Cross Winds....are they a mystery?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:15 pm

These have to be rumors right? A top aviation college limiting students to five knot cross winds? They can get signed off for fifteen knots, but that lapses as they seem to forget how to fly, over time. Instructors, if your students can't handle a cross wind (assuming they can fly solo) of more than five knots, you should all be canned! YOU are doing something wrong in your instructing! Teach....that's what they pay you to do. I know, I'm going to get slagged for this. These guys fly low wing aircraft.....lets solve the mystery of the dreaded cross wind!
This is why Cat advocates taking some tail wheel time....so you know why God gave you hands and feet?

Crazymax · Post by **Crazymax** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:19 pm

Doc wrote:These have to be rumors right? A top aviation college limiting students to five knot cross winds? They can get signed off for fifteen knots, but that lapses as they seem to forget how to fly, over time. Instructors, if your students can't handle a cross wind (assuming they can fly solo) of more than five knots, you should all be canned! YOU are doing something wrong in your instructing! Teach....that's what they pay you to do. I know, I'm going to get slagged for this. These guys fly low wing aircraft.....lets solve the mystery of the dreaded cross wind!
This is why Cat advocates taking some tail wheel time....so you know why God gave you hands and feet?

Doc, on PFT (Primary Flight Training, in the Canadian Forces) we are restricted to 5 kts cross wind at all time for solo. As the traning progresses, we are allowed in bigger x-wind. It's not a big deal to re-check a student just to make sure he is still ok for x-wind (yes, you do forget how to do stuff if you don't practice it) and make sure he won't wreck a plane. I don't see what's wrong with this. As long as they practice in big enought crosswind with or without instructor, it shouldn't make a difference.

Max

Tango01 · Post by **Tango01** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:22 pm

We're building vaginas, not pilots.

Crazymax · Post by **Crazymax** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:23 pm

Tango01 wrote:We're building vaginas, not pilots.

Define "we"

max

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:01 pm

Doc, when I owned a flight school twenty years ago this problem with teaching X/wind landings had already started to be an issue so I put a J3 Cub on line with the intention of starting all new students on the Cub until they were ready for solo.

It did not work out due to resistance to training on a tail wheel airplane from a lot of my instructors reinforced by a couple of DFTE's who were against the idea.....because they were not comfortable with flying a tail wheel airplane and felt that the nose draggers were the safest way to train.

Anyhow it all fell apart because I just could not convince the instructors to train on the Cub to solo.

Another strange thing I had an almost new Grumman Cheetah, bought it with only 250 hours TT on the thing.....most of the instructors did not like the Cheetah either, go figure....

So I bought a Piper Tomahawk and I'll be God Dammed if they didn't like it either because they didn't like the way it did spins....

After about six years of baby sitting flight instructors I finally sold the school, it just was not worth the bother trying to run it.

When I sold out I had two C172's three C150's one Tomahawk one Cheetah one Piper Geronimo and a Robinson R22 on floats.

Of all the flying businesses I have been involved in the flight school was the most frustrating and least profitable by far.

Oh, as to safety some of the instructors couldn't fly the Cub but they were very safe because they always turned on all the lights before they started to taxi.....you have to admit that having the nav lights on in the blazing sunlight of summer is proof that you really understand safety .......

Cat

o

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:24 pm

Come on now Cat, would you have us believe that you would put up with that crap from your employee's?

I thought Instructing was terrible these days, Instructors that couldn't fly a cub?

Well Cat I guess you witnessed first hand the deteriation of flight training as we know it.

BTW I would love to get to instruct on a Cub heck a tail dragger period, the most rewarding flying I have done was on a Citabria.

There's an idea, flight schools "only" train on tail draggers for the PPL then you get "checked out" on a tricycle gear. This would weed out the bad Pilots/Instructors.

Lurch

Blue Side Down · Post by **Blue Side Down** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:30 pm

Hence continues a world of mediocrity.

dangerous · Post by **dangerous** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:31 pm

Sounds like you had some pretty fussy instructors Cat. Man, if my boss bought a new airplane, I'd jump at the chance to get checked out and start flying it. And if I whined about the airplanes that my company operates, I'd be expected to be shown to the door!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:51 pm

" Sounds like you had some pretty fussy instructors Cat. "

I don't know if you could call them " fussy " I think the root problem was they were "structured" by the training program they were a product of.

In the end I decided it was better to just get rid of the school rather than remain stuck in a culture I could not see any future in remaining in.

Cat

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:53 pm

Delete

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:59 pm

crazymax....I was talking about a fourth year student....not a guy with twenty-five hours.
T01....bingo.

