Float training

[Dominic220]

Looking for input from people with float ratings - I'm looking at doing my float rating (50hrs) in March, choices I've found so far are Air Hart or Bakers Narrows. One would keep me in kelowna doing mountain flying on a 172XP/180, or 30hrs 172/206 mountain flying on Vancouver island and 20hrs in flinflon on 172/206/observation on a Beaver. If anyone has experience (good or bad), or suggestions on other FTU that I could get the float rating completed in march with, please let me know.

Thanks!

[Highsea]

Where can I start......... If your looking to do your float rating in BC then you need to take a look at:

Pat Bay Air (C-172): http://www.seaplane-training.com/
Parallel Seaplanes (C-172): http://www.parallelaviation.com/
Fort Langley Air (PA-18/C-180): http://www.fortlangleyair.com/
Ocean Air (C180): http://www.oceanair.ca/

There is a lot more too, but I know all the places above have a good training programs...... But take your rating with a grain of salt. I learn more about real world float flying with my Chief Pilot last summer and working the dock then I learnt in my 50 hours of training.

[confused]

I have heard nothing good about Bakers Narrows,I would go to Airheart,he puts out a decent couse.

[Ralliart]

You know something's fishy when you type a name and it comes out as ******

Buyer beware.

[shimmydampner]

I've heard great things about Air Hart. The alternative you mentioned would be akin to shooting yourself in both feet, in my opinion. There are also plenty of other places across the country to do your rating at. What province would be most beneficial for you? There are also places in Alberta and Ontario that do float rating that I know of. You have options.

[Rowdy]

Avoid the * narrows..

Airhart is good..

I recomend from my own personal experience.. Ft. Langley Air as Dave Hamel is a fantastic teacher and the 180 CDQ is quite nice and well kept.

I also hear that Floatsafety (a division of PRO IFR) is also quite good

The folk at parrallel have a solid reputation as well

Don't know much about pat bay or ocean air.

[twotter]

I agree with Rowdy, I've heard nothing but good about Dave at Fort Langley.

[buck82]

You should check to see if the place you do your training is also operates as a 703 (taxi) service, this way when you complete your training you also have your foot in the door, or at least a good reference for your first job. You are also more likely to experience real life float flying. Just be carefull to avoid anyone who makes you pay... to fly commercially!!

[avmg]

Go see Dave at Fort Langley! He tells lots of good stories, and he can really teach you how to fly, as well. If the 180 is a bit too much $, he also has a Super Cub there.

I heard Air Hart in Kelowna is good, go in the summer for Wake Fest perhaps.

[flyinggirl]

Check out http://www.floatsafety.com

[Reality]

Everybody know's about the narrows and what a joke it is... Kind of odd they still try to "train" people. If you want to be hired after training go to a respected company like Air-Hart, they won't promise you the world and then **** you over like "narrows".

[GeeBee]

If you check the COPA plane trade for feb you will see their 172 206 and a Beaver are for sale and if you read the last page under partnerships he is looking for people to buy a Chieftin, C185 and a DHC-2 for about a 400h a year lease.

[Reality]

Very unstable company.... There years are numbered. Dishonesty and cutting corners will allways catch up with you...

[bluenote]

If you flew an ultralight or homebuilt on floats would that count as float time or experience flying a float plane?

any info would be welcomed

bluenote

[youngflier]

kamloops 1700 dollars

[GeeBee]

Thats right, selling job's and pissin off all the people in the town your operate in. He's just in it for the quick buck, even had a flight school in loydminster and well its no more.

[momto3]

My name is Angela Baynton and I own BNAS with my husband Brett Baynton.

Recently we have been made aware of this thread and would like to familiarize people with who exactly we are and what we provide.

We are not sure where all the negative feedback is stemming from (or more like the motives as to why it started) but rest assured this is the reason we feel it is so necessary to respond to these comments - that is to educate people so that their comments will become truth founded and not just hearsay based on someone's personal opinions. Personal opinions are so often emotion driven and it seems these forums are always so "emotion driven" rather than based on fact. While this feedback has not harmed our business' success it has harmed how we feel about the advice that these forums are giving our young up and coming pilots. Its been said time and time again that aviation is a small industry and that's so absolutely true! So why are we not giving our young pilots solid truth founded advice?

