Transponder in uncontrolled airspace

YACdirect · Post by **YACdirect** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:07 pm

Situation: Departing YXL VFR on a nice day - planning to go to, say, 5,500 feet.

I take off and YXL FSS gives me a code 0377.

My question is when am I expected to return to 1200? I have been holding onto my assigned code until I enter class G airspace but am wondering if Center (cause they can see me on radar) are expecting me to be a 1200 target as soon as I clear the zone since I am not in contact with ATS?

Just curious - does it even really matter when I switch codes?

NJ · Post by NJ » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:15 pm

I can speak for in YZF. We're just starting to give a/c discreet squawk codes on departure. Once we clear you en-route, then that's a good time to switch to 1200. If we want you to keep the same squawk code (local trainers, city tours etc) then we'll usually tell you to keep the same squawk code, but most of the guys up here do that automatically.

Centre is probably more concerned about whether or not you have mode C and if that altitude can be verified than your transponder code.

Offset · Post by **Offset** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:05 pm

If your flying in a busy area with multiple Control Towers (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal) hang on to that code. If one Tower issues a code to an aircraft and enters the aircraft ident in the system, the aircraft ident is displayed in the data tag for the aircraft squawking that code. If you contact another tower 5 minutes later and are still squawking the same code the new controller will already have your data tag displayed.

lexx · Post by **lexx** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:00 am

Offset wrote:If your flying in a busy area with multiple Control Towers (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal) hang on to that code. If one Tower issues a code to an aircraft and enters the aircraft ident in the system, the aircraft ident is displayed in the data tag for the aircraft squawking that code. If you contact another tower 5 minutes later and are still squawking the same code the new controller will already have your data tag displayed.

Yes, but with an incorrect CJS, and other units may assume the aircraft in question is being provided some sort of radar service, or at least talking to a control unit when in fact they are not when outside a control zone.

I use to do this. If an aircraft on a Kitchener issued code was going to London, I'd leave them on the same code for the reasons you mention. Unfortunately on one occassion some time later, another controller cleaning up, or deleting "coasted" codes in Kitchener, deleted the aircraft in question since he'd coasted some time earlier from our radar. The aircraft was actually in the circuit at London and lost the tag.

Additionally, if a pilot is left with a discreet code and is "between towers" (no control service) they often think they are getting some service because of the discreet code.

From strictly a legal standpoint, if an aircraft left my control zone and something happened in uncontrolled airspace, whether weather related, near collision, or worse, I'd hate to be visited by some investigator wondering why the aircraft's transponder was set to a code I'd issued.

When they leave my zone on a code, they most often get "Cleared enroute, radar service terminates, squawk 1200".

Just trying to plug a hole or two in the swiss cheese.

Lexx
http://www.ykf.ca

Offset · Post by **Offset** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:31 pm

I use to do this. If an aircraft on a Kitchener issued code was going to London, I'd leave them on the same code for the reasons you mention. Unfortunately on one occassion some time later, another controller cleaning up, or deleting "coasted" codes in Kitchener, deleted the aircraft in question since he'd coasted some time earlier from our radar. The aircraft was actually in the circuit at London and lost the tag.

Simple solution to this problem "F8", issue another code. Happens to me every day where I get aircraft squawking an stale code. However, I prefer issuing a new code to the minority that have this happen, than the majority that don't.

YACdirect · Post by **YACdirect** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:41 pm

Thanks for all your info but I don't know if it really applies to my situation. I depart YXL (advisory only, no tower) on a company monitored VFR itinerary and am issued a code. I clear the zone and I'm on my own until I get back - no towers, no center (unless I'm high enough for following but that's a different story) etc. I know YXL's FSS has said they are going to be using their new radar feed more and will be issuing codes to any transponder equipped aircraft - I am wondering if I am expected to squawk vfr when departing the control zone or when clear of the overlying class E airspace surrounding the zone?

As an aside, I was given a code once coming in about 20 miles out and the FSS guy replied (after ident on the transponder) with "thanks, position verified" - I asked what the difference is between "position verified" and "radar identified" to which all he had to say was "very little, actually"

Anyone care to elaborate as I am confused how I am supposed to treat our VFR advisory service providing this service. Don't get me wrong, it's a great idea and am glad it's there... but it seems to fall somewhere in between "VFR advisory" and "VFR control"

An ATS point of view (especially if anyone here works at YXL FSS or YWG center) would be appreciated.

Thanks

YACdirect · Post by **YACdirect** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:45 pm

NJ wrote:I can speak for in YZF. We're just starting to give a/c discreet squawk codes on departure. Once we clear you en-route, then that's a good time to switch to 1200.