Krashman · Post by **Krashman** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:25 am

Who is considered to be the "top flight schools" I know that at Harv's in Manitoba students just learn to deal with crosswinds right from day one. The runway is north south but very often are there winds from the northwest and south east. LOTS of X Wind

There are two Citabrias at the school and I personally have flown both after I was considered to be

"structured" by the training program they were a product of.

This sure opened my eyes and made my crosswind landings, althought good already, great in many difficult situations

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:40 am

I am sure that many people in white shirts with gold bars on their shoulder will disagree, but ...

IMHO you shouldn't have a private pilot's licence if you can't land when the windsock is straight out across the runway.

You certainly shouldn't have a commercial licence, and there is NO WAY you should have an instructor's licence if you can't land a light trainer in a 15+ knot direct crosswind.

londonontario · Post by **londonontario** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:07 pm

well im just starting up flying i heard this skill is the hardest to master. i think ill stay to flying planes on a blight sunny, windles day

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:14 pm

Landing in a cross wind is like sex.

Most pilots can do it, but aren't that great.

It takes practice to do it well.

-istp

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:28 pm

Don't run and hide from crosswinds. When the wind is howling across the runway, instead of going home, get a (senior) instructor and ask him to show you how to land on the upwind main only. If he can't do it, switch schools until you find one that can.

Crazymax · Post by **Crazymax** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:39 pm

londonontario wrote:well im just starting up flying i heard this skill is the hardest to master. i think ill stay to flying planes on a blight sunny, windles day

Untill the day you get caught by weather and have to do it. Oops.

Max

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:52 pm

Why is this even being discussed, no one should be issued a PPL unless they are profficient in flying at least to the demonstrated X/wind limits of the airplane they are taught in.

Anyone who can not understand this basic fact should not have a license to teach.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:03 pm

Half the problem with that, my good Cat, is the instructors probably can't fly in that much of a cross wind themselves. Seems they are a little timid in the face of such a challenge?
It's easy guys....just drop a wing, and feed in some foot!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:25 pm

" Half the problem with that, my good Cat, is the instructors probably can't fly in that much of a cross wind themselves. "

How about when they are Class 1's or Class 2's?

Wouldn't that mean they are capable of flying in a X/wind at the demonstrated limits of those training airplanes?

What do you do when you get an FO that can't fly Doc?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:36 pm

At the risk of sounding like a "horn blower", I specialize in cross winds. I just bloody love a good cross wind! If you know anybody I fly with ask them. I can (and do) come out of the sky like a wounded whale if there is no cross wind! I do cross wind "ballets" to try and teach them.
And, I have a FO that always used to have it a little sideways at touch down. They(his flight school)let him down on the cross wind thing. And I had a tough time with him, because I find cross winds so automatic, that I can't understand the problems some have with them?
It's been so long since I instructed, I don't remember if I had to demo a cross wind landing on a ride or not? A class 1 or 2 should surely have it all figured out? And I'd bet Seneca has mostly class 1's?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:39 pm

Maybe it's the tail wheel stuff again? I find a Dak easier to cross wind land, than a Beech? The Hawker is really easy in a cross wind too. Bet an RJ, with that narrow gear, could have it's moments.....and needs to be done just right?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:51 pm

" Bet an RJ, with that narrow gear, could have it's moments.....and needs to be done just right? "

I never flew one but was in the jump seat one day in Cape Town when they had a real bastard of a X/wind and the pilot did a real good job of a crabbed approach and flare with a perfect application of rudder that resulted in a zero drift touch down.

In South Africa the RJ was called the Canadian Wing Dragger.

Yeh the Dak is a real pilots dream.....ever flown the Grumman Turbo Goose, now that sucker really is demanding in a X/wind both for take off and landing on pavement.

If you like X/wind landings you would get a real woody flying the Turbo Goose.

Rudderless · Post by **Rudderless** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:24 pm

It's all about confidence. Wait for a day with a good sporting crosswind and go out and do a bunch of takeoffs and landings. Aircraft have demonstrated crosswind values, that's your guidance. Work on your technique, and it will become second nature like anything else. You never know when you will need that skill (probably with pax on board!)

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:34 pm

" It's all about confidence. Wait for a day with a good sporting crosswind and go out and do a bunch of takeoffs and landings. Aircraft have demonstrated crosswind values, that's your guidance. Work on your technique, and it will become second nature like anything else. "

Why would it not be reasonable to assume that anyone with a pilot license has been taught how to correct for a X/wind before they are given a pilot license?

I'm God Dammed if I would want any pilot teaching him / herself how to land in a X/wind in any airplane I own.

Cross Winds....are they a mystery?

Cross Winds....are they a mystery?

Re: Cross Winds....are they a mystery?