RE: Crosswind on floats

[Blue Side Down]

Another question after a windy day in Red.


Excluding all other details (we're on a wide open lake for this situation):

At what wind speed, or gust speed, will you go out of your way to taxi the extra distance to take a full on headwind for takeoff?






(...I know that those are sort of two different situations... vote most appropriate or multiple times)

[floatman]

(1 through 4 are rhetorical questions)

1.What aircraft are you flying?
2.What is your experience level?
3.What is the load?
4.How much room have you got?
5.Why, in god's name if you even have to think about "going out of your way to taxi the extra distance" would you not JUST DO IT!!

You are obviously not a very experienced float driver and my suggestion to you is this: For the next 500 hours, stop asking these questions on AvCanada and start trusting your gut and start "going out of your way" for safety's sake before you kill yourself or someone else

The fact that this is a "poll" and that some people have actually voted on it makes me hope that these particular folks are not carrying passengers in commerical ops in floatplanes.

[twotter]

You forgot to add in the 30kt option.. I used to take 30 all the time when it was blowing out of the west in Male..

[Cat Driver]

Blue Side Down:

For what ever it is worth I see no problem with your asking questions on avcanada as many of us here are quite happy to answer as best we can.

This last poll you put up is a little vague but the general intent is valid.

Here was the problem in how it was asked:

At what wind speed, or gust speed, will you go out of your way to taxi the extra distance to take a full on headwind for takeoff?

The best answer would be is the X/wind 5 degrees off the take off path or 90 degrees off the take off path and then it would also have a lot to do with many other factors not the least being what kind of an aircraft is it and how heavy is it loaded.

Anyhow keep asking questions and remember when in doubt " don't "

[Rudder Bug]

May I suggest a hint?

When operating from huge body of water, lets say too long to backtrack the whole thing, where or when have you reach sufficient runway lenght for a safe climb out?

Most seaplanes taxi at a ground speed of about 6 kts, or one mile per 10 minutes. That works fine, just look at your watch. You'd like two miles, go 20 mins.

[. ._]

What about step taxiing? Assuming the engine is up to temps. Or is that not kosher when backtracking?

-istp

[Rudder Bug]

Istp,

I had the strong gusty winds in mind when I wrote that, so didn't think of going on the step downwind...

[glorifiedtaxidriver]

Most seaplanes taxi at a ground speed of about 6 kts, or one mile per 10 minutes. That works fine, just look at your watch. You'd like two miles, go 20 mins.

Theoretically yes, but if the tide's running towards you at 6 knots...

Lots of places on the coast where you have no choice but to take a 20 kt crosswind or tailwind - or at least start with one before you can make a step turn more into wind. I'd spend all day taxiing if I worried about anything up to 15-20.

[Blue Side Down]

True, yes I realize that my question is vauge and sort of a typical hand-waving query... I'm trying to put together the logic in my mind some of the events I saw the other day.

In a majortiy of cases, aircraft took off directly into the wind- we had 14g22 or so; but there were a few incidences that aircraft's departure paths were such that a strong, gusty crosswind was dealt with on the run. One specific example of this was a Cessna type, whereas the Otters I saw all positioned themselves to take on much less crosswind. I can see how there may be a correleation between decision making and expereince there, but that's an assumption. All I know is that when I was out and about that morning, it went with brief thought how I would line up each takeoff and landing- there was only one right way in my book.

Associated to this ponderance is an accident report I came across a few days ago re a 185 that flipped over early in the takeoff run on what sounded like a similar day. According to the report, the pilot applied takeoff power before the aircraft had finished weathercocking into the wind; the downwind float dug; and over they went.

I realize that there's a certain amount of PDM that goes into every action, and appreciate the value of due caution and following a 'gut instinct when facing a twist in what is normal (thanks floatman, we all appreciate gems like that)- though I wonder if there is some wisdom on managing winds out there that I've yet to encounter.

Thanks for the responses... much appreciated.
Keep the blue side down.

[Blue Side Down]

What about step taxiing? Assuming the engine is up to temps. Or is that not kosher when backtracking?

