Values and priorities

[Cat Driver]

We have a private citizen in this group attempting to bring about changes in the way aviation is regulated she goes by the name of widow.

Her efforts and the time she must have spent to this point in time must be enormous.

One of widows threads is called.

Transport Canadas Values and Ethics Initiative

Trey Kule made this observation which I believe describes why aviation is a low level blue collar type of job that generally pays less than a Tim Hortons server.

Snaproll wrote:
At this time, there have been 400 views of this post and 17 actual posts.
Widow 3, Cat Driver 5 and Hedley 3.

So, subtracting 8 posts, we have a ratio of 9 to 400 regarding active involvement.

Since it is a genuinely serious topic, I have to assume that only 1 in 45 people are interested in seeing honesty in our Industry.

The rest, apparently, are content to stand by and watch their chosen profession slide into the toilet.

Sad.


Trey Kule added.

Interesting post..Did you notice that FBO hottie of the year got 16,000 hits
and over 100 responses.

Trey's comment just about sums up why pilots are treated like serfs by a lot of employers and programmed to march to the beat of the safety drum beat incessantly by those in government who pound out ton after ton of pablum mixed to feed the new generations of willing slaves to this industry.

Good post Trey Kule and Snaproll, very descriptive of the true state of aviation.

PS:

Widow......

You are getting somewhere but this forum is only a means to keep the message in the public eye.

You will only succeed when you get the ear of the Minister of Transport and by default the ear of Steven Harper.

Pruess and his ilk live in fear of embarrassing these people...so lets concentrate on that route.

. .

[confuzed]

Great thread Cat, it truly is amazing what kind of thread catches peoples attention. I think though for some maybe something that Widow herself mentioned in a thread is why they don't stand up for themselves. I believe it was the sentence "fear of reprisal". Knowing the beast that it is, I don't blame some people for just trudging along from day to day accepting the industry for what it is. Some also know that if they were to stand up to this "government body", that somehow/somewhere/sometime they will be added to the radar screen. Is this worth ones career? Until a VERY large percentage of people stand up to the line for this fight, very few will step forward at all. It truly is a David vs. Goliath, and not very many people are willing to risk their careers over it.

Just a thought

[. ._]

Here's a link to widow's thread.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... initiative

-istp

[marktheone]

The reason that "FBO Hottie" got all those hits is that in general most pilots and people involved in aviation are content.

Lots of jobs out there now and decent pay mntce is better as of late. There, by en large, is nothing to bitch about.

Of course TC is TC and always will be but even they can't put a lid on the economic situation that has come about.

I don't know what's going east of Alberta/Sask, but it's going ok here in the west.

Wait for an economic downturn and you'll see twice the hits on the "blame TC" threads.

Just my theory.

Take care
Mark

[B-rad]

.

[Cat Driver]

Thanks confused;

You said:

Some also know that if they were to stand up to this "government body", that somehow/somewhere/sometime they will be added to the radar screen. Is this worth ones career? Until a VERY large percentage of people stand up to the line for this fight, very few will step forward at all. It truly is a David vs. Goliath, and not very many people are willing to risk their careers over it.

When I decided to make my stand and refuse to be treated like an animal in a cage by someone in TC who should never have been hired in the first place I did it based on evaluating my chances of bringing about change.

My situation was perfect for making a stand.

I was on the receiving end of a bully protected by his position, however this bully made the mistake of threatening me.

My career was nearing the end due to my age and the time had come to cash in my background and record of working safely within the industry against a bully who I knew was doing exactly the same to others, I talked to some of my colleauges in aviation and told them what I was about to do.

They all said TC would ruin me and my business and I agreed that that would probably be true.

It took me almost three years to prevail and show beyond doubt the regulator is infested with immoral employees at the top.

For me it was worth it, I do not have to go to bed at night knowing deep down that I am just another victim of an unjust regulator kissing the asses of scum who couldn't make it anywhere else except under the protection of TCCA.

