New bird needs help

PSTAR · Post by **PSTAR** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:46 pm

I started my flight training just a while ago. I'm almost half way through the PPL course and planning to continue until I get my CPL + MIFR.

The thing it is expensive and the work I do is low-paying. I'm wondering now if there's a cheap way to do training.

My instructor told me once that he could 've taught me on his friend's airplane at cheaper rate, but he couldn't after I had registred at a school.

I'm wondering how it works. Are there instructors who work independently from flying schools for their own? and do I just rent an aircraft or buy block time and find some instructor to teach me.

And if that how it works, should I get my hours in my log book that I already did certified by school then take it with me so when I fly with my instructor, he can signs it.

I will be really grateful if someone can tell me about this as I'm new to everything.

Many thanks to everyone.

dangerous · Post by **dangerous** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:14 am

Talk to Niss, or see the "I need an instructor in the Barrie area" post.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:38 am

In the USA, any flight instructor can legally instruct on any aircraft (his own, someone else's).

However the rules about flight training are much more strict in Canada - Transport takes a very dim view of "freelance" instructing.

What your instructor is proposing is illegal (see below) and has nothing to do with "registering" at a school.

At some point, likely Transport will require that all flight instruction be conducted at FTU's, where it can be heavily monitored and controlled.

In the meantime, we're getting pretty close to that, and here is the applicable regulation:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#406_03

Read paragraph (2)(b)(iii):

(iii) using an aircraft that has been obtained from a person who is at arm’s length from the flight instructor, and the training is other than toward obtaining a pilot permit - recreational or a private pilot licence.

Transport Canada Enforcement trolls through these online discussions, and has been known to take action on what it reads here. Do not be surprised if you are contacted by a Transport Inspector in regard to this matter. I might suggest you retain an aviation attorney who specializes in these matter, and communicate through them to avoid incriminating yourself.

This might sound a little over the top, but a friend of mine just got a $50,000 fine in the mail from Transport. You can pay for a lot of lawyers with $50,000.

niss · Post by **niss** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:06 am

IIRC the only way you can train on an aircraft only if it is part of an FTU or you own it, or a family member owns it. Unless it is for anything other than your PPL like Hedleys quote outlines.

I have a 50% share in a 1966 Piper Cherokee 140, I have found ownership works for me but it is not for everyone, I plan on writing a thread of my experience in purchasing an a/c at the request of a few board members. Still working on it, its not a small thing! lol.

One thing you can do is try to find an a/c with shares for sale, depending on how its fractured you can buy 50%, 25%, 10%, 5%, even 1% should be enough to legally train on but it might be hard to get the plane as often as you would like. I am lucky, my partner is an amazing guy, and we have not stepped on each others toes in almost a year of partnership. Personality and compatability is everything.

That said this all requires a bigger start up cost. If I were you I would apply for a COPA scholarship (if you are still eligable) and just get your PPL through a FTU with their a/c. Once you have your PPL you can get a loan for your CPL and with that find a training a/c to purchase. Thisway you can get your PPL without the headaches of owning a plane and this will allow you to get a little bankroll going before taking the plunge.

Owning an A/C isnt neccessarily a rich mans game.....but money certainly does help.

Goodluck, I am still doing my PPL so I know how it feels.

PM me if you need any more info.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:45 am

Just like niss did, buying part of an aircraft is the cheapest way to get flight training. When you're done the flight training, you should be able to sell your share for about what you paid for it.

If you purchase 10% or even 5% of an aircraft, that pretty clearly qualifies you as an "owner" and you can receive freelance instruction on it. End of discussion.

Transport Enforcement may not be very happy with you, because you are clearly complying with the letter of the law, but keep in mind they WROTE the law, so presumably it is the way they wanted it to be.

