"No Delay"

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:23 pm

Just thought I'd throw it out there to the newly minted student pilot permit guys that "No Delay" from a tower/controller means "Do it is as fast as you safely can"

Saw an incident this weekend, where a young pilot apparently didn't understand that part and came a cropper.

electraguy · Post by **electraguy** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:39 pm

Oh Oh Do tell...................

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:43 pm

Student pilots, like teenaged girls, have to learn to say "no" (to ATC).

The PSTAR tries to make this clear, but ...

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:03 am

electraguy wrote:Oh Oh Do tell...................

Let me just say it involves two airplanes on approach and a snowbank.

Pilot_adam · Post by **Pilot_adam** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:51 am

I still remember on my first solo when the tower at CYHM asked me to land along and clear the runway (24) as soon as i can because there was a TC king air turning final behind me !!!! I got a bit nervous and did not want to screw up on my first solo so I just told tower that i will do a normal landing and flared above the numbers, When I look back now and see how you can almost land sideways on those runways in CYHM I still think that I made the right decision on my first solo,I have had few funny incidents at CYHM with ATC for instance the one time I was holding a CRJ Jazz behind me after landing while I was doing Clear off Runway checks(Ya that was me

) ,and by the time I switched to ground frequency the controller was screaming XFR , XFR there is a jet behind you, continue to the a porn !!!!

Most of the controllers at CYHM are friendly people but you get the odd one sometimes who had a bad day and can't take the crap student pilots do !!!

Cheers
Adam

gr8gazu · Post by **gr8gazu** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:06 pm

invertedattitude wrote:Just thought I'd throw it out there to the newly minted student pilot permit guys that "No Delay" from a tower/controller means "Do it is as fast as you safely can"

Saw an incident this weekend, where a young pilot apparently didn't understand that part and came a cropper.

Ok, so I am not so "newly minted" but during a climb the other day, NY TRACON gave us the "no delay in the climb". Being that we were already doing 4000 ft/min at 320 kts, what was he expecting?

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:28 pm

"no delay in the climb" ... already doing 4000 ft/min at 320 kts

Pull to the vertical, and if you've got afterburners, now would be a good time to light them

I remember an ATC'er complained that he asked an F-18 for "best forward speed" and mach 1.7 was the result .. but he did get what he asked for.

Adam Oke · Post by **Adam Oke** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:44 pm

Hedley wrote:Student pilots, like teenaged girls, have to learn to say "no" (to ATC).

Me left, my buddy on the right. Found the signs through out Laurier. Guess if complies with ATC transmissions....sorta.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:58 pm

Hedley.....wise words indeed. I've had tower tell me "no delay clearing..." which I take to mean, they brought someone in a little tight behind me. Not MY problem! I've been temped to reply with "Pound sand....". I'm here for my passengers, not ATC. I'll clear when I'm good and ready. I'm no slow poke.....but like an Italian race driver....I don't need no stinking rear view mirrors!

hifliers · Post by **hifliers** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:06 pm

Some airplanes can't go down and slow down at the same time. So when ATC was told that fact, he asked

"don't you have speedbrakes?"

To which the reply was

" Yes we do, but they are for our screw ups, not yours."

Kilo-Kilo · Post by **Kilo-Kilo** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:16 pm

It really does annoy me when I'm cleared to join short base or final and they are telling me to keep the speed up after every communication while I haven't even gotten down to the top of the white band yet. I would like the airplane to actually stop flying at some point during the landing.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:22 pm

[quote="Hedley

I remember an ATC'er complained that he asked an F-18 for "best forward speed" and mach 1.7 was the result .. but he did get what he asked for.[/quote]

Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it. I bet they were laughing in the mess for weeks about that one.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:34 pm

What I think is hilarious is when ATC is all over you to "keep the speed up ... keep the speed up" when you're LAHSO (!)

I will happily fly 180+mph to the runway threshold. But if I do, I'm not going to make the first fricken turn off - I'm gonna roll most of a mile.

Flying an aircraft visually in busy airspace is a bit like riding a motorcycle, or playing poker. You don't spend much time looking at your hand, or operating your vehicle - you spend all your time looking around at what everyone else is doing.

Unfortunately student pilots usually max their cpu out at 100% just operating their own aircraft. Which is why international airports are rarely the best choice for flight training, despite what FTU's based there will tell you

First, learn to fly the aircraft. Then, learn to fly in traffic.

Same as riding a motorcycle. Best to learn to maneuver the bike in a deserted area using only a small percentage of your cpu, because if you ride into an intersection with your head down, looking for the gearshift lever, you're going to be road kill.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:50 pm

I will also add this, the airplane ended up about 30 feet into knee deep snow which is in between the runway and taxiway, we were asked by tower to check on the occupants since we were basically right beside them and the firehall was going to be at least 45 seconds to a minute, found the airplane at about a 30 deg nose down attitude, no visual damage but it was dark, but the snow was hard enough I (6'4 260lbs) could walk on it without falling through.

I imagine the prop shaft would have to be pulled and checked?

It was interesting having heard the communications I had remarked to my co-worker "Look at that, he really is keeping the speed up"

Followed shortly by "XXX1234 Go around the airplane in front of you is in the snowbank"

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:59 pm

invertedattitude wrote:
It was interesting having heard the communications I had remarked to my co-worker "Look at that, he really is keeping the speed up"

Followed shortly by "XXX1234 Go around the airplane in front of you is in the snowbank"

Maybe our intrepid controller will have learned something as well. I wonder how much of a delay to the aircraft behind was caused by rushing the poor student beyond his or her capabilities. If he'd widened out the trailer and left the student alone it would have been a lot faster in the end. Oh well, the joys of 20/20 hindsight.

