Bad postion reports

cruisecontrol · Post by **cruisecontrol** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:05 pm

Could be my imagination but it seems like I've been hearing more of them being made in relation to wierd points like fire watch towers or camps or even a farm I'm glad they're being made but it's of little use to the out of towners if its based on local knowledge of the area. I had one helicopter zip about a half mile off my nose and about 900 agl transiting the zone while I was entering the circuit no calls on the ATF other then one on 126.7 about 8 minutes before saying he was about 4 east of one tower going to another.

P180 · Post by **P180** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:55 pm

cruisecontrol wrote:Could be my imagination but it seems like I've been hearing more of them being made in relation to wierd points like fire watch towers or camps or even a farm I'm glad they're being made but it's of little use to the out of towners if its based on local knowledge of the area. I had one helicopter zip about a half mile off my nose and about 900 agl transiting the zone while I was entering the circuit no calls on the ATF other then one on 126.7 about 8 minutes before saying he was about 4 east of one tower going to another.

Well if you are going to CYAM check out the WAL-MART fix.Its right over a Wal-mart on the U.S. side.So now you know where that one is. NEXT

Ralliart · Post by **Ralliart** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:08 pm

If you don't know where it is they have reported, why not ask them for clarification rather than sitting on your hands and waiting to meet them head on?

I Like Myself · Post by **I Like Myself** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:11 pm

I agree with you cruisecontrol.
I can't stand poor or just plain wrong position reports.
A student form my own flying school came way to close for my liking because of the completely wrong position report she gave a while ago.

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:01 pm

As another pilot the only info you really get out of most position reports people love to broadcast is that they're on the frequency, and watch out for them. In the end, keep your own eyes peeled and worry about your own airplane. If you can't see anyone who you're going to run into then chances are you're safe. Unfortunately there's always the chance some idiot might be incoming from your 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock high or low who isn't paying attention in which case hope that you hear them coming, otherwise your number just happens to be up.

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:53 pm

Having just spent 10 days in Quebec, the other thing about position reports is to keep them slow and simple. Nothing worse than leaving an airport en route to a fire, and having some local rip through a report in Quebecois so fast that you can barely catch the reg. The same is true in English, too..

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:03 am

I am so accustomed to the IFR world that I also have a problem adjusting to the VFR types local knowledge position reports.
Helicopters and floaters are the worst offenders.
Almost as bad as some of the posters on this thread. Do posters ever proof read what they have written? I have problems with my typing and sometimes miss letters but I still try to proof read and add punctuation.
Now get into a noisey airplane in a busy situation and attempt to quickly decipher what is being said.
I have found that, as a general rule, most of Air Canada's senior pilots, and you can tell by voice, have impecable RT procedures. They annunciate clearly, use accepted phraseoligy and procedures and display a professional attitude so it pays to listen. That is not to say other airline pilots are bad but over the years I found that Air Canada pilots tend to be a bit above the rest. Must be the training they recieve.

rfcPilot · Post by **rfcPilot** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:14 am

Well, how would you like a position report to be like? Its very hard for someone not knowledgeable of the region to know where aircraft are.

In our practice area, position reports are made stating a location usually between two towns, or bodies of water (lakes, rivers), or a mix. For someone from out of the region, how much time will they have to spend looking over their VNC to identify the location that the call came from?

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:12 am

Kinda like IFR guys giving position reports based on radials off a VOR that I have no way of finding in my piston Beaver.

eternalhold · Post by **eternalhold** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:44 am

rfcpilot there are exceptions to every rule and a practice area would be one of them. No one should enter unless they are a participant and if they are training there chances are there is either an instructor on board or they know the area well enough to understand what the othe a/c are talking about.

If not ask for clarification and ultimately avoid the area for the time being, the latter being my least favorite option howeverI've done it because some joker is giving conflicting information.

Position reports have a purpose and should be treated as such, saying everything so fast that most of it is missed is useless and ties up the frequency if somebody actually wants it repeated I think the topic of this issue is make them relevant to listeners and make them count.

raven54 · Post by **raven54** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:59 am

The ol' GPS just might come in handy there.

Chuck U Farley · Post by **Chuck U Farley** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:05 pm

Sorry Phillyfan, but you as a vfr pilot shoul know were the VOR's are. With that knowledge you should have a rough estimate as to where the person is. The Ifr driver has no idea where xyz lake, camp, bridge ect... is even if they have the VNC on thier lap. Please all you vfr drivers please make your calls in reference to a position that all planes in the area should know of or could very easily find.

