Beating a Dead Horse via: Floats (Advice)

[Adam Oke]

Quick background of my original plan:
Instruct to build time to get the golden 1000PIC (Keep in mind I would love to instruct…so don’t flame about how I would’ve been a piss poor instructor because I’m there to benefit myself) --> Go Bush to be a float driver and jump into something bigger than a 185 due to "experience" -->Progress in the bush scene to Twin Otter on Floats where I would sit as happy as could be.

New Plan:
So searching through and through the forums a while back when I started my CPL training, I figured instructing would be the most logical way to gain access to the aviation industry. In a way it is your socially accepted route of buying a job. Now coming the end of my CPL training, I have last minute decided to not get my instructors ticket but instead to just go up North and begin the Job-hunting.

Here’s my reasoning:
I keep hearing that even after instructing and with all that time, you are still going to work the dock. I keep hearing that time, as an instructor, does not even come close to time in the bush. E.g. My instructor has nearing 3000hrs PIC and 250 Float …. I’ve been told Operators won’t put him on a Twin Otter, but they would put on someone who has all their time in the Bush and JUST breaking 1000hrs in one? What’s your take? Bull-shit? True-shit?

Co-op:
I also have the opportunity to accept a “Co-op” at a Float Op. Essentially work for a company for a few weeks and pay for the time that I fly for them (dead loads, shuttles…what ever there was to be done with the 180). They have been known to hire their co-ops on full time…it caught my attention. Essentially a “socially accepted” way of buying a job. A “Dock PPC” if you will lol . A friend of mine turned me around very quickly on that plan stating: “Never let anyone try you out at YOUR expense” … “You’re now getting into the realm of buying a job….not good for you…not good for the company” What’s you take?

Good Idea or Bad Idea?
So, like I said I would never do. I’m going to try to break into the industry as a 200hr Wonder with a Float ticket and hope for the best. What’s your take on my call. Having flown floats…it’s like none other and convinced me that I want to follow that discipline in the industry. Good call ~ Bad Call…Will I get to that Twotter Faster this route? Would I be better off to instruct and build up some time before heading off into the bush.

Operations Question:
What’s the better choice for a company to work for. A small op or large op. I’ve heard small ops will fly you more and will keep you for the season while large ops may not keep you, and wont fly you much…but if you stay on there would be more room for progression.
Jon Hunting:
Would it be wise to be shooting out resumes to companies while I am nearing the end of my CPL training or just wait until the end of the month when I should be done my CPL

Tip’s I’ve heard thus far:

• - Do not accept a dock job unless it includes an active check-out (freight/empty legs/right seat in a/c that require 2 crew)
  - Do not let anyone try you out at your expense
  - Start with a small Op; If you work hard they will fly you hard
  - Never side step in the industry; you will get no where fast
  - Don’t burn your bridges; This industry is too small
  - Do NOT buy a PPC

That being said… any companies hiring a dock jockey that includes an active check-out?

Feel free to shoot out as much as you want about the bombardment of question. Job-hunting tips, Northern Ontario Company suggestions, etc. etc.

[shimmydampner]

What's your ultimate goal in flying? If it's airlines, go get a ramp job while there are plenty out there and movement is good. If it's the bush, get your float rating and go get a dock job while there are plenty out there and the movement is good. No point taking a dock job away from someone who actually wants a career in the bush when you could jump right into the stream you want to be in.

[Adam Oke]

Ultimate goal would be seating left seat in the Twin Otter. After the Twin Otter if I were to get out of the bush it wouldn't be more than corporate flying. Big Airlines isn't really for me...too much auto pilot and not enough Pilot

I've got the float rating, and I do want to go bush. The only justification for instruction first was to essentially minimize dock time.

[klimman123]

The pay isn't great but you'll have a good chance to get a ramp job in Yellowknife. A few companies up here hire from the ramp. Wait time varies, but I know some guys who have been trained up in 6 months. Twin Otters and bigger. Situations change so 1 to 2 yrs should be expected. Multi-IFR plus the Iatra would be an asset for sure.

[Cat Driver]

" Co-op:
I also have the opportunity to accept a “Co-op” at a Float Op. Essentially work for a company for a few weeks and pay for the time that I fly for them (dead loads, shuttles…what ever there was to be done with the 180). They have been known to hire their co-ops on full time…it caught my attention. Essentially a “socially accept” way of buying a job. A “Ramp PPC” if you will lol . A friend of mine turned me around very quickly on that plan stating: “Never let anyone try you out at YOUR expense” … “You’re now getting into the realm of buying a job….not good for you…not good for the company” What’s you take? "

What do they pay you per hour worked?

What do they charge you per hour on the 180?

[Adam Oke]

What do they pay you per hour worked?

What do they charge you per hour on the 180?

Pay = $0 because it's a co-op.
180 Time...that I'm unsure what the "rental" rate was...I'll look into it.