And I had an advantage in that I could work anywhere on earth, which I did very successfully.

Also I have in my possession enough evidence to convince any right thinking person that there must be changes made in how the regulator is managed....and that can only be done through the Minister of Transport.

So for me it has been worth the struggle.

. .

[Cat Driver]

B-rad:

I can't really answer your question as to what benefit there is to posting here on this forum, but you yourself posted in Sept. of 2006 asking someone to explain what makes an airplane turn.

Was posting that question of any help to you, I see you are now a pilot so obviously someone helped you figure out how to turn an airplane.

Cat

[Widow]

For what its worth, there are a handfull of pilots as myself who perhaps didnt reply but still dont just stand by to watch the imdustry slide into the toilet. as you mentioned, this is just a forum, would posting my support really contribute to fixing it?

much the same, is she really the hottest girl i can look forward to seeing around the airports?

Check

What are you doing to prevent the industry from sliding into the toilet?

[marktheone]

Widow,

I would say the industry is coming out of the toilet. Finally.

[Widow]

Widow,

I would say the industry is coming out of the toilet. Finally.

Why would you say that? Not an attack, just curious what you see as currently happening to bring the industry "out of the toilet"?

I do agree that the implementation of Bill C-6 should make a great difference - providing it is passed, and providing the authorities read it with common sense and continuity.

[Brewguy]

Perhaps he works in a professional manner. Perhaps he does his job within the letter of the law, does not buy PPCs, and does not work for slimy crooks. Perhaps if he took a job and found out he was working for crooks and law breakers, he would walk away from that job, report his former boss to the authorities (for whatever that's worth), and would 'spread the word' about that operator amongst his peers.

But if he works for a good operator, and does his job professionally - then that IS doing his part. Just because someone is not crusading, does not mean they are standing idle. We all have to balance the various parts of our lives (work, family, etc.). If you work in a good place, and your own personal experiences within your industry have been good - why would you expend all of your energy fighting, instead of just going home at the end of the day? Is it worth getting yourself 'black listed' with a potential future employer, who may be looking for good workers and not for crusaders?

By all means Widow - go fight the good fight. If you come here looking for feedback from those with their 'boots on the ground' in the industry, great. But don't for a minute think that everyone will be hopping on board - or that everyone has suffered from some form of ill-treatment in the industry. As this is just not the case.

B-rad has no obligation to do anything extra-ordinary, other than doing his job (that's assuming he works in commercial aviation) properly and professionally.

[Widow]

By all means Widow - go fight the good fight. If you come here looking for feedback from those with their 'boots on the ground' in the industry, great. But don't for a minute think that everyone will be hopping on board - or that everyone has suffered from some form of ill-treatment in the industry. As this is just not the case.

Neil, the impression B-rad's post gave, to me, was that he believes the industry is sliding into the toilet. If he believes that, then doing his job to the best of his ability (unless he works for TC or the ministry) is not going to change anything. To me that is sitting idly by.

I am aware that those who have had serious problems are in the minority, and you know I am aware of the potential for repercussions. I certainly do not expect everyone (even everyone who has had a serious problem) to hop on board. But I do not understand people who see a problem (that affects their own livlihood/wellbeing) and do not actively try to solve/fix that problem. That is inertia, and in my opinion, inertia has as much potential to create hazardous situations as stupidity.

Here we are suggesting that everyone with a legitimate complaint band together. If we are banded together, with the support of our MP's and communities, then TCCA will not have the same potential to retaliate. They might, in fact, be forced to pay attention and initiate change.

It is the future that I think about. Yesterday is over and can't be changed. But I have children, and I want to ensure that these kinds of things cannot and will not happen to them, or their childrem.

So for those out there who are concerned about the industry, please ask yourselves - do you want your children to grow up and work in the environment in which you work? If the answer is "yes", then it's OK to do nothing - you obviously see no problem. If the answer is "no", you need to step up to the plate.