We would like to present our story and if this site is truly as it says it is, to help up and coming or present seekers, then our story will be left on this thread. We have tried to present our story in the past and the moderators of the thread's have chosen to delete them, continuing to allow only negative feedback. This is unexcusable and dishonest behaviour. If this is a spot where people can come for honest advice than shouldn't the truth be able to be heard as well?

We shouldn't have to divulge our life's history but we are going to do that in order to set the record straight. If anyone questions us, our integrity or our programs we offer, we encourage you to contact us directly and we'll be thrilled to answer your questions directly.

Well Brett was born and raised in Lloydminster .... Ok, maybe not that far back!

Upon coming a commercial pilot and flight instructor, Brett purchased a flight school in Lloydminster with his father and brother. This flight school was very successful and trained many many students from 0 time to commercial. It was around this time of "Lloyd Air 2000 Ltd." that Brett bought his first float plane and began to offer seaplane endorsements.

Brett's father, brother and himself had always wanted to own a fishing lodge. In 2001 this dream became reality, and by selling Lloyd Air 2000 Ltd., we (Brett and Angela) were able to enter into co ownership of a fishing lodge "Bakers Narrows Lodge" near the town of Flin Flon, MB (again with Brett's dad/mom and brother/sister in law).

Our first year in the lodge business was challenging to say the least. We decided on a clientale to target and spent huge amount of dollars renovating and bringing this dream to reality. It was this first year we started servicing our lodge clientale (and local clientale) with our Cessna 172. What a great little airplane (that we brought with us from Lloydminster). Our first winter we spent many a hours on hard cement floors of trade show halls, marketing to the fishing lodge goers!!! Based on our efforts and response in terms of bookings, it was time to add another bigger airplane in order to service the demand of patrons (for our fly-out fishing trips). The Cessna 206 was the next logical growth step and our fleet then became two. During this time, based on people knowing we had a flight instruction history, we were asked to give float endorsements. So with that said we began a truly unique float training course.

We're very blessed that we some interest in a fishing lodge and own an airservice ... we're able to provide a 50 hour training course while providing them (the students) with a job in an industry that relies heavily on "bush flying" so to speak. On that note, there seems to be so much negative feedback based on our course and all due to lack of information on how it really works. So to end the lack of information viscious cycle, here's how it works.

Students have many choices to choose from (unlike other training schools), which makes us a little more unique - no one is saying we're better than anyone else , the fact is that there are some really fantastic flight schools out there offering the same quality training we do. Where we differ from conventional schools that offer 50 hour courses is that we provide our students with a summer job to pay for their final 20 hours (if they choose this option) of training. So instead of students coming to us and paying us in excess of $15,000.00 for a 50 hour course similar to that that other operators offer, we are able to offer a different option for them to choose.

If they do choose our program in which they only are required to pay for the first 30 hours of training up front, then this is how it works. We charge our students a fee for their first 30 hours of training (which they can choose to complete in either the coast of BC or in Manitoba or even a mix of the two if they want). For the remaining 20 hours they can choose to either pay up front for their training and complete it the same way as the first 30 hours, or they can choose to be an employee at "Bakers Narrows Lodge" in the summertime and pay for their training that way.

So many people in these forums seem to be under the understanding that we "work them for nothing", and again misinformation is the source of these comments. Here's the scoop:

These students choose to become an employee of the lodge. That is, they're not employeed with the airservice as employees or pilots and there is never any misrepresentation that they would be! They are fishing lodge employees - that is they perform job duties related to the fishing lodge (store front clerk; waitress/waitering; fishing guide duties; housekeeping; yard or maintenance work ... basically anything that has to be done at a fishing lodge). They receive an income based on an hourly rate (more than fair for the so called "going rate" of the duties described) and they are able to earn overtime just as any regular job if they exceed working 40 hours per week. We've designed their "work term" such that at the end of it they would have earned enough to pay for their 20 hours of training and any room and board expenses they've incurred while living and eating at the lodge (if they choose to live at the lodge during their work term). Their training is completed after their scheduled shifts or on their days off, and where our training is "different" than other similar courses offered, is that they're able to train right in the industry (some examples are: we use camp checks, cargo loads etc as some of the training spots so that they can see first hand what it's going to be like flying in this kind of industry). We do actually "train them" despite comments we've heard that we just make them fly around servicing our lodge needs only. We give our students the option to fly on some of these type of flights in order to give them "first hand experience" while still "training" them and giving them every situation they would need to know for flying floatplanes safely and efficiently. And by the time they've reached the lodge they've already completed 30 hours of training, so instead of regular old timebuilding and landing and taking off in the same spots, we're able to mix it up for them.