[Cat Driver]

I still don't quite get it.

You are supposed to work for a Co-OP for nothing, then pay to fly their airplane?

Are they a religious organazation and you will be working for God to aquire points to go to heaven?

[viccoastdog]

That doesn't sound right to me: You work for no paycheque and you have to pay for the time in the 180. How does that differ form buying a job?

And wouldn't the operator be collecting revenue for those deadhead legs or whatever they are? So they're just collecting more from you for palne rental as a bonus! It doesn't sound right to me.

A reputable operator would give a good canditate a dock job, pay them (not too much mind you), take them on trips with deadhead legs (and expose them to the routes along the way), and eventualy get them on-line. Oh sure some of those trips would be on your days off, but you wouldn't have to pay for the time on the plane!

That is how I started (a career switch) 6 years ago, and after 6 months on the dock and in the office I was flying a 185 and 206, and in another few months I was flying Beavers. Now I op- manage and own part of a small float operator with two planes,, going into the third year, loving it, and planning on getting our new pilot the same way as I started. That way the operator has no surprises when they hire a pilot in a segment of the industry that is short on SOPs and long on decision making.

[Adam Oke]

From a business standpoint. It makes sence. They have free labour and make revenue off of the flights done by free labour.

From someone looking for a job. Pros and Cons.

Pro's being: Some bush Experiance for the resume, Time on Type, and the opportunity for being hired by the company.

Cons being: You are essentially buying a job, you're not getting paid, chance of not getting hired after putting money in.

All in all, not the route I'm going to take.

[viccoastdog]

Good for you.

[viccoastdog]

Oh, one more thing; when you have free labour you get exactly what you pay for, maybe a little less.

[shimmydampner]

Ultimate goal would be seating left seat in the Twin Otter. After the Twin Otter if I were to get out of the bush it wouldn't be more than corporate flying. Big Airlines isn't really for me...too much auto pilot and not enough Pilot

I've got the float rating, and I do want to go bush. The only justification for instruction first was to essentially minimize ramp time.

Twin Otter on floats or wheels? You don't want to spend time on the ramp so that leads me to believe you want to be on wheels as opposed to spending time on the dock for floats. Either way, don't be afraid fo working to pay your dues, you'll learn alot on the ground.
I can't say from personal experience but I'd imagine corporate flying is every bit as much auto pilot as the airlines.
Sounds like you want a pretty cush job, if you're trying to avoid working in a ground capacity and corporate is a possible career avenue. Unless you know you can handle living in rat shit holes for years, 7 months of winter per year, isolation, working yourself to the bone every day, getting down and dirty, etc. etc. etc, the real bush is probably not for you.
Sarnia is a shit hole, but you aint' seen nothin yet. Be sure it's what you want.
Does this float op have the initials BNAS? If it's the one it sounds like, stay far away. Paying to work is exactly as stupid as it sounds.

[Adam Oke]

Sorry for the confusion. Strickly float flying from here on end. I'll go through and edit the post to say dock respectivly.

Reason being I threw corporate out there stateing if I were to leave the bush scene, is because in a few years time I don't know where I will be, and I don't know if you can live quite healthly sitting left seat in the twin otter on floats. Oh and I agree that corporate flying...there is too much auto pilot.

I believe it's quite possible to find a active flying dock job. I know a few people that have landed one. So yes, I'm looking for a pretty cush job. I will work the dock, It's the only way to learn, it's the only way to start.

In all honestly who wouldn't be trying to avoid as little ground time as possible. I mean you didn't invest in flight training to get your dock license. Yes one will work the dock for their position, but I don't see why one can't work and use what they put a couple grand into in the mean time.

As for that company you stated, not it, but thanks for the heads up.

[adhc2]

with only a commercial ramp and dock time will maybe get u a float job (slim pickins) , but nothing else. U will need multi IFR but even so your choices and opportunities r limited w/o pic time. The cheapest and most effective way is to get instructors rating get paid and build up command time then get the ratings and work your way into better situations.

[phillyfan]

"My instructor has nearing 3000hrs PIC and 250 Float …. I’ve been told Operators won’t put him on a Twin Otter, but they would put on someone who has all their time in the Bush and JUST breaking 1000hrs in one? What’s your take? Bull-shit? True-shit?"

True-shit? Instructors tend to get a pretty bad rap on the bush side. He would almost be more hireable if he had 500 PIC and 250 Float.

[Crazed Windscreen]

At 250 hours your just like all the other guys with 250 hours out there beating the bushes. You have to offer something to an employer that no one else can in terms of experience. As in customer service jobs, tourism, outfitting or guiding etc...

This helped me get my first job at 211 hours flying a 180.

Never work for nothing, you'll spend enough time working for next to nothing to make up for it.

Take the promise of a check out after you've worked the dock with a grain of salt. Once your on the dock most guy's end up there for the season, then get a shot at a plane the next.

Every operator is different. Some are better than others. If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.