I know an instructor in Kingston did this about 15 years ago. Was always on a temp C of R - he'd sell a "share" of his buck fifty to each student for $100, and he guaranteed they'd get the $100 back at the end of their flight training when they sold the "share" back to him. I remember at one point he had 14 names on the C of R at one point. Transport hated his guts because he was a smart guy, and very carefully obeyed the letter of the regulations. It's for people like him that they change the regulations.

happily.retired · Post by **happily.retired** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:31 am

What part of the new regs would prohibit that set up? The students are still part owners?

But back to the original question. Can you find any way of claiming the (partial) purchase of an aircraft as a business expense? A friend/family member who could justify it and you buy a small portion of the biz for a short time to make it all legit? That'd be helpfull for taxes but even if not you sould really look into buying. a/c hold their value extremely well so as long as it still has two wings when you are done with it you shouldn't lose any money. Just make sure you have an AME you trust inspect it first. If she pops a cylinder through the cowling during your training you'll pay dearly (but you'll at least get some real emergency experience

)

If you are planning on buying something do it sooner rather than later. Every flight you do on a school plane between here and there is just costing you extra money. You might actually have better luck getting a loan for an a/c than for your training because then the bank at least has the plane to repo if things go wrong (No insult intended there. That's just how bankers think about everyone) I actually had a loans rep tell me that the only reason I was turned down for a student line of credit was because I was in aviation. They felt that the huge loan to get into a low paying industry was an undesirable situation for them.

One more thing if you do buy, talk to an accountant. They can be miracle workers with taxes, training expenses and other legal loopholes that can save you thousands but still ensure you are completely legal.

If you do chose to buy and need partners, put a shout out on avcanada. Someboby's bound to know somebody who'll happily join for a share.

If you are planning to go through a college for your CPL/MIFR ignore everything we've just said. I'm aware of only one that'll allow you to train on your own a/c and I wouldn't recomend using them anyways.

Good Luck!

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:17 am

happily.retired wrote:What part of the new regs would prohibit that set up? The students are still part owners?

Nothing... yet. But TC makes it very clear on how they view this sort of ownership activity, as well as the idea of "freelance" instructing. Currently they're looking at making freelancers a lot less profitable unless they'd be charging Cat Driver type rates to fund their freelance operation. One thing will be the record keeping abilities of freelance instructors making it near impossible to run off the tailgate of a truck.

While it will be difficult for them to change the regs so that students won't be able to learn on their own aircraft - its not outside the realm of possibility, or probability for that matter. Something as small as bringing in a change on what "ownership" of an aircraft is defined as in regards to flight training is one. Not to mention making it as dificult as possible (re: expensive) to change who is registered as an owner on the C of R to make the cost of what our enterprising instructor does prohibitive.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:51 am

Hedley, what are you saying about that fine? Tell us more!

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:57 pm

The $50,000 fine that Transport levied against my friend is, needless to say, being appealed. Thus details should be discussed at the Tribunal, not here.

Transport is making it very clear that they want him out of aviation, or preferably, entirely out of Canada, just like they drove Jason Newburg out of the country, who is a fine young pilot and mechanic. Last I heard, he was instructing on the Pitts S-2B at Embry-Riddle University in Florida.

It's worth noting that the Pitts was donated to Embry-Riddle by another Canadian. So, instead of having this valuable aerobatic resource in Canada, Transport has happily driven it out. Less aviation is better aviation, after all, according to Transport.

Not sure where in the Aeronautics Act that the thugs at Transport are empowered to disenfranchise citizens, but that doesn't seem to slow them down.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:22 pm

" Nothing... yet. But TC makes it very clear on how they view this sort of ownership activity, as well as the idea of "freelance" instructing. Currently they're looking at making freelancers a lot less profitable unless they'd be charging Cat Driver type rates to fund their freelance operation. "

I am not a freelance flight instructor.

I do not even have a flight instructor rating as it lapsed 42 years ago.

I only give advanced flight instruction to licensed pilots.

Therefore there is nothing in the regulations whereby TC can have any say in what I do.

And furthermore I have not flown in Canada for money in over ten years.

However I do plan on offering advanced instruction when I get my plane finished, and it will not fall under TC's flight school rules.