Just want to add something else: I am never "cleared on route" since I am VFR doing my own thing out here in the middle of nowhere. The only time I hear cleared on route is when I am departing YWG or YQT VFR, or from YWG center and have been receiving flight following.

YACdirect · Post by **YACdirect** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:56 pm

thanks cpl_atc

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:38 pm

cpl_atc wrote: The difference is bad phraseology. They should be saying "radar identified" if that's what is taking place. "Position verified" is meaningless.

FSS has been specifically instructed not to say "radar identified" to an aircraft. The basic reasoning, by my understanding, is that some pilots may be confused and believe that they're recieving radar control service. Somehow, saying "squawk ident" doesn't have any chance of confusing them, though...

Of course, our MANOPs has criteria for radar identifying aircraft, so that is what we're doing, but there are no phraseology examples, and we've been ordered by management not to say "radar identified".

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:14 am

The whole concept of allowing FSS to squawk and assign discrete codes but not identify is retarded. They shouldn't be squawking anyone IMHO. IF the PC screen is for a better picture then leave it at that and use it for just that. If it's that busy put in a tower.

Unless ATC assigned that code don't worry about changing to 1200 when your done with "control-lite". I don't even know why they assign discrete codes to begin with - can't get the picture without a full tag???

This whole creeping of responsibilities confuses the hell out of alot of pilots - not just the rookies.

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:45 am

FamilyGuy wrote:The whole concept of allowing FSS to squawk and assign discrete codes but not identify is retarded. They shouldn't be squawking anyone IMHO. IF the PC screen is for a better picture then leave it at that and use it for just that. If it's that busy put in a tower.

So should have radar, but not actually ensure that certain targets belong to certain planes?

"control-lite"

FSS isn't "control-lite", and shouldn't be trying to be. Contrary to your apparent opinion, some of us actually like our jobs just fine the way they are, and don't have a big hang-up about not being controllers.

Pygmie · Post by **Pygmie** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:49 pm

Wait, when did YXL get a radar put in? Or did they just get a feed from the HD site?

YACdirect · Post by **YACdirect** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:44 pm

It's a feed from Dryden I am assuming since it is useless below about 2000 asl or so.

Thanks again for the answers!

pokaroo · Post by **pokaroo** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:43 pm

cpl_atc wrote: PS: Should I seek counselling since I was able to cite the Manop reference without the book in front of me? Somehow I think so.

No it justs means that while at cornwall you didn't wake up on saturday and sunday mornings with a hangover like the rest of us.

Braun · Post by **Braun** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:05 pm

Haha, or you are like me and memeorized about 80+ articles so far word for word.

Offset · Post by **Offset** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:24 pm

No it justs means that while at cornwall you didn't wake up on saturday and sunday mornings with a hangover like the rest of us.

I didn't know there was such a thing as a Saturday morning at NCTI!

Braun · Post by **Braun** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:27 am

cpl_atc wrote:
Braun wrote:Haha, or you are like me and memeorized about 80+ articles so far word for word.
I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to? Do you mean 80 threads on this board?

The amount of memorization both during and after Cornwall certainly was staggering. Lots and lots of work. But not unnecessary -- to be competent you need to have a huge amount of information instantly available at your fingertips. Not necessarily unlike the information a pilot must have available to them. The compressed nature of the ATC training sure made it seem like more. Whether or not that is the reality is hard to judge.

Braun: If you know The Rooster, PM me.

Yeah I an referring to MANOPS, we are about 1/4 done. But we are IFR so I don't know the difference in the training from VFR.

takeachance · Post by **takeachance** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:59 am

We always use "squawk ident and say your altitude"...and no one is ever "radar identified", we just say "roger ident" . The airspace here is pretty busy and we've been told to do this to confirm that the altitude is correct so that we can use it for passing traffic using the radar. If we didn't get them to squawk ident we're not able to use that altitude in passing traffic. Though this should be valid regardless of whether it is a busy site or not.

We also assign a code before you enter or leave the zone, and no one has made any specific mention of whether to say "squawk 1200" or to just let them go along with their assigned code. That being said, since there is no clear cut rule that I am aware of, some people tell vfr guys to "squawk 1200" if they report clear about 15 miles out. I would say that 90 percent of the vfr guys automatically squawk 1200 by 15 or 20 miles out from the airport.

Center will all us and ask us if a vfr target has been verified, so thats another reason for identifying the targets.

Just my 2cents from this part of the country. I know it seems to be different everywhere you travel.

