it takes is a simple majority (50%+1 vote) to screw the other 49%. There still are loads of politics. As for complaints on this site go look at the AC and Jazz forum. It's two unions fighting each other for a quarter of a century. Never mind what gets posted on their own private ALPA/ACPA forums.
Maybe a real union is the fix but every action has its price. ALPA is not the end all to beat all by any means. Unions also can run a company into the ground. AC ground handling is the posterchild for union arrogance. Overpaid, unproductive, and generally the biggest thorn in the side of Air Canada. Who else can pay your buddy to punch you in and out, get caught on video, get fired and then get your job back. Unions have there benefits but they also drag along the shit too.

Lifestyle for a junior capt/ FO at WestJet is better than at AC or Jazz, mostly due to union BS.

Pith Helmet · Post by **Pith Helmet** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:37 am

Localizer wrote:If they decide to be unionized is the company going to close its doors .... No .... don't be silly.

Not to mention that it would be union busting and therefore illegal in Canada.

uwillpay · Post by **uwillpay** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:38 am

Actually, union-busting isn't illegal if you do it in the Maritimes. Just sneak into the crew room in the middle of the night in YHZ, teminate 450 employees with 6 different termination notices, and then start up right away making sure not to hire back the guy you feel was most responsible for the unionization. Simple.

What's this nonsense about it being illegal?

Pshaw....Golden Rule: them that's got the gold, make the rules. Right, Kenny me son?!

errr..I digress..

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:42 pm

bobcaygeon wrote:PS Ask someone what it was like when Bill W. ran the day to day.

We're you at PAG when Bill ran the show? I wasn't but from what I've heard it was a tight ship. Then again, there weren't 100+ pilots and Dash 8/Metro II, III, 23/Beech 99 in the fleet. It was a smaller company that came from a bush type operation. All that's different now. The managers have investors to please. A large group of pilots needs stronger representation than just an "association" to deal with issues ranging from perdiems to days off to seniority and upgrades.

I may not know ALPA like a lawyer but like I originally said, the contract must be the "right one" for PAG and it's pilots. Pilots aren't forced to do completely unreasonable things but after a long ass day, having an extra flight demanded from you (on an often regular basis), while you have plans to get outta there at your scheduled time, with no extra renumeration is a crock. I can handle doing it every now and then to help my company out but when it's not recognized, appreciated and then expected of you, that's when it's time to put a foot down.

Is PAG a great place? Sure it is. No bonds, good wage, good benefits and vacation days to boot. Could it be better? Sure could, just like anywhere else. Is ALPA the answer? Who knows but it's sure brought alot of issues into the open and that's a great start for the pilots.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:24 pm

Hey,

There are always going to be stupid people that take advantage of situations, and yes 51% out-weigh the 49% but thats how the system works ... majority. You can always voice your opinion and inform others but the majority always rules. There is no great way about it ... just a way.

Loc

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:30 pm

What did kind of money did Bill see when the Indians took their stake in Perimeter?

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:08 pm

"Companies always get the union they deserve."

Some famous guy said that.

Captain Crunch · Post by **Captain Crunch** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:27 pm

Well here's my two cents...
I think all the talk around Perimeter these days about ALPA comes form a lot of other frustrations "we wouldnt have to put up with that if we were ALPA" etc... And I'm not sure if ALPA would fix all these problems overnight. For the most part, I would say the vast majority of us (yes I work there) dont know very much about ALPA. And the very few that do have been around Perimeter a while and might have a good idea what kind of changes we would see.

I agree completely that the union will only be as strong as its members want it to be, but I dont know if ALPA would make us any stronger than we have the potential to be right now.

Some people (the majority who dont know much about ALPA) say "ALPA would ruin this company, its a terrible idea" but to them all I would say is - there seems to be enough interest at P to at least try and arrange to have someone from ALPA to come in and talk to us - no harm in that is there? As a matter of fact, it would probably answer most of the questions we have.

Yes the only one in our company with experience with ALPA is our OPS MAN, and he is the kind of guy that if you went to his office and asked what they're about - he would tell you. I dont think ALPA killed anyone in his family or anything so i dont see him being biased about it, he is a straight shooter and cares a lot about Perimeter and wants to see it succeed (bonuses might play a part int that

). Maybe ALPA would hinder that, maybe they would help.

Sure like all companies there are problems, but we have people that listen, and for the most part they try and help you as best they can.

All in all, I personally wouldnt mind to learn more about ALPA, then again, the current union hasnt had much time to prove what they can do for us yet either... and believe me, they have a big test coming up.
ALPA or not, a job is only as good as you make it. So far, its fine by me.
CC

Sewertubes and ALPA

Sewertubes and ALPA

Re: Sewertubes and ALPA