Be patient and good things will happen...is that cliche enough for you?

Good luck

[youngflier]

are you crazy.. working for somebody and paying them for flying thats just degrading all pilots.. your hurting all pilots with that decision

[Adam Oke]

are you crazy.. working for somebody and paying them for flying thats just degrading all pilots.. your hurting all pilots with that decision

And you sir can't read....

[Adam Oke]

Thanks to those so far who have put some intellectual insight into my thread. Greatly appreciated. Keep 'em coming. Again this is not a thread for tearing one apart, but giving them advice. I appreciate it.

[Slipster]

I jumped onto this thread a little late... I had and have the same goal. The Twotter! I as well was faced witht the delema of instructing or direct to the bush. My 2 cents would be to take the money you have set aside for your instr. and find a float plane somewhere and build PIC time on it. Then get to the bush and get checked out for frieght .. And develope your skills.. Try to get on with a company that has a few senior guys on staff and take a couple of seasons there (if the conditions are OK). I have 700 TT M IFR (600) PIC on floats after one season in the bush Im hoping to get checked out this summer on the twotter. I flew a 180 for most of my time and had a great time ..... Dont rush !!! Some of the best flying you will ever get paid for will be in small float planes working for small operators.

Best of luck !

[flyinggirl]

So yes, I'm looking for a pretty cush job. I will work the dock, It's the only way to learn, it's the only way to start.

In all honestly who wouldn't be trying to avoid as little ground time as possible. I mean you didn't invest in flight training to get your dock license. Yes one will work the dock for their position, but I don't see why one can't work and use what they put a couple grand into in the mean time.

Consider your dock work kind of like foreplay..........
I had to cut in and post before even finishing reading this thread. It doesnt sound to me like you are willing to work "hard" enough to make it in the bush. Yes, its very presumptious of me, sorry. But after reading your posts, you DO sound intelligent, but man oh man, your attitude about working the dock and so on....... it just rings a bell. I think I have worked with versions of you before.

Ok, I know I will get flamed on my assumptions. So now i will go and read on and possibly apologize for jumping to conclusions later.

[flyinggirl]

Adam Oke,

Ok ok, I have re-read. Sounds like you want the fastest and easiest way into a floatplane. Sounds like a good goal. Just dont underestimate what working the dock can do for you/teach you.
I had always been told (this was way back when.......) to work hard, be keen and ahead of the game, work hard, dont complain, work hard etc.............. and that is what will getyou in a plane. It worked. For me and many others ahead of me and behind me. So there, thats my advice from my 11 years thus far. Oh ya, dont be afraid to move sideways sometimes. Sometimes you have to move over to get around an obstacle. Oh ya, never ever pay someone you work for any money for them to "let" you fly their floatplane, while they charge YOU and their customer. Thats just crap and I would walk away from that in a heartbeat. Talk about fishing from the company dock.......just in another sense. They are fishin' for suckers.

Good luck

[Adam Oke]

Just dont underestimate what working the dock can do for you/teach you.

Understood.


Thank you for taking the time to read. Yes I am willing to work hard....period....end of flaming you for your and your comment

I supose what I am getting at is that I'm not looking for a stagnant dock position. What I would like to see is an entry level job where you are thrown in a plane at a few points in time while working for the company.

I understand that working the dock gives you a better understanding of a company and how it's run. But jumping into a plane ... be it dual or PIC time would be a great asset. It benifits you in getting accustome with the aircraft, destinations, and procedures would it not?

Maybe my outlook on the dock position is blurred. Is dock really what I interpreted it to be? Loading, Un-Loading, Scrubbin' the floats down, pumping water, fueling....zero flying...etc. ? Or am I being un-realistic when looking for an active flying (obviously minimal) dock job?

[Slipster]

Adam

Dock experience will teach you how the plane is handled on the water. How pilots like there planes loaded how to .... when to .... what to do... why you do.... All of these things were probably not covered in the 50 hr Bush course. As you become comfortable on the dock and show competance you will be given opertunity./ The AV business is small and people pick up on natural talent so think of your dock job as a farm team. If you score a lot of goals and show natural ability you'll find yourself in the majors quickly.


"Believe none of what you hear..and Half of what you see"..

[serviceyourjugs]

My advice to you if your original plan was to be an instructor is to not go to the "bush", as you refer to it. Why? Because my guess is you can't handle it. Why do you think that you should be able to fast track yourself? If you want to use the bush to fast track to something else, you are in for a rude awakening. If you honestly think that fast tracking to that "perfect" job is your path, grow up!
I personally learned more up north in the first few years of my flying career than the subsequent years combined. You should get a job selling tickets at some J31 operator or the equivalent and wait for a right seat job. I dont agree with pilots that do this, and avoid the learning experience and character building that comes with travelling to remote area to be an aviator, but I wouldnt want to depend on a guy like you up there as a coworker.
Sorry man, someone had to tell ya.