9/11: Missing Black Boxes in World Trade Center

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:21 am

9/11: Missing Black Boxes in World Trade Center
Friday, June 01, 2007

One of the more puzzling mysteries of 9-11 is what ever happened to the flight recorders of the two planes that hit the World Trade Center towers. Now it appears that they may not be missing at all.

Counterpunch has learned that the FBI has them.

Flight recorders (commonly known as black boxes, though these days they are generally bright orange) are required on all passenger planes. There are always two-a flight data recorder that keeps track of a plane's speed, altitude, course and maneuvers, and a cockpit voice recorder which keeps a continuous record of the last 30 minutes of conversation inside a plane's cockpit. These devices are constructed to be extremely durable, and are installed in a plane's tail section, where they are least likely suffer damaged on impact. They are designed to withstand up to 30 minutes of 1800-degree heat (more than they would have faced in the twin towers crashes), and to survive a crash at full speed into the ground.

All four of the devices were recovered from the two planes that hit the Pentagon and that crashed in rural Pennsylvania. In the case of American Airlines Flight 77, which hit the Pentagon, the FBI reports that the flight data recorder survived and had recoverable information, but the voice recorder was allegedly too damaged to provide any record. In the case of United Airlines Flight 93, which hit the ground at 500 mph in Pennsylvania, the situation was reversed: the voice recorder survived but the flight data box was allegedly damaged beyond recovery.

But the FBI states, and also reported to the 9-11 Commission, that none of the recording devices from the two planes that hit the World Trade Center were ever recovered.

There has always been some skepticism about this assertion, particularly as two N.Y. City firefighters, Mike Bellone and Nicholas De Masi, claimed in 2004 that they had found three of the four boxes, and that Federal agents took them and told the two men not to mention having found them. (The FBI denies the whole story.) Moreover, these devices are almost always located after crashes, even if not in useable condition (and the cleanup of the World Trade Center was meticulous, with even tiny bone fragments and bits of human tissue being discovered so that almost all the victims were ultimately identified). As Ted Lopatkiewicz, director of public affairs at the National Transportation Safety Agency which has the job of analyzing the boxes' data, says, "It's very unusual not to find a recorder after a crash, although it's also very unusual to have jets flying into buildings."

Now there is stronger evidence that something is amiss than simply the alleged non-recovery of all four of those boxes. A source at the National Transportation Safety Board, the agency that has the task of deciphering the date from the black boxes retrieved from crash sites-including those that are being handled as crimes and fall under the jurisdiction of the FBI-says the boxes were in fact recovered and were analyzed by the NTSB.

"Off the record, we had the boxes," the source says. "You'd have to get the official word from the FBI as to where they are, but we worked on them here."

The official word from the NTSB is that the WTC crash site black boxes never turned up. "No recorders were recovered from the World Trade Center," says the NTSB's Lopatkiewicz. "At least none were delivered to us by the FBI." He adds that the agency has "always had a good relationship' with the FBI and that in all prior crime-related crashes or flight incidents, they have brought the boxes to the NTSB for analysis.

For its part, the FBI is still denying everything, though with curious bit of linguistic wiggle room. "To the best of my knowledge, the flight recording devices from the World Trade Center crashes were never recovered. At least we never had them," says FBI spokesman Stephen Kodak.

What the apparent existence of the black boxes in government hands means is unclear.

If the information in those boxes is recoverable, or if, as is likely, it has been recovered already, it could give crucial evidence regarding the skill of the hijacker/pilots, perhaps of their strategy, of whether they were getting outside help in guiding them to their targets, of how fast they were flying and a host of other things.

Why would the main intelligence and law enforcement arm of the U.S. government want to hide from the public not just the available information about the two hijacked flights that provided the motivation and justification for the nation's "War on Terror" and for its two wars against Afghanistan and Iraq, but even the fact that it has the devices which could contain that information? Conspiracy theories abound, with some claiming the planes were actually pilotless military aircraft, or that they had little or nothing to do with the building collapses. The easiest way to quash such rumors and such fevered thinking would be openness.