[Blue Side Down]

I really hope that this post catches on...


I think that the title speaks pages about a primary issue among pilots here:

When do values place ahead of priorities? When do priorities come first?

Can a up and coming pilot, just getting their start in industry, afford putting a fight for values ahead of their effort to support a family one day?

The fight to bring values back is a very noble one, and I have the utmost respect for those involved- they are the ones who may be writing history soon.

At the same time, though, I know that many can only stand by and do their part as neil mentioned- taking responsibility for who they work for and how they handle their involvement in the industry. There are many who are in this position... which, I think, is the answer to the 'why the fbo hottie thread got more responses' question.

[marktheone]

Widow,

Aviation on the west coast has changed 100% in the last 2 years. There is a host of reasons for this which I choose not to go into as it is not related to the topic.

There is no problem here now. Pilot's are doing well money wise flying decent aircraft and moving up when they want to.

I am not versed on bill C6 but what I can tell you is that in my lifetime anytime the government decides to "fix" anything they ALWAYS make it worse. Again I am not familiar with C6. If you want to see a bad bill take a look at C68. That is a typical government fix. They should just leave the damn industry alone. If operators keep their rates up things will only get better.

Mark

[Widow]

Can a up and coming pilot, just getting their start in industry, afford putting a fight for values ahead of their effort to support a family one day?

If he/she is just getting their start in the industry, and are already aware of the problems, then they cannot afford not to attempt to affect change - or quit.

[trey kule]

You know, Marktheone, the sense I get from your first post is that you feel the complaints about TC are related to the aviation economy. Which means, as I think you are trying to put it, that the complaints have no legitimacy. A byproduct of disgruntled aviaiton people so to speak.
If you dont work for TC, you should. You are doing one heck of a job at damage control.

Allow me to postulate this. There are some of us who feel that TC has some problems that they are not addressing, and further that they actually go on the attack against anyone who tries to make them address the issues. It is Big TC against an individual.

So, those who have complaints, can, as a group, put them together, and get them on to the floor of the house. That will bypass TC's CYA process and we can let the public and the politicians decide if the complaints are simply a byproduct of a bad economy, as you suggest, or legitimate needs for change.

As to your comments about the industry, toilet wise, I couldnt care less about whether the industry is waterskiing or drowning. That is not the issue. TC has some wrongs that, in my opinion need correcting. Lets see if others agree rather than propose the happiness is a good economy thing.

I do have to agree with you about the West coast thing though. I had some dealings with that office six months ago.
But put a cup of crap in a barrel of fine wine....you get a barrel of crap.

[Dust Devil]

Tell me again that all I have to do is trust you.

I think that swings both ways. We have one group saying TC is shit and one saying it's just a few shit apples. Does everyone need to band together to quash the few shit apples that affect a few individuals? Maybe. But I think it would be futile. This is the real world there are shit apples everywhere and there always will be. As I've said before the inspectors I've dealt with have been fair. I haven't encountered one that caused me a problem. This isn't spoken out of fear or any other reason. It's just the way it is. That was why I asked the question in another thread as too what may have sparked things then quickly pounced on. Which reminds me I said I wouldn't get involved in this discussion. Damn I guess I lied.

[B-rad]

.

[trey kule]

DD.

I say this sincerely, I am glad all your experiences with TC have been good.

And I agree with you that it is only a few bad apples. The problem is that these bad apples have the power to destroy people's careers, and they seem to not be able to admister that power wisely.