-istp

Thanks for mentioning this istp... been wondering the same:

How common is step taxiing to the departure point? In my experience/ training, the wind is either strong enough that a long, slow taxi to the departure point is appropriate (slow, ie. to prevent picking up water), or it's light enough that you can pick the path of least resistance and go: if conditions permit, downwind.

Thoughts?

[twotter]

If you can step taxi with whatever the wind is, you can take-off with it so why bother step taxiing when you can just take-off? The only time that will come into play is if there is insufficient room and you are just going downwind or crosswind to make enough..

BTW.. 14G22 isn't going to stop a lot of commercial floatplanes from taking off in any direction..

[floatman]

True, yes I realize that my question is vauge and sort of a typical hand-waving query... I'm trying to put together the logic in my mind some of the events I saw the other day.

In a majortiy of cases, aircraft took off directly into the wind- we had 14g22 or so; but there were a few incidences that aircraft's departure paths were such that a strong, gusty crosswind was dealt with on the run. One specific example of this was a Cessna type, whereas the Otters I saw all positioned themselves to take on much less crosswind. I can see how there may be a correleation between decision making and expereince there, but that's an assumption. All I know is that when I was out and about that morning, it went with brief thought how I would line up each takeoff and landing- there was only one right way in my book.

Associated to this ponderance is an accident report I came across a few days ago re a 185 that flipped over early in the takeoff run on what sounded like a similar day. According to the report, the pilot applied takeoff power before the aircraft had finished weathercocking into the wind; the downwind float dug; and over they went.

I realize that there's a certain amount of PDM that goes into every action, and appreciate the value of due caution and following a 'gut instinct when facing a twist in what is normal (thanks floatman, we all appreciate gems like that)- though I wonder if there is some wisdom on managing winds out there that I've yet to encounter.

Thanks for the responses... much appreciated.
Keep the blue side down.

WTF ??!!??

Here's a GEM for ya... you sound like The Professor from Gilligan's Island and if I heard you talking that shit while standing on your dock.. I'd ask for a dog-sled . What the hell is "normal" when it comes to flying floatplanes in the bush? "Hand waving query" Did you pick that one up from Her Royal Anus.. the Queen? "pick the path of least resistance" which path is that? anyone but through the trees?
I stand by my first ill-mannered, un-provoked, arrogant rant... that poll cannot be answered without qualifying it with 15 other criteria....

Let it rip boys. I've got my leather skin on... Better yet just ignore me.. maybe I'll go away.... Fucking Path of least resistance... HA!.. that's the best yet .. This is our future bush pilot???? oh GOD!!!why I oughtta

A---SS---HO---LE...... I'm an ASSHOLE.... sing it with me...

[Rudder Bug]

A---SS---HO---LE...... I'm an ASSHOLE.... sing it with me...

He's just a low-timer asking questions for his own safety. Why are you getting rude? Did you ever train some pilots?

If you can step taxi with whatever the wind is, you can take-off

Kind of right Twotter!

[CLguy]

Istp wrote:

What about step taxiing? Assuming the engine is up to temps. Or is that not kosher when backtracking?

No step taxiing while backtracking for takeoff is not kosher. Please don't ever do that. First it looks really unprofessional and secondly you could overheat your engine and also why would be you beat the floats step taxiing downwind when you could just add more power and take off. If it is not too windy to step taxi downwind then it is not too windy to takeoff downwind.

Remember you can just as easily lose control step taxiing downwind as you can taking off in gusty conditions.

[floatman]

Udder Bug... I'm the asshole..

And you're absolutely right.. it was rude

Although I agree there is some good questions being asked here and some valuable information being passed on which we all know is the point of all of this.. My point.. way back when.. was that it semed to me that a pilot flying commercially in Red Lake was asking questions that seemed more fit for that of a student who has just been exposed to floats for the first time, not one who will be flying my mother or yours. If I have ASS-umed incorrectly.. we know who the ASS is..

[. ._]

Istp wrote:

What about step taxiing? Assuming the engine is up to temps. Or is that not kosher when backtracking?