Instead we have the opposite: a dark secrecy that invites many questions regarding the potentially embarrassing or perhaps even sinister information that might be on those tapes.

http://www.freemarketnews.com/Analysis/ ... 4&nid=7733

FrankD · Post by **FrankD** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:37 pm

Widow,

I don't always agree with what you post but I can usually respect what you post because it's at least well thought out and you cleary firmly believe in what you are trying to accomplish, but with all due respect, and I do mean that, what the "effing" hell is the point of posting this story!?

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:51 pm

Why is it a problem for you that I should post something that is in the news, is interesting, and could provoke debate?

Am I not allowed to have interests outside of my "crusade"? Am I not allowed to post here because I don't "belong" in aviation, and therefore I don't belong on this forum?

FYI, I do have interests outside my "crusade", this is a misc/political debate/aviation humor forum, and I am a member of this site.

As someone recently suggested, maybe I just like the company of you propeller heads. You all come from very diverse backgrounds and have varying experiences which provide for, what I find, great dialogue.

Please, if you don't like what I post, just don't read it.

eternalhold · Post by **eternalhold** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:08 pm

Sorry it did look like that came across as harsh and we welcome your company here and appreciate what you're trying to do, you don't need to be a pilot to belong to this forum but FrankD does have a point every interesting news item doesn't need to be posted here no matter what the intent is.

It just gets to be excessive especially since this is avCANADA and not every international story is of interest, we hear about them and read them online or in the paper like everyone else. If you have something to say about a topic post the link and speak your mind but we don't want this to become a scrapbook of birdcage liner especially since some of us have strong feelings towards the media or how they only seem interested in sensational stories rather than getting the facts right and will do anything to get public interest and are often not there when we need them to put our situation in the spotlight or let us be heard.

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:10 pm

Widow can post anything she wants here you dunderhead!

ps - I am not a 9/11 conspiricy guy and I'd vote for GWB if I had the opportunity.

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:13 pm

well put widow. the topic of this thread was very clear from the subject line - if you don't want to read about the black boxes from 9/11 then don't click on the effin thread!

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:15 pm

I think all the conspiracy nuts are off somewhere planning something big ...

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:46 pm

I am not a conspiracy theorist either, but I often wonder how their thought processes work to take them to the crazy ideas they come up with.

Since there were people on board who managed to make cell phone calls and tell their loved ones what was happening - it isn't like there weren't hijackers, the pilotless military aircraft theory just doesn't wash at all.

What has the mainstream media said about all the recordings? ATC, CVR, FDR? Did they report on the two NYC firefighters?

CD · Post by CD » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:46 pm

cruisecontrol · Post by **cruisecontrol** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:48 pm

I'm putting my money on the one armed man something shady about that guy. No your right she can post whatever she wants these are open forums and it's up to the mods to decide what they'll accept at least she posts in the appropriate forum but it is misleading I'd prefer to read what someone has to say then a repost of a article just keeps the place orginial.

Vickers vanguard · Post by **Vickers vanguard** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:34 pm

Widow wrote: Please, if you don't like what I post, just don't read it.

.....well said

2R · Post by 2R » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:44 pm

If the FBI has them then they are not missing .What will be interesting is when they intend to release the information.
My guess would be no more than two months before the next election so that someone who appears soft on terror will not get elected.Nothing like hearing a pilot getting his throat cut to get the vote out to kill the taliban and those who would do us harm

saucer_driver · Post by **saucer_driver** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:06 pm

Like Mulder once said, "Its a conspiracy on a global scale the key players the highest levels of power."

And he was partners with Scully.....lets just say, yes.

tesox · Post by **tesox** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:24 pm

what the "effing" hell is the point of posting this story!?

Just as I was beginning to worry about the shortage of assholes on this site...