So to respond that these students are working for nothing is ill founded and simply not true. They are working to gain 20 hours of additional training, they earn an income just as they would in any other job but the difference is they've chosen to put their income towards their training expenses, they are earning training in a situation in the "real world" of bush flying, they're working to gain experience, and it also allows us to screen for future employees. Oh and their work term is only10 weeks long (two and a half months of their summer) in which time they do earn tips (as anyone would working in a hospitality industry) and some even additional income dependent on how much they wanted to work in that 10 weeks. Additionally, if we see someone's work ethics are valuable in the "lodge employee" setting and their training is proving them to be an adapt pilot, it is not uncommon for us to hire our pilots that have come through our training courses (not to say that just because they have completed our 50 hour course they are guaranteed a flying job with us). We all know it takes more time than that to satisfy the trust from the employer and the insurance companies. But what is not uncommon for us to do is to carry (or rather finance) the cost of their additional training so that they can become adapt. We've done this over and over and have produced some excellent pilots because of it. We've given them a chance to prove themselves and their work ethics and if we like what we see have taken it one step further and have employeed them further. Many of our past pilots (that started as students) are now flying for larger companies and have safe, adapt track records. One student who completed our training in 2005 (as well as additional training from us) became a beaver captain for us in the summer of 2006. Another student from our 2005 training course became a 206 captain in 2006. Others from our 2004/2005 training courses went on to become instructors of our course, built their hours dramatically, enabling us to hire them as beaver captains. Two of these students are now flying twin otters for larger companies. So to say we don't produce good pilots is completely not true. A good pilot isn't just determined from his training, a lot of it depends on their attitudes, if they don't have a good attitude than noone will hire them (including us!).

Since offering this program our eyes have been opened a lot. We've discovered that even though it is clear from the begining that our students are not hired as "pilots" but rather lodge employees, some of them just don't succeed with what is required to make the best out of this opportunity. If they're not willing to do the job they were hired for and expect to be in an airplane for 10 straight weeks than this program definitely is not for them. It's designed for people who want to train in a setting that relies on "bush flying". But that is why we have choices ... they don't have to choose this method!

This is the real world and people have gone through this type of training and not been thrilled with the results. But one thing is in common with all of these people who haven't been happy with it ... none of them liked "working for the lodge". Many of them thought they were too good to be doing some of the work required of them (even though their duties were clearly explained upon hiring), and many of them had an attitude that they "knew it all already" in relation to their training. In this case you have to ask yourself, should they really be a "bush pilot" or will they even make a good pilot? The real world exists and we've seen people and students with all kinds of attitudes and yes we've even had to fire a few of them as our lodge employees (therefore ending their opportunity to pay for their training from their employment). It's a no brainer that emotions will then target ill comments regarding us and our training program, BUT what about all the other happy students? It seems these forums are a place for the ones who's feelings have been hurt to air their frustration out. It's not truly a forum for the best advise because everyone is different and therefore so is everyone's standard of what's the best way and in many cases presenting emotion driven opinions leaving out the facts. We have produced many many happy students who have gone on with terrific references from us whom now have a "real flying job" as I've heard some people put it. If requested by potential students we really do have references we eagerly give out.

So aside from our training work, our outside charter work as well as our own fishing lodge clientale have increased so much that every year since purchasing the lodge in 2001 we have increased our fleet, now including 3 beavers, a 206 and a 172. Some have said that we have ads out selling our aircrafts and looking for investors for other aircrafts. Without knowing the details please don't jump to conclusions. If you have questions, be honest enough to identify yourself and we'll gladly tell you the truth. But to use these forums to spread nonsense is a waste of everyone's time.

