Kyoto and General Aviation.
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Kyoto and General Aviation.
Ok, the Harper government is announcing a bunch of different initiatives to reduce greenhouse gases. My concern is that aviation as a whole, and general aviation in particular could wind up taking some heat from the green movement. Just thought I'd open up the topic for debate.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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Wingtip, you missed lible."Debate" or hurling unfounded insults and name calling?? That is more your style isn't it mcrit?
This was from mcrit this AM on the training forum.
That is flat out untrue and lible.Cat, there is a fellow by the name of Bob Read that wrote this
Quote:
. and his crew kept trying to run the left engine without oil pressure.. I fired him for that (and for other irregularities, no current medical and no US type rating as was required for my insurance..).
here
[/url] http://www.ruudleeuw.com/uk2003.htm[/url]
Seems pretty straight forward, you got canned.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Shot In The Dark:
I suspect that the critter got beat up a lot at recess, and harbours an amazing resentment towards the rest of the human race about it. It's a bit frightening that someone with that much pent-up anger and hostility is in control of any motorized vehicle. I wouldn't let him push my lawnmower.
I suspect that the critter got beat up a lot at recess, and harbours an amazing resentment towards the rest of the human race about it. It's a bit frightening that someone with that much pent-up anger and hostility is in control of any motorized vehicle. I wouldn't let him push my lawnmower.
Here's a ray of hope on a serious note to the topic. Sir Richard Branson is requesting that airliners start burning sulphur enriched jet fuel. Now chemistry was too long ago, but the by-products of burning sulphur, while nasty at ground level, have the potential to reflect sunlight when injected into the upper flight levels, thus countering the 'global warming'. The only problem with this, which I've seen in numerous science articles, is that as we clean up the smog and other low level pollution, the upper level pollution will reduce the amount of heat the ground receives, and then we all have to wear sweaters..., I hate sweaters...
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Dust Devil
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Oh my freakin christflyer wrote:Here's a ray of hope on a serious note to the topic. Sir Richard Branson is requesting that airliners start burning sulphur enriched jet fuel. Now chemistry was too long ago, but the by-products of burning sulphur, while nasty at ground level, have the potential to reflect sunlight when injected into the upper flight levels, thus countering the 'global warming'. The only problem with this, which I've seen in numerous science articles, is that as we clean up the smog and other low level pollution, the upper level pollution will reduce the amount of heat the ground receives, and then we all have to wear sweaters..., I hate sweaters...
The science is sound in principle, and Richard Branson is certainly not the first to suggest this. Much like Al Gore, a famous face takes the work of scientists over years and tries to pass it off as his own brilliant vision and work.flyer wrote:Here's a ray of hope on a serious note to the topic. Sir Richard Branson is requesting that airliners start burning sulphur enriched jet fuel. Now chemistry was too long ago, but the by-products of burning sulphur, while nasty at ground level, have the potential to reflect sunlight when injected into the upper flight levels, thus countering the 'global warming'. The only problem with this, which I've seen in numerous science articles, is that as we clean up the smog and other low level pollution, the upper level pollution will reduce the amount of heat the ground receives, and then we all have to wear sweaters..., I hate sweaters...
Anyhow, there is active research along these lines occuring.
The scale of such a project would be immense, and if you google it you will find many conspiracy websites that believe it is already taking place.
There are of course asthetic issues, say goodbye to a blue sky, and hello to a constant yellowish haze...enjoy!
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Dust Devil
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How hypocritical of these hippy whack jobs to suggest this at the same time fighting climate changehusky wrote:The science is sound in principle, and Richard Branson is certainly not the first to suggest this. Much like Al Gore, a famous face takes the work of scientists over years and tries to pass it off as his own brilliant vision and work.flyer wrote:Here's a ray of hope on a serious note to the topic. Sir Richard Branson is requesting that airliners start burning sulphur enriched jet fuel. Now chemistry was too long ago, but the by-products of burning sulphur, while nasty at ground level, have the potential to reflect sunlight when injected into the upper flight levels, thus countering the 'global warming'. The only problem with this, which I've seen in numerous science articles, is that as we clean up the smog and other low level pollution, the upper level pollution will reduce the amount of heat the ground receives, and then we all have to wear sweaters..., I hate sweaters...
Anyhow, there is active research along these lines occuring.
The scale of such a project would be immense, and if you google it you will find many conspiracy websites that believe it is already taking place.