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:23 pm

YWG tower most of the time:

- maintain your altitude (which usually is 2-3K above field elevation) while now I'm on base or final.
- keep the speed up
- land and hold short

ummmm, I can do a combination of both, but the 3 of these together is a bit too much. Unless you say No, they most of the time ask it from you.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:42 pm

shitdisturber wrote:
invertedattitude wrote:
It was interesting having heard the communications I had remarked to my co-worker "Look at that, he really is keeping the speed up"

Followed shortly by "XXX1234 Go around the airplane in front of you is in the snowbank"
Maybe our intrepid controller will have learned something as well. I wonder how much of a delay to the aircraft behind was caused by rushing the poor student beyond his or her capabilities. If he'd widened out the trailer and left the student alone it would have been a lot faster in the end. Oh well, the joys of 20/20 hindsight.

While he didn't outright say it, his first question to us was "Is everyone all right?" and there was genuine concern in his voice, I'm sure he felt guilty, although he has every right to ask a pilot to do what he did.

These instructors/pilots that are teaching/flying a light single at full flaps 5 miles out is just plain stupid.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:46 pm

[quote="invertedattitude

While he didn't outright say it, his first question to us was "Is everyone all right?" and there was genuine concern in his voice, I'm sure he felt guilty, although he has every right to ask a pilot to do what he did.

These instructors/pilots that are teaching/flying a light single at full flaps 5 miles out is just plain stupid.[/quote]

I'm sure he was genuinely concerned, no one wants to see an accident let alone be involved, however peripherally, in one. It's unfortunate we can't put a giant "L" on student airplanes like the English have on student vehicles so the controllers know to give extra spacing. Maybe TC should come up with a transponder code for instructional flights so controllers know what they're up against. Since that makes sense, I'm sure it won't happen.

As for long finals with flaps, keep in mind that students learn by rote and even once licenced don't have the confidence to depart from what they've learned. While you or I would have no problem approaching at cruise power and then throttling back to idle while pitching up for flap speed; that's way beyond the capabilities of a student or even probably most pilots with less than 200 hours. I've always been amused watching students coming back into YYC under a hurry up order as their stress levels climb when I won't let them throttle back or drop flaps; you can practically see them vibrating. After a few of those they realize it can be done, but the first couple are always entertaining!

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:39 am

Good points, man I need to get back flying someday soon, currency is coming.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:23 am

ATC reminds me of Nick Cage in the movie _The Weatherman_ who is crapped on from a great height by an amazing number of people.

Different aircraft types have very different capabilities and limitations, and ATC honestly doesn't have a clue what they are. Complicating things is that an experienced pilot in one type of aircraft can safely do things that inexperienced pilots in the same type of aircraft simply cannot, which baffles ATC even more. Ever seen Bob Hoover fly?

All ATC can do is ask, and all pilots can do is politely but firmly refuse, if it beyond their (or their aircraft) capabilities, despite how much ATC may pressure them to do it.

IFRATC · Post by **IFRATC** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:26 am

Generally speaking if a controller has instructed you to give best forward spped and subsequently asks for "best rate in the climb" or no delay its because his sphincter (spelling?) is beginning to tighten up just a bit!!!
So in the interest of flight safety it might be wise to ask "do you need the speed or the altitude centre?". You might even get a nice vector as a resultant!!!

My take on it,
IFRATC

IFRATC · Post by **IFRATC** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:29 am

BTW,
ATC does have a very good understanding of aircraft performance whatever type and phase of flight they are in. Our knowledge is broad based for all types but we don't just work one type and know all the specs like you drivers on a single type for the most part. (How many times can I say type!?!).

IFRATC

the_professor · Post by **the_professor** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:07 pm

IFRATC wrote:BTW,
ATC does have a very good understanding of aircraft performance whatever type and phase of flight they are in. Our knowledge is broad based for all types but we don't just work one type and know all the specs like you drivers on a single type for the most part. (How many times can I say type!?!).

IFRATC

Agreed. You cannot be a controller without a good understanding of aircraft performance. It factors into your planning at all times, and into a great many control decisions. Do we need to know the difference in stall speeds between two medium-sized twin turboprops? No. But we do know that a given type climbs/cruises/descends/approaches within certain parameters 99% of the time, and that is what is important to a controller.

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:07 pm

I think ATC knows more than they let on sometimes.

I departed YYC full to the brim (maybe a little past) on a nice hot July afternoon and the TWR asked for a right turn out as soon as able - no delay - jet traffic to depart behind you. I keyed the mike, said my ident basically laughing. The tone in his "Roger" was all I needed to hear to know "do what ya gotta do - the Jet can wait" - but they do have to ask.

Pilot in command. Can't do it - tell them. Although while on approach if you can't keep up/fit in, I'm sure they have a nice open piece of airspace somewhere for you to get it all sorted out available.

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:10 pm

BTW an 18 doing 1.7 in response to "keep the speed up", urban legand. It don't work that way.

"No Delay"

"No Delay"

do tell

Re: do tell

Re: "No Delay"