We got our clearance the other day in the air from the center controller. It was 'cleared to the ABC vor via present position direct maintain ALT and squawk XPDR'
Why were we cleared to the VOR which is located on the field at our destination airport? Why not just cleared to the airport? Also, since our clearance limit was not the airport itself, should we have asked for an EFC time?
Clearance limit question again
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Stan_Cooper
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invertedattitude
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Well in that case it could be a lot of different reasons. Was the destination airport within the current FIR?
Clearing an airplane to the VOR instead of the airport is usually common unless there is some sort of co-ordination done, if the airport was outside of the FIR, the controller may not know if the VOR was at the airport or not, and if it was on your flight plan, controllers will normally clear to the VOR instead of the airport just out of habit.
If you wanted direct the airport, and were able direct the airport you could have asked for it.
Techincally though you're correct, it should have been "Cleared to XXXX airport via direct XXX VOR direct"
If in doubt ask the questions.
Clearing an airplane to the VOR instead of the airport is usually common unless there is some sort of co-ordination done, if the airport was outside of the FIR, the controller may not know if the VOR was at the airport or not, and if it was on your flight plan, controllers will normally clear to the VOR instead of the airport just out of habit.
If you wanted direct the airport, and were able direct the airport you could have asked for it.
Techincally though you're correct, it should have been "Cleared to XXXX airport via direct XXX VOR direct"
If in doubt ask the questions.
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the_professor
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That would be a strange habit indeed. Practically speaking it would be assumed, in the event of a comm failure in IFR conditions, that you would be landing at the airport associated with the VOR. But that does make for a somewhat confusing clearance.invertedattitude wrote:the controller may not know if the VOR was at the airport or not, and if it was on your flight plan, controllers will normally clear to the VOR instead of the airport just out of habit.
Sometimes you may get clearance to the airport via the VOR (or an NDB), instead of direct for separation purposes, as some of those navaids are located a significant distance from the airport. (Is it YXE where the 'YXE VOR' is around 17nm north of the airport?) However, technically speaking, the airport should have been included as the clearance limit.
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invertedattitude
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Maybe habit is a bad term, but I think generally for separation purposes at the airport itself it would make more sense to clear an airplane to the VOR not the airport, especially if the controller doesn't know if the VOR at that airport is on-field or not.
I'd be curious to hear what most pilots do, when they are cleared "Present position direct "Ottawa" and they are landing there, what do you all plug in? VOR or airport?
I'd be curious to hear what most pilots do, when they are cleared "Present position direct "Ottawa" and they are landing there, what do you all plug in? VOR or airport?
Yah, you're probably thinking of QR, but it's the VLN (Lumsden) VOR that's northwest of QR.
As an aside, a certain U.S. airline seems to like trying to land at the VLN VOR. Well, no, not land, just use the DME reading off VLN as the distance to YQR, and consequently totally misjudge their descent.
As an aside, a certain U.S. airline seems to like trying to land at the VLN VOR. Well, no, not land, just use the DME reading off VLN as the distance to YQR, and consequently totally misjudge their descent.
As a general rule when we get a clearance wholly within the same FIR as the departure point, the clearence limit is a navaid. When leaving the departure FIR the clearance limit becomes the destination airport. The rational is not understood by me or those that I have asked but that is the experience of the last 32 years.
Seeing as it does not state which I personally go to the airport, 99% of the time if you are cleared to a VOR they will state clear ABD VOR direct, or clear ABC airway direct, meaning fly this airway to this fix than direct.invertedattitude wrote: I'd be curious to hear what most pilots do, when they are cleared "Present position direct "Ottawa" and they are landing there, what do you all plug in? VOR or airport?
I should know this but I'm thinking the poster might have been more after this situation.
While enroute GABC you're clearance limit is now the ABC NDB. Usually this occurs while another aircraft is on approach ect. I understand that they have to do this so that we aren't going to start an approach while another aircraft is doing one in event of a comm failure. My main question is what are you expected to do in a comm failure. I know the official answer is hold until your ETA and then complete an approach at the airport. In reality your ETA is usually when you get there, especially on RADAR. We'll assume this is all on RADAR. Myself I'd probably spin a couple times in a hold knowing another a/c is on approach and then fly the approach. While having 7600 in the box.
Also on occasion I'll get in the initial clearance cleared to the ABC VOR. This is usually dealing in non radar environments and I am guessing it is for the same reason.
Input from controllers?
While enroute GABC you're clearance limit is now the ABC NDB. Usually this occurs while another aircraft is on approach ect. I understand that they have to do this so that we aren't going to start an approach while another aircraft is doing one in event of a comm failure. My main question is what are you expected to do in a comm failure. I know the official answer is hold until your ETA and then complete an approach at the airport. In reality your ETA is usually when you get there, especially on RADAR. We'll assume this is all on RADAR. Myself I'd probably spin a couple times in a hold knowing another a/c is on approach and then fly the approach. While having 7600 in the box.
Also on occasion I'll get in the initial clearance cleared to the ABC VOR. This is usually dealing in non radar environments and I am guessing it is for the same reason.
Input from controllers?
The last thing you want to do getting in LAX is fly your filed STAR and hold until your ETA for the approachcpl_atc wrote:I'd say in a radar world that is a reasonable course of action. Anytime someone has a comm failure, the controller(s) are going to have the airport clear before the nordo aircraft gets there (time permitting) and will keep it clear until that a/c is on the ground. Whether or not you bother spinning probably depends on the length of time you've been flying with the failure. If you've had 7600 dialled in for the last half hour of your flight, then the airport should already be clear by the time you get there. If it happened during an initial vector 30nm from the airport, a couple of spins might be prudent to give the controller time to clear traffic.Dave T wrote:In reality your ETA is usually when you get there, especially on RADAR. We'll assume this is all on RADAR. Myself I'd probably spin a couple times in a hold knowing another a/c is on approach and then fly the approach. While having 7600 in the box.
I'd say apply common sense in what you do and comply to the regs as much as possible.Max