SierraPoppa · Post by **SierraPoppa** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:06 pm

Can I ask a favour of all you VFR types?

When you make a report over something could you be sure you are over it as in it is directly beneath you. Not that the object whatever it is has disappeared from view beneath the nose of the aircraft.

It makes a difference, sometimes of a couple of miles.

Thanks from an old retired controller.

rfcPilot · Post by **rfcPilot** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:50 pm

., VFR pilots arent expected to know all about VORs. I knew what they were, and what they looked like on the map. Wasnt until night rating that I knew about them. VORs, ADFs, and other navaids are just not part of the PPL training.

lyncher · Post by **lyncher** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:56 pm

but in PPL training you do learn how to use a VNC and calculate distances from a navaid right?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:03 pm

Jeeses H Kreist....are pilots really this dumb?

sanjet · Post by **sanjet** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:30 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Jeeses H Kreist....are pilots really this dumb?

And they're going into a right seat of an RJ

skycoupe · Post by **skycoupe** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:43 pm

Shiny Side Up wrote:Unfortunately there's always the chance some idiot might be incoming from your 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock high or low who isn't paying attention in which case hope that you hear them coming, otherwise your number just happens to be up.

Wow .. nice attitude

El Comat · Post by **El Comat** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:44 pm

haha.....cpl_atc, I was waiting for that one. But as long as you throw "any conflicting please advise" you're 100% safe. Everyone knows pilots aren't smart enough to single-handedly key the mic to resolve a conflict; we must be prompted!! Not bashing the green team here, just useless chatter in general.

EC

YACdirect · Post by **YACdirect** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:19 pm

oldtimer wrote:Helicopters and floaters are the worst offenders.

I had a whole rant typed up, but to hell with it.

Float pilots are idiots anyway.

YACdirect · Post by **YACdirect** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:20 pm

cpl_atc wrote:
How about "Traffic 30nm south of Island Lake", or "Traffic 40 north of God's Narrows..."

Because their GPS is already set to YWG, duh

skycoupe · Post by **skycoupe** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:25 pm

YACdirect wrote:
oldtimer wrote:
Float pilots are idiots anyway.

Nice

Strega · Post by **Strega** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:00 pm

cpl_atc wrote:Perimeter still takes the cake for the world's most useless position reports.

"Traffic 180nm north of Winnipeg, Perimeter 932 is..."

Note to Perimeter: Not everyone flies around with their GPS set to YWG so that they can make some sense of your reports.

How about "Traffic 30nm south of Island Lake", or "Traffic 40 north of God's Narrows..."

The best way to deal reports like this are to give a BS reply" Traffic calling 180 north of ywg, I'm 30 nw of ypl.. should be no conflict"

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:29 pm

First of all I did not say helicopter and floaters are idiots, I said they seem to be the ones who always give their position as over some local landmark that means little or nothing to the IFR types or people new to the area. Why not just give an estimate of how far and what CARDINAL direction you are FROM THE FRIGGEN AIRPORT. IS THAT SO DAMN DIFFICULT.
This is not exactly rocket science and to answer Chucks remark, yes, I am afraid that some of the posters are that dumb. Comes from having some 250 hr wannaby "building time for the jet job" by instructing. How can you teach someone to fly when you are still wet behind the ears yourself. It is a sad state of affairs but I kinda looked into the instructing gig as a part time retirement project but I would have to work for illegal immigrant wages so you really cannot lay all the blame on the flight instructors.
One of the best comebacks I heard was from an American cowboy (as in profession, not the way he flew.) from Dodge City Kansas. He was VFR so he called Calgary tower south of the city for landing instructions and was told to report over "The White Tanks" (Two oil tanks that were quite visible S,E. of the airport.)
Calgary tower "Novenber bla bla bla, what is your position?"
November bla bla bla "I am over the turkey farm"
Calgary Tower "November bla bla bla, where is the turkey farm"
November bla bla bal "You tell me where those white tanks are and I will tell you where this turkey farm is"
"Laugher and expletive deleted"

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:17 am

Yes, Cat, I think they really are this stupid. :/

Bad postion reports

Bad postion reports

Re: Bad postion reports