Let me give you an example. Many years ago, I flew the RCMP on speed patrols..timing cars from the air. I watched them let speeders go because they missed them for a second. Watched them give people the benefit of the doubt. It was fascinating, and to this day I could swear in court that if one of those officers said you were speeding....you were speeding. File a complaint about the conduct of an RCMP officer today, and an internal investigation gets underway immediately. They value their integrity. Yes it gets besmirched now and then, but they do their best to deal with the bad apples.
That kind of integrity does not exist in TC. I personally have seen TC employees bulling young pilots, have seen them slander people, over-extend their authority, and lie under oath. And when an organization allows this to happen and even defends it, it is time for a change...the problem, for the most part is that the change needs to be made at all levels, and the management is just not going to let this happen. file a complaint against a TC employee and, in my experience, they will turn the dogs loose on you.

[marktheone]

You know, Marktheone, the sense I get from your first post is that you feel the complaints about TC are related to the aviation economy. Which means, as I think you are trying to put it, that the complaints have no legitimacy. A byproduct of disgruntled aviaiton people so to speak.
If you dont work for TC, you should. You are doing one heck of a job at damage control.

Yep, I guess that is what I think. In the past we have sunk ourselves by flying for free. That's what it ALL boils down to. If a company if flying for rates that are too low it is a snowball effect that ends at pilot satisfaction and maintenance of aircraft. Cat's problem is certainly not in this example. His is entirely different. Do you agree?

The company I work with has high morale, few people leave and it's constantly growing. We have no current issues with TC. As I have previously stated they (TC) piss me off sometimes and they get a kick in the nuts for it. Most of the TC people I deal with (most not all) are ok.

That's why nobodies tripping all over themselves to get involved. Aside from .'s issue and Widow's with which I am unfamiliar there appears to be no problem.

And I don't work for TC goddamn it.

[beechy]

Maybe i am Nieve, young and stupid but it seems to me we have a criminal justice system in Canada.....and yes it is one that often is a pain in the ass. The point of this system and the courts is to give aid to those who have been wronged. So those with issue's, especially if you have names and evidence should file your woes and get heard in front of a court of law. These TC guys, the bad apples, should be brought into the public eye and treated like any other citizen would be if they were acting against the public safety or abusing thier powers. If nothing else you should have a civil action against the individuals responsible.

I don't know anythig about widow or Cat, except to know . is a very experienced pilot whom deserves respect, but have you tried the public forum to get these guys? Taken them to court?

People like myself starting out in this industry don't have the means by which to take this sort of action (nor would we want to if our careers would be over before they started) . I am not saying you guys do, but you are probably in a better position. That being said Hedley throws up pictures of his three boats, motorcycles etcc......so he obviously, if he wanted to, could take his case to a lawyer and see this through.

Like i Said i am not always the brightest guy in the room, i am far from experienced in life and iam somewhat nieve.....but this is the foundation upon which we claim to be a free nation, so if you can't get justice we are no better off then Iraq or any other third world, drug cartel driven society.

[Cat Driver]

B-rad:

I see absoutely nothing wrong with this.

Cat Driver

Ya that was helpfull posting how an airplane turns. i already had an understanding of it but at some debate with a friend. i still have the same job flying as i did back then and am learning alot about flying. a bit comes form this website too. you might even see me ask more about theory of flight because i really am still building on what i know. the first 200 hrs didnt teach me enough and after the first 1000 it still seams to keep on coming.

One sign of a dedicated pilot is one who asks others to explain things they are unclear on, that is being smart and demonstrating the willingness to learn over rides any self discomfort with admitting you don't know all the answers.

For that I admire you.

I mentioned your post last fall to point out that this issue widow myself and others are trying to resolve is in all probability beyond the experience level of someone just getting started as a pilot to really grasp as just how serious it can be to your future if changes are not made.

[Widow]

Maybe i am Nieve, young and stupid but it seems to me we have a criminal justice system in Canada.....and yes it is one that often is a pain in the ass. The point of this system and the courts is to give aid to those who have been wronged. So those with issue's, especially if you have names and evidence should file your woes and get heard in front of a court of law. These TC guys, the bad apples, should be brought into the public eye and treated like any other citizen would be if they were acting against the public safety or abusing thier powers. If nothing else you should have a civil action against the individuals responsible.