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:23 pm

Uhh..I remenber being glued to the TV that day. I remember the fire in the buildings hit by the planes. I remember the teeny tiny bits of paper, human flesh, etc., drifting over NYC.

I remember the collapse/almost total destruction of of buildings built of concrete and steel.

The "fact" that boxes of metal and whatever (CVR and FDR)are "missing"? Uh..I say AGAIN...I watched steel and concrete buildings collapse, and people disintegrate. Can a reasonable person watch that and assume the FDR or CVR would survive?

C-FABH · Post by **C-FABH** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:30 pm

lilfssister wrote:Can a reasonable person watch that and assume the FDR or CVR would survive?

In the mindset of the general public... sure

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:43 pm

On the other hand, why would these NYC Firefighters make it up? BTW, there were lots, and lots, and lots, of body parts. Not everything disintigrated.

Looks like this story was reported on long ago, but never picked up by the main stream media.

BLACK BOX COVER-UP

Rescue workers silenced after exposing 9-11 whitewash

By Greg Szymanski
Updated December 12, 2004

A 9-11 rescue worker recently came forward to say he was told by FBI agents to “keep my mouth shut” about one of the “black boxes” a fellow firefighter helped locate at ground zero, contradicting the official story that none of the flight and cockpit data recorders were ever recovered in the wreckage of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers.

Honorary firefighter Mike Bellone claims he was approached by unknown bureau agents a short time after he and his partner, Nicholas DeMasi, a retired New York firefighter, found three of the four “black boxes” among the WTC rubble before January 2002.

The pair first claimed in an August 2003 book entitled Behind the Scene: Ground Zero to have found the data recorders.

DeMasi said the “black boxes” were found while he traversed “ground zero” in his all-terrain vehicle (ATV) with three federal agents.

FBI and New York fire officials have denied ever finding the voice and data recorders.

Now Bellone claims agents were adamant about keeping the discovery a secret.

“They confronted me and told me to not to say anything,” recalled Bellone, referring to one of three reddish-orange boxes with two white stripes he saw in the back of DeMasi’s ATV. “I said, ‘Give me a good reason.’ When they couldn’t, I told them I wouldn’t shut up about it.

“Why should I? I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain. It’s the truth, and Nick and I are sticking to our story as we always have.”

Bellone said he and DeMasi were not the only 9-11 rescue workers to see the “black boxes.” He said there were several other witnesses and said he knows they have been silenced by federal agents.

“I know two or three others saw what went down, but they are not talking,” said Bellone. “They got to those guys after they talked to me. The only reason I can figure they are trying to hide the truth is that the government knows it screwed up, and the recorders would prove it.”

Asked to give names of the other witnesses, he said he wouldn’t break a fellow worker’s confidence by revealing his identity.

“I can tell you this, though, it was all very strange. I worked on the spaceship Columbia cleanup, and you know when something important is found and when something is not,” he said.

The day the “black boxes” were secretly carted away, agents acted like “something big was going down,” he added.

Bellone said he never learned the FBI agents’ names as this type of personal contact and information wasn’t exchanged between the civilian workers and government officials working side-by-side at ground zero.

“They had on their FBI jackets, but I’m sure I could pick them out of a lineup or recognize their pictures,” said Bellone.

The pair’s bombshell accusations blow a big hole in the official story as well as the findings in the recent 9-11 commission report.”

In Chapter 1, footnote 76, there is the sole but definitive reference to the airline “black boxes”: “The CVR’s and the FDR’s [voice and flight data recorders] from American 11 and United 175 were not found.”

Asked if DeMasi and Bellone were questioned or subpoenaed, commission spokesman Al Felzenberg said: “I can’t tell you now if he was one of the 1,200 people we interviewed or if the book was one of the countless ones we researched. We explored every lead, but I will try to find out if we talked with him and get back to you.”