Cat

YACdirect · Post by **YACdirect** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:20 pm

Hang on - now maybe I missed something big here and if so please accept my "oops - sorry"

A Class 3 can't freelance in Canada???

Adam Oke · Post by **Adam Oke** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:45 pm

A class 4 can't because they have to be under supervision. To my understanding class 3's and up can certainly freelance.

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:15 pm

A class three can freelance, provided the student, (or one of their family members) owns the a/c. An a/c from a 3rd party can be used as long as the instruction isn't towards the RPP or PPL. This may change in the future. The impetus for the change isn't coming internally from TC, but instead from ATAC (thats to say ATAC is putting pressure on TC for the reg changes).

YACdirect · Post by **YACdirect** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:40 pm

Adam Oke wrote:A class 4 can't because they have to be under supervision. To my understanding class 3's and up can certainly freelance.

That's what I thought (it's onyl been 4 years since my class 4 training!) but the news about the student owning the aircraft is new to me.

Good thing I bailed on my class 4 training after spending thousands to take a full time job where I am now!

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:28 am

Cat Driver wrote:
" Nothing... yet. But TC makes it very clear on how they view this sort of ownership activity, as well as the idea of "freelance" instructing. Currently they're looking at making freelancers a lot less profitable unless they'd be charging Cat Driver type rates to fund their freelance operation. "
I am not a freelance flight instructor.

I do not even have a flight instructor rating as it lapsed 42 years ago.

I only give advanced flight instruction to licensed pilots.

Therefore there is nothing in the regulations whereby TC can have any say in what I do.

I know that and you know that Cat, I was merely using your rate scale as an example to what a freelance instructor might have to charge to make doing freelance instruction profitable for themselves. I believe in a previous topic you mentioned your usual rate of $400/ hr?

There is provision in the regs for pilots who are not instructors to give training to other licenced pilots in the areas of type conversion and such. Such training (and hence what you do) would not be considered "freelancing" at least in the eyes of TC - especially when they themselves usually need the services of such individuals so qualified to keep their own personell up to snuff...

So don't worry Cat, they're not out to get you... at least in this particular instance.

Who they are out to get is the aforementioned Class 3, 2 and 1 instructor rating holders giving ab initio training towards rec permits and PPLs. They'll approach this in typical fashion and not directly adress the issue (thus being helpfull in letting the rest of us in on their concerns, so we all might get to a mutually beneficial arrangement) but to sneak in extra costs and fees to make the process as difficult as possible so no one bothers with the trouble.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:48 am

Yup, Shiney side I am aware you understand the issue.

But here may lie part of your problem:

" A class three can freelance, provided the student, (or one of their family members) owns the a/c. An a/c from a 3rd party can be used as long as the instruction isn't towards the RPP or PPL. This may change in the future. The impetus for the change isn't coming internally from TC, but instead from ATAC (thats to say ATAC is putting pressure on TC for the reg changes). "

I just happen to have had a fair amount of opportunity to communicate with one of their top people, the results were depressing to say the least.

The mindset of ATAC and the mindset of TCCA flight training department is a mirror image of incompetence and arrogance, usually I am fairly quick to find a word to describe these associations between groups......hhmmmm....incestuous???

"Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
in·ces·tu·ous /ɪnˈsɛstʃuəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-ses-choo-uhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. involving incest.
2. guilty of incest.
3. being so close or intimate as to prevent proper functioning: an incestuous relationship between organized crime and government.

electraguy · Post by **electraguy** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:28 pm

You just said cheap and flying in the same sentence. Unfortunatly there is no "cheap" way to do a CPL and MIFR. Sounds like you better be looking for some better employment or the dreaded "student loan". I hear they are looking for lots of oilfield workers out here in Alberta. Thats how I paid for alot of mine. If ya wanna play with the big boys, ya gotta get dirty, or go deep in debt!

27pilot · Post by **27pilot** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:22 am

But oilfield is slow right now. Wait a while and see how things go this summer.