I don't know anythig about widow or Cat, except to know . is a very experienced pilot whom deserves respect, but have you tried the public forum to get these guys? Taken them to court?

People like myself starting out in this industry don't have the means by which to take this sort of action (nor would we want to if our careers would be over before they started) . I am not saying you guys do, but you are probably in a better position. That being said Hedley throws up pictures of his three boats, motorcycles etcc......so he obviously, if he wanted to, could take his case to a lawyer and see this through.

Like i Said i am not always the brightest guy in the room, i am far from experienced in life and iam somewhat nieve.....but this is the foundation upon which we claim to be a free nation, so if you can't get justice we are no better off then Iraq or any other third world, drug cartel driven society.

In my case, the criminal investigation is ongoing. Unless a government agency in charge of an act assures them that there were criminal infringements on the act, they will do nothing. How likely is it that TCCA will admit the operater did something wrong if doing so also implicates themselves? How likely is any government agency to implicate another?

We have legal assistance, for civil action - however, we subrogated our rights to the Worker's Compensation Board, and so it lies in their hands whether or not civil action will be taken.

For those still unfamiliar with my story - please read my website before commenting on my case. Remembering CGAQW

[Cat Driver]

These TC guys, the bad apples, should be brought into the public eye and treated like any other citizen would be if they were acting against the public safety or abusing thier powers. If nothing else you should have a civil action against the individuals responsible.

Beechy, what you suggest is just about impossible for the average citizen to do, the cost of such an action if you could get beyond the protection under law that people such as Preuss and Nowzek have is far beyond what I or most here could ever raise to pay lawyers good enough to beat them....

...and there is not enough money to be won to interest lawyers...it just is set up that way to protect these civil servants....sadly it works to well.

Cat

[sky's the limit]

Widow,

I would say the industry is coming out of the toilet. Finally.

I would like some of whatever it is you're smoking. Really.

If you think this is "coming out of the toilet," I'd hate to see your definition of "in the toilet."

Just because some of you flogging around in turboprops are finally making $60K/yr with 3000hrs of experience, doesn't mean it's even close to being out of the toilet. First off, $60K is peanuts, and even more so when you look at the time it takes (experience) to achieve that job. There are Citation Capt's making $60K, yeah that's great... $40K for a single pilot IFR guy on the coast... nice... Beaver/Otter guys working their asses off for $5k/mo in the summer... Excellent.

In my world there are drillers and loggers making 10-24k/month based on experience... Oh wait you say, "who'd want to be a driller or logger?" Ok, fair enough, but how many people EVEN in the aviation world would trade places with me? I live in tents, fly in appalling weather(read below most IFR limits on many days, no I'm not exaggerating), push my machine to it's limits EVERY DAY, and fly over terrain where an engine failure almost certainly leaves me seriously injured or worse. So who wants to job share?

Do I like my job, of course I do, but when taking into consideration skill, responsibility, and consequences of a @#$! up, $12K/mo is not enough - especially when said driller with less experience is making $21K/mo. So, I now turn down jobs that do not pay me well enough for my time/skill/energy/absence from home/risk, and WON'T fly iffy machinery. That I've had to put in many years doing just the opposite to achieve the LUXURY of turning down work is really not good.

I run into Ho, KA, and float drivers from time to time, and almost always shake my head at their situations, yet as a whole there is nothing going on to change this. If one person refuses, another jumps right in. This mentality of "it'll pay when I get to AC/WJ" is a joke, as most of you will never get there - not that "there" is even that good anymore.

The responsibility lies not just with the pilots/engineers to demand proper wages/equipment/working conditions, but the operators to start charging rates that are acceptable. ANY other industry up's it's rates when in times of high demand, ours does not seem to understand that concept. Training customers is one of THE most important parts of our job when it comes to safety, why won't we do it when it comes to rates?

STL