There are of course asthetic issues, say goodbye to a blue sky, and hello to a constant yellowish haze...enjoy!
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invertedattitude
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The sulphur emmisions may do something to reduce the amount of sunlight getting in, but they are going to play hell with acid rain and the ozone layer. When I started this thread I was thinking more along the lines of GA making a really big target for the green movement in that they could present us as a large source of unnecessary carbon emissions.
Well, besides the push to remove lead from avgas, there's also updating engine technology, the new diesels and a variety of efficient engines in the experimental/kit plane categories. I don't think GA will be targeted by anyone important, when there's the big, bad money making commercial airlines. As far as I'm concerned, where there's a will, there's a way to clean things up to an acceptable level and it shouldn't mean parking anything. I would doubt that all of GA together pollutes as much as any given cities worth of vehicles.
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Golden Flyer
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Well, one thing is for sure.... Fuel change will start with the aviation industry. I've just seen a report by the U.S. government, where they are willing to invest in this start. Governments shed too much money into aviation to take another hit. They cannot risk having the aviation industry through another drought.
"Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible"
Edward Vernon Rickenbacker
All Pilots & Prospective Pilots Should Have Read:
http://walter.freefuelforever.com
Walter Gilles
Emirates: B-777
Edward Vernon Rickenbacker
All Pilots & Prospective Pilots Should Have Read:
http://walter.freefuelforever.com
Walter Gilles
Emirates: B-777
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sprucegoose
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Our goverment and enviroment minister is a joke!
If you want to know more about this check out David Suzuki's website. He makes it' quite simple on how to lighten your carbon footprint, and how to change our travelling habits. Aviation is accountable for 10% of damage in this world, and i don't know about all of you but the last 2 winters of flying, i have never experienced such horrible drastic weather.
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Chan ... travel.asp
If you want to know more about this check out David Suzuki's website. He makes it' quite simple on how to lighten your carbon footprint, and how to change our travelling habits. Aviation is accountable for 10% of damage in this world, and i don't know about all of you but the last 2 winters of flying, i have never experienced such horrible drastic weather.
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Chan ... travel.asp
I posted this elsewhere today. It applies to this discussion:
EMIRATES HITS BACK AT AL GORE
Bangkok Post, 30 April 2007
Emirates Airlines has unleashed a full-blown attack on critics of the aviation industry's role in global warming, with the airline's executive vice-chairman claiming that emissions by European cows were a greater threat than those from planes.
Writing in the airline's annual report for 2006/07 released here last week, Maurice Flanagan said: "Airlines are at the heart of the travel and tourism nexus, linking engine and airframe manufacturers, hotels, car hire, tour operators, travel agencies, connected businesses, and the communities which they serve. If the Green extremists, and their cohorts in governments and the media have their way, hundreds of thousands of jobs in the travel and tourism industry will be lost in the years ahead, against a very dodgy maybe, unsupported by any conclusive evidence, and with a tide of evidence now sweeping in the opposite direction."
Since the launch of the Stern report in the United Kingdom last year, the airline industry has become hugely defensive about its contribution to global warming.
In a recent speech in Singapore, IATA director general Giovanni Bisignani said: "Beating up on aviation for its record on the environment has become a professional sport in the UK and much of Europe."
He said IATA was "working hard to oppose short-sighted environment taxes that supposedly benefit the environment.
"The insane doubling of passenger duty in the UK adds a billion pounds to the treasury, but I cannot get an answer from the government when I ask how many trees will be planted with the cash."
However, Mr Flanagan's unusual attack raised the rhetoric to new levels.
He said: "I was at the World Economic Forum in Davos in January and was aghast at the global warming hysteria sweeping the place, with airlines being demonised for their alleged 1.4% contribution to global emissions. There is now a multi-billion-dollar industry invested in the myth that the future of the planet is at serious risk through global warming caused by what people do."
Mr Flanagan said: "The Green extremists are impervious to argument, and tend just to quote (former US Vice President) Al Gore's regrettably persuasive but fundamentally misleading 'An Inconvenient Truth' at you. Have a critical look at that film, which concludes with a forecast of a global temperature rise of 2.5 degrees Farenheit by the end of the century.