No step taxiing while backtracking for takeoff is not kosher. Please don't ever do that. First it looks really unprofessional and secondly you could overheat your engine and also why would be you beat the floats step taxiing downwind when you could just add more power and take off. If it is not too windy to step taxi downwind then it is not too windy to takeoff downwind.

Remember you can just as easily lose control step taxiing downwind as you can taking off in gusty conditions.

There we go! The answer I was looking for. That makes sense.

Thanks!

-istp

[phillyfan]

I have always kind of gone with, if I can taxi and get into wind I will. if I am in a spot where I can't, I take the crosswind. The real key is don't be in a rush you can make up the time somewhere else in the day.

[Cat Driver]

Fools rush in where angels fear to thread..

[Blown Juggs]

I'll take the X-wind any time as long as my initial climb out is into wind

[dhcharlie-2]

My opinion in regards to step-taxiing...Some lakes/rivers have only one approach/departure route, and you cannot always take off exactly from where you've dropped off or picked up your passengers/freight. Or maybe you have to taxi to the other side of the lake after dropping off your charter, to a fuel cache or something, where a normal taxi would take forever, a t/o and landing would be very short and busy, but a step-taxi would work out quite nicely. Obviously certain factors must be considered, ie: wind direction and speed, strong quartering tailwinds (bad, make plane go squirrely ), smooth/rough water, any possible water damage to prop(s), OAT and engine cooling, you could go on and on. Of course type of a/c is another factor. Sometimes you have no choice but to go slow. When in doubt, err on the side of caution. An obvious statement, but there's alot of pressures out there. I'm not personally in a lot of situations that warrant a step-taxi, but in the right conditions I see nothing wrong with them, and I use them.

In regards to a crosswind or quartering headwind, I find the the velocity of the crosswind (within reason) to not be so much of an issue for me personally. In places it's unavoidable, part of the job. Don't get me wrong...I still give a crosswind its due respect. What does get my attention though (as said above) is a quartering tailwind. Depends on what kind of load I have and how strong the wind is (each situation is different) and whether or not it's gusting, but it's a situation where you have to be right on top of what's going on, if not before it.

That's alot more than I meant to write. Anyway, my personal preference...and my 2 cents.

[dhcharlie-2]

A quick add-on to things to consider when step-taxiing...do you know exactly where you're going and what exactly is 1 inch - 3 feet below the surface of the water and where exactly that sandbar or outcrop of rocks is?

[Dog]

I shouldn't touch this one... I'm with Twotter: 30 isn't out of the question especially with a twin. Then again you'ld have to be magic to get an Otter pointed that way long enough get on the step... I don't think I would go more than twenty in a 185... too many variables.

And no, don't step taxi downwind. I hate step taxiing other than to strech out a landing a little closer to a dock. I figure the day I finally cork a float with a log I will be step taxiing.

[Driving Rain]

One senario that's got more than a few pilots over the years is starting a take-off run in a sheltered bay. The conditions are calm but unfortunately the distance required is greater that the bay provides so they come roaring out of the bay to be meet by a strong 90 degree x-wind. First the wind swirls back around the last point of land as a tail wind a few feet later it's a cross wind. Horizontal wind sheer is one of the biggest killers of float pilots. I've seen 3 accidents caused by this over the years. Every aircraft flipped and sank. It seems simple enough ... know the conditions for you entire take-off and climb out.

[fogghorn]

Generally speaking, you should not have to land xwind on floats, unless you're in certain circumstances on the coast and flying the right airplane. A good example was the slough at Masset. In a northwest you had to land in the slough which is at right angles to the wind, the worst I took in there was 25 or so kts in a -6 with no problem. Would I do it in a 185, not on your life, maybe 10- 15. That's mainly cause you could snag a wing, which I watched a guy do in that exact spot and get away with it. Also, you need the differential power after both floats are down, thats why the -6 is so superior in those conditions. You also obviously have to land parallel to swells on the coast and that is irrespective of wind, so you better know the limits.

[B18rules]

in regards to step taxiing down wind just go to the hangar and ask the smallest guy there how he feels about being inside a float on the wrong end of a rivet gun.