Bellone said commission members never contacted him or DeMasi and never asked the two to appear before the group even though the book was published well before the hearings commenced.

“I have been contacted by only one newspaper reporter, from The Philadelphia Daily News,” said Bellone, referring to an October 2004 story by reporter William Bunch, who recapped DeMasi’s statements as well as the usual official denials.

Those close to the 9-11 investigation said the recovery of the “black boxes” is important because they may hold vital clues about what really happened on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001.

The cockpit voice recorder uses a pair of microphones to capture all cockpit sounds for the last 30 minutes of a doomed flight. The flight data recorder is also significant since it records altitude, heading and airspeed.

Both recorders are designed to withstand enormous impact and heat. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) officials said they should have withstood the conditions at the WTC.

And finding the boxes after a crash seems to be standard procedure, according to the NTSB.

“It’s extremely rare that we don’t get the recorders back,’ said NTSB spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz. “I can’t remember another case which we did not recover the recorders.”

Bellone is retired and was made an honorary New York fireman for his efforts after 9-11. DeMasi has recently retired from Engine Co. 261, nicknamed the “Flaming Skulls.”

Not Copyrighted. Readers can reprint and are free to redistribute - as long as full credit is given to American Free Press - 645 Pennsylvania Avenue SE, Suite 100 Washington, D.C. 20003

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/black_box.html

ettw · Post by **ettw** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:59 pm

What will be interesting is when they intend to release the information.

The same year they release the remains of JFK's brain that was removed at "autopsy"

Cheers,

ETTW

swede · Post by **swede** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:25 pm

Yeah, where are the black boxes??? Gee - I never really gave it any thought but now that you post this, I wonder

. Don't forget, every last one of them from 911 is gone, never seen or analized. But its ok folks, just have some more kool-aid cause its all just a big coincidence.
I may be mistaken, seems that there may have been some tapes from whatever piled into the dirt in pennsylvania on 911, I think it was the cell phone converstations from the 757 traveling at mach.73 while 2000 ft off the deck - cells work well under those conditions

http://www.truthera.com/2007/05/27/rare ... only-once/

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:49 pm

Swede...who do you still trust?

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:59 pm

I think most of those calls from Flight 93 came from those airphones in the back of the seats, not cell phones. They knew about the other three planes going down before they were lost.

Anybody remember the "white jet" that was seen by several witnesses?

swede · Post by **swede** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:26 pm

Both recorders are designed to withstand enormous impact and heat. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) officials said they should have withstood the conditions at the WTC.

And finding the boxes after a crash seems to be standard procedure, according to the NTSB.

“It’s extremely rare that we don’t get the recorders back,’ said NTSB spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz. “I can’t remember another case which we did not recover the recorders.”

This must be another set of amazing coincidences. 911 was just chocker block full of em.

In response to trust, I would trust the rev jones about as far as i trust the offical version of 911 and anyone who believes it.

CD · Post by CD » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:42 am

It is possible to find anything on the internet these days to support a theory...

9/11 "black box" cover-up at Ground Zero? -- a Campaign Extra!/PDN exclusive
9/11: Missing Black Boxes in World Trade Center Attacks Found by Firefighters, Analyzed by NTSB, Concealed by FBI
9/11 "black box" cover-up at Ground Zero?
Black Boxes: found at the Pentagon, WTC and Pennsylvania

Mclovin · Post by **Mclovin** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:48 am

Watch the movie "Loose Change". It's a documentry on 9/11 on how it was a government conspiracy. I just watched it this week and it made me ask a lot of questions about 9/11. It's a very good watch and might just change the way you look at 9/11.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:54 am

lilfssister wrote: The "fact" that boxes of metal and whatever (CVR and FDR)are "missing"? Uh..I say AGAIN...I watched steel and concrete buildings collapse, and people disintegrate. Can a reasonable person watch that and assume the FDR or CVR would survive?

The hijackers passport did.

The story is about halfway down on this link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1546927.stm