Union

[Widow]

Carried over from another thread:

There are unions, and some of the larger carriers are unionized (Air Canada for example). However, the aviation industry really isn't that much different from other areas of business as far as unions are concerned ... most small & medium businesses in this country do not have unions - likewise, most small & medium aviation businesses don't.

As I'm not a labour-relations expert, I won't offer an explanation as to why. I'm sure there are many reasons why, and I'm sure those reasons are the same as in other industries / sectors.

...Now watch as this thread turns into a multi-page debate of Pro-Union vs. Anti-Union types, in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ............

I'm thinking of large unions in other dangerous industries ... like forest workers (steelworkers), and auto workers. Since aviation is inherently dangerous, has an inconsistent regulator, no watchdog and no ombudsman I don't understand why you haven't banded together to protect yourselves. I still wonder what the history of unions in aviation is. I seem to remember a thread about unions in the past, but cannot seem to find it.

[asdfasd]

The owners have an association (lobby group) called ATAC.

One day the pilots will see the light and align their individual unions towards governmental rule changes resulting in a safer working environment for all.

[Widow]

Doesn't anyone else have anything to say?

[xsbank]

I've worked for companies that have had unions and some that were not unionized. The companies that had the unions were constantly trying to find ways to mess with the contract and screw the pilots. The unions were constantly proving their worth.

The non-u. companies were generally better to deal with and preferred consultation. Those that were bad had unions looming, or I just moved on.

The idea of an over-arching union or association of pilots has been discussed on here before, generally (as I recall) thought to be a good idea, but nobody wanted to organize one.

I think wages, working conditions, death rates and the cost of just being a pilot have to get worse before this lot will move collectively. Besides, guys who have been in the industry for a long time tend to be better paid and appreciated and don't need an association. Junior guys do. The junior jobs that need the protection might also finish off entry-level businesses too.

So far, the junior guys that are being screwed are also the poorest and least able to pay the dues!

You can tell the apathy towards an umbrella union by the responses here.

[typo]

ATAC, a group of owner/operators who decide the "safe and efficient" manner to operate aircraft in Canada. They then lobby Transport to change the CARS to suit themselves, and allow us pilots to operate under their rules while hiding behind transport canadas regulations. You will see longer duty days and less oversight by transport in the future.

[Dust Devil]

ATAC, a group of owner/operators who decide the "safe and efficient" manner to operate aircraft in Canada. They then lobby Transport to change the CARS to suit themselves, and allow us pilots to operate under their rules while hiding behind transport canadas regulations. You will see longer duty days and less oversight by transport in the future.

Yawn!!!

[cloudcounter]

Just to do a 180 Widow-
The only Unions I have found you can trust
[ been a member of Cupe, teamstirs, couple other 'organizations to protect the members' ]
..has been the Union of Christ .....
and of that -Just the Boss totally!
It is a slippery fallen world
stay safe
cc

[short bus]

For God's sake, go spout off your religous speak somewhere else. Isn't there a biblical website forum you can beak off on?? This is an aviation forum, not a "let's hold hands and sing about god forum". Am I the only one that's had enough of this jackass??

[electraguy]

Hey Short Bus

No your not the only one. CC honestly this is an aviation website, where people talk about AVIATION related topics. Nobody wants to hear your rabble so go find a website that wants to listen to your spewing off at the jaw. Back to aviation. Widow, being involved and employed in the aviation industry I disagree with your opinion of aviation. I have read your story and i understand the situation that you are in with transport and I support you fully on that matter. But, the comment "Since aviation is inherently dangerous" is pushin it pretty far. I mean honestly u have a better chance getting in an accident driving to the supermarket than you do in an airplane. Every industry has is risks and dangers, aviation is no different, but i believe unless you have a good working knowledge of the business its unfair to label it"unsafe" There are some bad operators out there, but there are also bad trucking companys, bus companys, boat companies etc. How many ferrys have sank in the last couple years, is the ferry business inherently unsafe as well? As for Unions, I believe that unions breed laziness and an attitude of entitlment. The UAW has killed the north american car market to the point where there yearly market share falls lower yearly. Quality is down, prices are up. Having had to work in a Union shop as a contractor, I can vouch first hand for the childish attitudes that the union breeds. I believe that unions once had there place, but they are long since outdated. They rptect the lazy and punish the eager. I wish you all the best in your dealings with transport, i believe they should raise that engine and get to the "real" cause of the accident but i really think u should stop looking for the devil in everything aviation. Good luck to you.

[xsbank]

Electraguy, the commuter aviation industry has the highest death rate of any profession, including fallers. That is why Widow can claim its unsafe. Yes, there are more road deaths, but not from people working.

If I cared a bit more I'd Google the stats for you, but you can do it yourself.

[splitpin]

Just to do a 180 Widow-
The only Unions I have found you can trust
[ been a member of Cupe, teamstirs, couple other 'organizations to protect the members' ]
..has been the Union of Christ .....
and of that -Just the Boss totally!
It is a slippery fallen world
stay safe
cc

Cloudcounter!!!
Why don't you eff off and preach your billsh-t somewere else!!
It's losers like you who have got this world so effed up with all your religous crap. Get a life ASSH LE!!!!

[Widow]

dan·ger·ous /ˈdeɪndʒərəs, ˈdeɪndʒrəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[deyn-jer-uhs, deynj-ruhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. full of danger or risk; causing danger; perilous; risky; hazardous; unsafe.
2. able or likely to cause physical injury: a dangerous criminal.

[electraguy]

Heck that dictionary version describes an evening out in YQF among MANY other activities in which we all partake daily.