The aviation world is small and we are not out to make a "quick buck" as one person said, nor are our days numbered. If we were out to make a quick buck we wouldn't own a small airservice. We are in this industry because we love airplanes and we truly do want to help others gain employment in this field.

We are sorry that anyone who has become offended by us for any reason (specifically disgruntled past employees/students or our competition not thinking too kindly of us for being "competition") cannot be honest with us enough to come directly to us and discuss their concerns, so here is an open invitation to anyone questioning anything about us ... we are always willing to provide you with conversation and/or answers, all you have to do is pick up the phone and call us toll free. It's that simple, lets keep false emotions and statements out of these forums and keep it to good sound experience driven statements.

If this world were a perfect place noone would ever make mistakes. We've made mistakes and so have others by judging us based on a few peoples emotions. We won't hold a grudge and neither should you.

Lets work together on providing some good solid advise for everyone! These forums can be great but not if they're becoming the way they appear to be heading.

Fly safe and blessings to all,
Sincerely,
Angela Baynton
BNAS
1-866-353-9332

[Cat Driver]

" A good pilot isn't just determined from his training, a lot of it depends on their attitudes, if they don't have a good attitude than noone will hire them (including us!). "

[Blakey]

This is the single best post I have ever read on this website.

I applaud you Angela, for stepping up to the plate on this. I don't have any knowledge of your company, yourself, the character of the people who complain about you or the nature of their complaints with you, your husband or your operation. I do have 50 years of experience dealing with people and you have my respect.

Again, I don't have any interest here or any experience with you or your operation but nobody could ask better than what you have done here. The only two points I would comment on are:

Firstly, that anyone who has something non-complementary to say about you or your program would be wise to review this thread and respond in a similar fashion with their points; and,

Secondly, I've seldom found so many people to be totally wrong. You seem to have a very clear idea of what you are offering these people. Perhaps you are not clearly communicating this to them. Could they all be completely wrong? Where are the students that have had a good experience with you?

[momto3]

Here is a link to just a few of our students "testimonies". We are more than happy to supply a list of additional references to anyone should you require it.

(I hope this link works out ok ... I'm not the most computer inclined person in the world)

http://www.bakersnarrowsairservice.com/Testimonials/htm
[/url]http://www.bakersnarrowsairservice.com/Testimonials/htm

Blessings,
Angela Baynton

[momto3]

I just tried that link I left ... it doesn't work ... if you goto http://www.bakersnarrowsairservice.com and scroll to the bottom of the page then you will find a link that says Testimonies at the bottom of the page. If you click on that then you'll be in the right place.

Sorry about that.
Angela.

[confused]

A very nice web page,but with any web page you only post the good....not the bad.I have talked to alot who say they did not find this operator any good.One frenchman was so pissed off I thought he would have a heart attack as he told me the story.As someone said there are some operators who will not even talk to you if you trained at Bakers.You must of had some bad testimonies.Lets see them so we students can make an informed decesion

[zero]

This forum is open to both the positive and negative comments about people, places and companies. Forums are not the 'be all and end all' but should be considered in the context where people are immune to retribution behind a veil of anonymity. While there have been many negative comments about this operation I am waiting to see a positive comment and have kept an open mind.

Thanks for your comments Angela but I too have heard negative comments about BNAS outside of this forum from a co-worker.

[Wingman]

Hi everyone, just thought I would post my two cents about BNAS since we're all having a free for all here. I spent a summer up there and I worked with a number of different pilots from various parts of Canada. Some of them have been mentioned in the posts above (I'm not going to mention any names) and some others I may or may not know. I do know that some people come up to the float base expecting to get a 50 hour course and then automatically get hired as a pilot. What you have to understand is that in aviation, NOTHING is garaunteed and the owners of BNAS will tell you that they do hire internally but they will not gaurantee that they will hire you. I currently work for a top notch airline that does a lot of internal hiring. With the movement taking place today, they are doing a ground school every month. Does this mean that just because you work in the Flight Ops department that you deserve a job on the flight line? No, working a ground position for an airline or a float operator (it doesn't matter who it is) is basically a really long interview. They watch you and they know what people say about you and how you interact with your peers. If you have a bad attitude or some real difficulty getting along with people than it usually shows up in the first couple of weeks of employement. The best operators anywhere the world care about two things:

1) Do you meet the experience requirements (often this is only a requriement of clients or insurance companies)?