Mr Gore's phony graph, however, has steps on the vertical axis of one hundredths of a degree Fahrenheit, so that the temperature seems to shoot up out of control, instead of creeping along the bottom line as it would if presented honestly. Mr Gore cherry-picks to suit his case, for example, citing less snow on Kilimanjaro, whereas Darjeeling and the mountains of Pakistan are seeing snow for the first time in living memory.
"Mr Gore cites a few recent years in which the temperature rose, and ignores the years of global cooling after the Second World War, when more carbon emissions were pumped into the atmosphere than at any time before or since."
According to Mr Flanagan, "climate changes unpredictably, minute to minute and millennium to millennium. That's the essence of climate -- it changes. Don't just believe me about all this. Type 'Global Cooling' in your web browser and note, for example, the recent articles in The Times of India, the Canadian National Post, the Daily Telegraph and the Russian climatology scientists predicting global cooling."
Mr Flanagan said that with fuel costs now running at about 30% of a typical airline's total cost, against about 13% a few short years ago, "the airlines and manufacturers of airframes and engines could scarcely do more than they are already doing about it. In the years to 2025, airline passenger traffic is forecast to double, but aircraft movements to increase by only 2.8%, as average aircraft size significantly outpaces traffic growth. Fuel burn per passenger will fall correspondingly and the 1.4% of global emissions allegedly generated by the airlines will undoubtedly fall."
He added: "By the way, about that 1.4% -- the methane exuded by cows in Europe alone far exceeds the 1.4% of global aviation emissions."
In another development, Emirates is to launch six-a-week non-stop services from Dubai to Sao Paulo, Brazil, as of October, the first flights to South America by an Arab airline.
The flights will offer "a golden opportunity" to boost bilateral tourism flows between South America and all points on the Emirates network in Asia and the Middle East, according to Jeanine Pires, President of the Brazilian Tourist Board.
Imtiaz Muqbil is executive editor of Travel Impact Newswire, an e-mailed feature and analysis service focusing on the Asia-Pacific travel industry.
EMIRATES HITS BACK AT AL GORE
Bangkok Post, 30 April 2007
Emirates Airlines has unleashed a full-blown attack on critics of the aviation industry's role in global warming, with the airline's executive vice-chairman claiming that emissions by European cows were a greater threat than those from planes.
Writing in the airline's annual report for 2006/07 released here last week, Maurice Flanagan said: "Airlines are at the heart of the travel and tourism nexus, linking engine and airframe manufacturers, hotels, car hire, tour operators, travel agencies, connected businesses, and the communities which they serve. If the Green extremists, and their cohorts in governments and the media have their way, hundreds of thousands of jobs in the travel and tourism industry will be lost in the years ahead, against a very dodgy maybe, unsupported by any conclusive evidence, and with a tide of evidence now sweeping in the opposite direction."
Since the launch of the Stern report in the United Kingdom last year, the airline industry has become hugely defensive about its contribution to global warming.
In a recent speech in Singapore, IATA director general Giovanni Bisignani said: "Beating up on aviation for its record on the environment has become a professional sport in the UK and much of Europe."
He said IATA was "working hard to oppose short-sighted environment taxes that supposedly benefit the environment.
"The insane doubling of passenger duty in the UK adds a billion pounds to the treasury, but I cannot get an answer from the government when I ask how many trees will be planted with the cash."
However, Mr Flanagan's unusual attack raised the rhetoric to new levels.
He said: "I was at the World Economic Forum in Davos in January and was aghast at the global warming hysteria sweeping the place, with airlines being demonised for their alleged 1.4% contribution to global emissions. There is now a multi-billion-dollar industry invested in the myth that the future of the planet is at serious risk through global warming caused by what people do."
Mr Flanagan said: "The Green extremists are impervious to argument, and tend just to quote (former US Vice President) Al Gore's regrettably persuasive but fundamentally misleading 'An Inconvenient Truth' at you. Have a critical look at that film, which concludes with a forecast of a global temperature rise of 2.5 degrees Farenheit by the end of the century.
Mr Gore's phony graph, however, has steps on the vertical axis of one hundredths of a degree Fahrenheit, so that the temperature seems to shoot up out of control, instead of creeping along the bottom line as it would if presented honestly. Mr Gore cherry-picks to suit his case, for example, citing less snow on Kilimanjaro, whereas Darjeeling and the mountains of Pakistan are seeing snow for the first time in living memory.
"Mr Gore cites a few recent years in which the temperature rose, and ignores the years of global cooling after the Second World War, when more carbon emissions were pumped into the atmosphere than at any time before or since."