Braun · Post by **Braun** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:17 am

Very possible, doing the third tomorrow, I probably know more than I thought then. It's worth it though!

YACdirect · Post by **YACdirect** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:38 am

Sioux Lookout has been using this procedure, from what I have noticed thus far:

- If I have not been assigned a code -or- asked to confirm altitude and squawk ident, the procedure FSS uses is the same as it always has. Ask both pilots for their position and altitude and try to either get one of us to see the other or make some sort of plan to avoid a conflict.

- If I have been "identified" using the above methods, FSS will still use the same procedures but sometimes include something like "King Air is at your 10 oclock for three miles through three tousand" or something to that effect. I'll sometimes hear FSS call that no conflict exists because of each aircraft's altitude.

They seem to be using it more to supplement their existing protocols, which is good and what I am assuming it is intended to do (rather than replace them).

As an aside my transponder was blinking away descending through 1,900 today right over the airport... don't know how long it kept being interrogated as I had a more pressing issue at hand.

takeachance · Post by **takeachance** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:45 pm

"RADAR IDENTIFICATION: The process of ascertaining that a particular target is the radar return from a specific aircraft."

I guess it is exactly the same then... but we're told not to say radar identified... just roger ident. We've just been told don't say "radar identified"... like you said.. just semantics.

This is playing with semantics I guess, but if you're squawking someone to confirm their target, then they are radar identified. Whether you actually say it on the frequency is the issue I suppose. Although as a pilot I would be confused as to why you're asking me to squawk ident but then never confirm that I'm identified.

We never have a problem here, but 90 percent of the people who fly in here are used to the way we run things, used to how busy it gets, and used to the tools we use to pass traffic. That said, I don't think it's ideal, since the whole NavCan idea is to have the same standards across the country... but in real life... we know if sometimes differs... each unit has some specific operational differences.

Having the radar is a great tool for us, and I think, enables us to do a much better job, especially with the number of movements.

Our basic radar traffic advisory: "Traffic, Citation, your 3 o'clock, 3 miles, 3200 ft inbound at 240 kts"

Sometimes speed isn't ness., or inbound/outbound/direction etc.. but that would be an example of a radar traffic advis... You give the traffic relative to each other, not to the airport. The other way would more like the traffic at a non radar FSS site where we would just have the info the pilots gave us for traffic... reported 12 to the north 1 min ago inbound at 3200 ft.

YACdirect · Post by **YACdirect** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:54 pm

cpl_atc wrote:
Still-in-YXL wrote:As an aside my transponder was blinking away descending through 1,900 today right over the airport... don't know how long it kept being interrogated as I had a more pressing issue at hand.
If you saw an interrogation at 1900', it was almost definitely an interrogation originating from another aircraft's TCAS, and not the Dryden radar site.

Ah, never thought of that

GilletteNorth · Post by **GilletteNorth** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:08 am

The squawk codes I assign in La Ronge are only for aircraft I know are going on local training flights and returning. I load them with information (A/C ident, type, destination YVC and special tag TRAINER). YVC has a forestry base for CL215 and Convair water bombers, as well as AC95 and BE55 spotter planes. It gets very busy at the beginning of the season with all the training flights. Knowing who and where the 'big tin' is helps alot. I regularly tag local company training flights as well. Coming from a site that didn't have NARDS to one that does, is like moving up from an old 386 computer to a Pentium 3.

SmokinJoe · Post by **SmokinJoe** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:41 pm

Since we're on the topic of flying in and out of YXL I just want to say to you YWG and YXL FSS folks thanks. You guys do a hell of a job at trying to get everyone in especially when the wx is crap. Keep up the good work!

NewtonCentre · Post by **NewtonCentre** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:12 am

If you are given a discreet code by an FSS, then we don't see your data tag on our radar screens, so I don't really care if you keep your code or not. There have been times where I'm passing traffic and I notice that the aircraft involved (who I'm not talking to) has a discreet code. In this case, I turn on my NARDS (the auxilary radar that the FSS use, we have available as backup) and often I'll see the data tag on the NARDS. Though I don't know for sure, I might add the information in my traffic passing "possibly a beech baron". So by keeping it, it might give another pilot a bit more info. Also, the datetag often has the point of departure and destination (depending if the flight plan was completely filled out by the FSS who inputed it). So it gives me a bit more information as to where you came from and where your going - not that it usually matters.

If you change to 1200 when you enter class G airspace, that's fine too. If you think that the centre might want to know about you, or if there is a lot of traffic around or destined for your destination - feel free to keep it.