[Widow]

Heck that dictionary version describes an evening out in YQF among MANY other activities in which we all partake daily.

Miriam Webster:

Main Entry: dan·ger·ous
Pronunciation: 'dAn-j&-r&s; 'dAn-j&rs, -zhr&s
Function: adjective
1 : exposing to or involving danger <a>
2 : able or likely to inflict injury or harm <a>
- dan·ger·ous·ly adverb
- dan·ger·ous·ness noun
synonyms DANGEROUS, HAZARDOUS, PRECARIOUS, PERILOUS, RISKY mean bringing or involving the chance of loss or injury. DANGEROUS applies to something that may cause harm or loss unless dealt with carefully <soldiers>. HAZARDOUS implies great and continuous risk of harm or failure <claims>. PRECARIOUS suggests both insecurity and uncertainty <earned>. PERILOUS strongly implies the immediacy of danger <perilous>. RISKY often applies to a known and accepted danger <shied>.

Shall I find some more dictionary versions?

[Brewguy]

Widow, according to your dictionary definitions of danger / dangerous .... I am in danger every single time I take my car on the road. There are bad (including intoxicated and distracted) drivers everywhere, driving uninsured, unmaintained vehicles - while also violating speed limits and other rules of the road.

Yes, aviation has its inherent risks - as does most every form of activity. We have a (government) TV commercial running here in Ontario about the dangers of using cell phones while driving. It states that approx. 8 people are killed in (car) accidents every day in Canada, and I'm sure each of those people have family members asking "why?".

I am sorry for your loss, but people are killed every day, due to numerous causes. Sometimes the answer to "why?" is easy to come by, other times they are not. I truly hope that you do find your answer.

However, labeling this industry as "dangerous" is a slap in the face to all of the professionals involved in it. I think you will find that the vast majority of people who fly, have every intention of going home to their family at the end of the day. Of course the industry has some problems which need fixing, but what industry doesn't?

Electraguy, the commuter aviation industry has the highest death rate of any profession, including fallers. That is why Widow can claim its unsafe. Yes, there are more road deaths, but not from people working.

If I cared a bit more I'd Google the stats for you, but you can do it yourself.

Sorry xsbank, but I'm afraid I will have to ask you to provide some form of a source for your info, because I think that statement is entirely false. I've never seen statistics that would back up your statement, nor can I find any by searching.

[trey kule]

Electraguy wrote:

I mean honestly u have a better chance getting in an accident driving to the supermarket than you do in an airplane

Obviously you either have never flown with me or you have driven with me to the supermarket!

Electraguy also wrote:

They repct the lazy and punish the eager

Well, I'm in. Sounds like most pilots' dream...and it would be perfect if the union could do away with bonds and get some concessions with TC to allow FO's to log their time as PIC and get 2 for 1 credit when upgrading their licenses. Oh yah.....we need unions..
Your all turned around on this electra. Get with the program.

[electraguy]

neilblythin,


Thank you, that was the point I was trying to make. I couldn't find those stats either by the way. Aviation may not be perfect, but its no worse than any other transportation industry out there. Well said!

[Widow]

Well, I don't know why I'm the only one that seemed to know what the word meant before pulling out the dictionary - heck ya'll are still quibbling after I've shown you what two dictionaries say (you do know they all say more or less the same thing?). I accept that some of you don't agree that flying is dangerous, however the dictionary agrees with me. Come on guys, it's semantics.

The question was about unions.

[Brewguy]

Yes Widow, it is semantics. The dictionary definitions you provided are correct ... but they also describe a very large percentage of routing, non-aviation activities.

As for unions, I'm very surprised that this debate hasn't spiraled out of control yet. Maybe because the topic has been done to death in the past. As I live in Niagara (an area whose economy was largely reliant on the auto industry ... GM, etc.), talk of unions usually gets very heated around here. Everyone seem to be either very pro or anti-union; I don't often encounter too many with luke-warm opinions.

As I am one of the very few people on this forum that does not use an anonymous alias - I will not be discussing my feelings about unions on this open forum (what you post on the internet, has the potential to float around in the digital world for a long, long time) ...after all, one has to keep their future career options open, despite their personal feelings on this subject.

That said, there are others on this forum who remain anonymous - and usually don't care what they post. So I'm wondering why they don't speak up and get this debate going a bit more ... unless as I wrote earlier, people feel it has been done-to-death.

[Widow]

If, as you say neil, it's been done to death ... can someone tell me which thread might be a good one to look at, because I'd really like to try to understand.

[Cat Driver]

widow:

As you know I support your quest for change in how this industry is regulated.

I also respect your questions regarding why there is no cover all sort of union in aviation, there are many reasons including the industry is to spread out with to many small operators.

And like some here have said better we deal with the devil we have than the devil we may not want.

There is sufficient regulatory means to make aviation safer, what is needed is fair and unbiased oversite of the existing regulations.....you were already on that track.

I personally agree with Neil and others that unionizing might not be the answer.

Cat

[trey kule]

Cat,

what do you mean, they might not be the answer?????

didnt you read what neilblythin wrote:

"they respect the lazy and punish the eager"

Now come on,....how much better could that be for pilots.

PS. forgive me the sick humor. Its friday night, and I am stuck in bumf...k florida.
And I think if I try to go out for a beer I might become an alligator niblet.

[Cat Driver]

PS. forgive me the sick humor. Its friday night, and I am stuck in bumf...k Georgia

Your committing sodomy in Georgia and you got stuck?

[Cat Driver]

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[Cat Driver]

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