2) What type of person are you??????????????

AC and Jazz turn away a number of pilots that far exceed their experience requirements. It's not because they pulled the wrong number that day.

A company can train anybody to fly any type of machinery. What good is a pilot that cannot work with the person sitting next to them in the cockpit? What good is a pilot that doesn't want to do any work? What good is a pilot that goes around whinning and complaing about their company and causing problems in the workplace? Did you know that management at an airline spends 90% of their time chasing down 10% of the pilots population. Do you think that this is helping them produce record profits. I think it's pretty obvious why personality and attitude account for so much in this industry. There are people at some companies that nobody wants to fly with.

So my point is this, you may be hired by Joe float operator in the future. Pack your bags, catch a flight to the middle of nowhere, and start yourself a job working on his dock. Display that your a hard worker and deserving of a job operating his equipment and you might find yourself flying for a living. I can gaurantee you this, nobody is going to hire someone that isn't a good employee. Rather than gang up on a company, maybe take a better look at who they hire and why they hired them. See what kind of qualities that company is looking for. If you don't display them, why would you get a job? Because your good looking? Because you showed up one day for a 50 hour float course?

For they guy that was asking about float training you will have to decide for yourself what advice is creditable and what is not. Don't forget, there are people who are bitter no matter where they go and it's really easy to take shots at people when they don't know who you are. Make a deal with someone before you commit and have it in WRITING. Nobody is going to give you grief about a written contract and if they do, well then that decision just got a little easier. That way you know what you are getting and nobody can run away from their commitment. So good luck buddy, don't expect to get rich and have it easy anywhere but there is a lot to be gained from a career doing something that you love.

[flying dutchmen]

I'm just writing to reply to the majority of these postings that are really downtalking BNAS. I should start by saying I did the 50 hr float course in 2005. I did a 10 day stay in the nanaimo harbour with my instructor(who might I add is now flying a twin otter in the maldives ) were we did a very large variety of flying, lets see,
-vancouver harbour (busy and challenging) a must for anyone looking to fly out west
-comox
-powell river
-campbell river
-whistler
- lots of mountain flying
-whaletown
-mansons landing
-port hardy
To tell you the truth though for me the best was yet to come, cause I am truly a canadian shield type of person. I spent 10 weeks working for narrows lodge, in trade for my last 20 hrs. now i'm not sure were shooting myself in the foot comes in but it sure felt fine while I was there.
I was very clear on the fact that I was to be working for the lodge and had no problem with that cosidering, flying the north usually coincides with fishing lodges/native reserves. througout the whole summer, a good thing to know is that the air service is stationed at the lodge so you get all that hands on dockhand experience, pax manifest loading weighing. throughout the summer. but you have to remember you a lodge employee, so you can't drop your WORK jsut to tie down a plane,
as the summer rolled on, It was getting close to moose haul time, so with a little WORK ETHIC and a good attitude, I was asked to come up to split lake to load unload and organize passengers. It was a blast, its not for everybody, but hey neither is the north. I got to sit in right seat for numerous flights taking in valuable info on anything that came our way
Weather, No docks, rough water, canoes, boats , 68" moose antlers, flooded hunt camps, and a ton of moose meat. now with all the hours I put in working there there was sure to be a bonus, yes sir 16 extra hours 206 172 time plus I was offered a job as a fishing guide. I did not have my commercial at the time so I went for it
Summer of 06, 3 lake trout over 50 lbs, 2700$ american in tips. plus my wages, then at the end of the summer Brett & Ang sat down down with me to see what my plans for the next year were (2007)
anyway I going to be returning to bakers narrows lodge as a pilot for the flyout lakes during the fishing season plus i'll be guidng, then it will be off to the reserves for the moose hunt, and fish haul.
now if anybody can tell me this hasn't been an experience of a lifetime, I would be happy to answer any questions or concerns you may have, you shouldn't let one person with nothing better to do than bitch ruin it for you
sincerly Eelco Riethoff
eelcoriethoff@hotmail.com