According to Mr Flanagan, "climate changes unpredictably, minute to minute and millennium to millennium. That's the essence of climate -- it changes. Don't just believe me about all this. Type 'Global Cooling' in your web browser and note, for example, the recent articles in The Times of India, the Canadian National Post, the Daily Telegraph and the Russian climatology scientists predicting global cooling."
Mr Flanagan said that with fuel costs now running at about 30% of a typical airline's total cost, against about 13% a few short years ago, "the airlines and manufacturers of airframes and engines could scarcely do more than they are already doing about it. In the years to 2025, airline passenger traffic is forecast to double, but aircraft movements to increase by only 2.8%, as average aircraft size significantly outpaces traffic growth. Fuel burn per passenger will fall correspondingly and the 1.4% of global emissions allegedly generated by the airlines will undoubtedly fall."
He added: "By the way, about that 1.4% -- the methane exuded by cows in Europe alone far exceeds the 1.4% of global aviation emissions."
In another development, Emirates is to launch six-a-week non-stop services from Dubai to Sao Paulo, Brazil, as of October, the first flights to South America by an Arab airline.
The flights will offer "a golden opportunity" to boost bilateral tourism flows between South America and all points on the Emirates network in Asia and the Middle East, according to Jeanine Pires, President of the Brazilian Tourist Board.
Imtiaz Muqbil is executive editor of Travel Impact Newswire, an e-mailed feature and analysis service focusing on the Asia-Pacific travel industry.
bmc
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Dust Devil
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It's funny that people who care about their childrens future are called hippies and green extremists.
It's also funny to see big business get so defensive about the future of their products.. do people not think there is big bucks in green energy and business? Imagine how much money can be made in developing and building engines that don't use as much waste? It's called new technology, and as far as big business, it's the way of the future, and instead of crying like a little baby and blaming Al gore (who just states facts, it's nothing new), get your asses in gear and start investing.
Just do your part as best as you can.
It's also funny to see big business get so defensive about the future of their products.. do people not think there is big bucks in green energy and business? Imagine how much money can be made in developing and building engines that don't use as much waste? It's called new technology, and as far as big business, it's the way of the future, and instead of crying like a little baby and blaming Al gore (who just states facts, it's nothing new), get your asses in gear and start investing.
Just do your part as best as you can.
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Dust Devil
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- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:55 am
- Location: Riderville
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5859226455V1 wrote:It's funny that people who care about their childrens future are called hippies and green extremists.
It's also funny to see big business get so defensive about the future of their products.. do people not think there is big bucks in green energy and business? Imagine how much money can be made in developing and building engines that don't use as much waste? It's called new technology, and as far as big business, it's the way of the future, and instead of crying like a little baby and blaming Al gore (who just states facts, it's nothing new), get your asses in gear and start investing.
Just do your part as best as you can.
I can't see any way that GA and aviation and general can avoid taking a lot of heat in the global warming debate, and frankly I think we deserve it. Some people may say that GA is no worse that recreational snowmobiling/ATVing, but I think those passtimes deserve some criticism too. Don't get me wrong, I love flying and neither love nor money could get me to give it up, but something does need to be done. I think anyone in the "just stop flying" category is out to lunch, but realistic technical solutions are possible with funding and pressure from the gov't. I believe that there's already companies out there developing/marketing jet engines designed for or converted to hydrogen fuel, and while I'm not a fan of hydrogen powered cars I could see that being a really good idea for airplanes.
BTW, Branson's idea is retarded. It might work, but I can't accept that there isn't a better way to achieve the same thing.
BTW, Branson's idea is retarded. It might work, but I can't accept that there isn't a better way to achieve the same thing.
Totally agree, which is why I'm not a fan of hydrogen cars. However, I doubt we're going to soon find an energy source/storage mechanism that achieves anything like the power density that fossil fuels provide. Since weight (and by extension power density) is critical on aircraft, I think hydrogen is the fuel of the future as it's at least has the potential to be totally clean (and its certainly a little cleaner than Jet A right now). The fact is unless you want nuclear powered planes, fossil fuels are what we're gonna be using for long distance transport for quite a while.
Edit: to clarify, I'm classifying hydrogen as a fossil fuel because certain aspects of it are very similar.
Edit: to clarify, I'm classifying hydrogen as a fossil fuel because certain aspects of it are very similar.
